combat squading. to do or not to do?

[Grand Master Caloth]

Don't you think that's more than a little rude, IJ? You can't make that claim that he's in the minority cause you don't know every single player of 40k. While you and others may not agree with him, how many others that only ghost in threads might be on his side? I'm nit saying either of you are right, I'm calling you out for dancing in the edge of incivility.

 

On topic, I have never been a mech player, mainly due to my own personal underwhelment of the rhino chassis. I love predators, but I love my knights more. Lol. With the new edition, however, I may have to try

[IndigoJack]

What I said was rude, and may even have been borderline uncivil, but I stand by it. The last time I discussed this topic with him during 6th, I listed quite a few blogs from GT winners and frequent top 16 players concerning transports in 6th as viable. Vehicles only got better in 7th, you can argue how much, but the fact is, they did improve. It's not a large leap in logic to assume that something that worked in 6th and improved in 7th, is better in 7th.

 

I have no problem with is opinion. I respect it. It's informed by his own reading of the rules and his personal experience in the game. What I have a problem with, is that every time someone mentions using a transport, he feels compelled to tell them that transports are terrible. Not because he has had bad luck with them, or his local meta is heavily geared towards AT, but like the rhino and razorback are the pyrovores of the GK codex. The title of this thread is "combat squading to do or not to do?" yet at the mere mention of a dedicated transport, RD steps in and has to mention that transports are terrible. And yes, I realize my own hippocracy in continuing the derailment of this thread.

 

The very reason I vehemently deny RD's position is because of those people ghosting in threads and new people to the forums. RD is not only a moderator, but also has a thread pinned to the top of this forum entitled, "Grey Knights in 7th: A Primer." To the outside observer, RD looks like a knowledgeable guy (not trying to imply he isn't, mind you). If someone sees him say vehicles are terrible, they may take it as gospel. I don't want to see new players avoiding a viable strategy because RD said it was bad. While I hope people would gather more information before making a decision, as I mentioned, to the casual observer, RD has it together (again, not implying he doesn't), and he might hold just enough sway that he pushes the pendulum in the other direction.

[Grand Master Caloth]

It's no different from Reclusiarch Darius saying Coteaz henchmen lists is the best build possible because of GT winning lists and top 16 places. And trust me, I have disagreed with him and GL on so many occasions that I could buy a planet if I had a throne for every time. However, on no occasion have I ever reacted and responded like you did. Yes, he has the primer pinned. But there are other people there who disagree on that and other threads and remain civil. All members and ghosts should always take what they read with a grain of salt, as many factors (dice, players, whatever) can alter any given situation. At the end of the day, anyone can post their opinions, and should be able to expect to not be attacked for it.

[thade]

I'm going to lock this to give heads time to cool down a bit. <3

 

People are bound to disagree with one another on occasion, and - when somebody's very passionate about their position on a matter - sometimes things can get heated. If you ever feel like what you're about to post might be construed as a personal attack, rephrase it as best you can do that it can't be.

 

I'll reopen at the end of the weekend.

[thade]

Okay, game on, folks. <3 I hope everybody had a good weekend. :) Let's see if we can have a constructive discussion sans anger today.

[thade]

I have no idea why you'd ever take Rhinos.

Because Rhinos are awesome, my friend. They're cheap, they allow for effective re-deployment after deployment (a way to significantly reposition troops during the first turn), they afford some protection to infantry (effectively immune to small arms fire), and allow you to form make-shift barriers/blockaces/screens for your on-foot infantry. Also, tank shocking with a beyond-its-usefulness/3rd Turn Rhino is hilarious.

They're far more important for marines with boltguns, as our troops have epic 24" range for their double-taps, but still useful for getting closer to objectives and presenting super annoying barriers to the enemy. (Even a Wrecked Rhino blocks LOS and forces opponents to move in ways they don't want to, e.g. into your firing lanes, through difficult terrain, etc.) They're not only a transport, but also a mobile terrain piece, in a way.

[Captain Coolpants]

I know this has gone waaaaay off the topic that I started... But whatever haha. You guys think it's worth taking squads in 5 with a rhino/razorback each? To try and spam light armour?

[Berle]

If you want to spam Psybacks, then go with henchmen.

 

18 points for two acolytes and a psyker. Then another 50 for the psyback.

 

Thats damn cheap for 2 WC, a pysker and a pysback - No reason to buy the much more expensive PA Marines to get the pysback and/or Rhino

[thade]

Steering it back on topic's a fine idea; I just had been wanting to weigh in to support Rhinos all weekend haha. <3

Why combat squad ever?

I *do* combat squad some units; typically units in which I have multiple upgrade/specialist weapons that I want the ability to split fire with. With my marines I virtually always split my Devastator squads so I all four heavy weapons aren't committed to the same target unless I want them to be. With GK the same would be true for the (much rarer unit choice) Purgation squads.

In general I won't split Tacticals or Strikes because when you're within the engagement range of other units (something that long range fire squads aren't seeking out themselves) more bodies for a unit mean it can suffer more losses before it sees a severe problem. (Losing a knight from a unit of five is much more painful than losing a knight from a unit of ten, to oversimplify it.) That said, there are reasons that I would combat squad units with only stormbolters/boltguns.

The simplest reason I can think of is an IC in need of a Rhino to ride in. If I'm taking a full squad of ten and I have a melee-IC that needs an escort, Knights are better for splitting and escorting than marines are...because the five that don't ride around with the IC have a 24" engagement range so they suffer less for footslogging.

There are more complicated scenarios I can conjure up that would also convince me to combat squad: various weird terrain setups where I want my units high up but high positions can't fit more than five infantry models in coherency; a map with lots of blind spots where I want to have a lot of firing lanes with at least some coverage on them; the Space Hulk-style boarding action maze-like table; if I'm deepstriking, it's easier to place five models than ten after a less-than-ideal scatter as they cover less area.

How about with Razorbacks?

I have tried Razorback spam and I've found mixed results, but this is likely due to how I use my Rhinos as much as their general frailty. I see them as a "one turn, maybe two" survivor, so I use them for a single redeploy then as a temporarily dynamic terrain fixture. Razorbacks come with more firepower but they're glass cannons; then again, they strictly contribute to the full volume of fire you have to lay down (at least in early turns) and throwing more dice does mean you're more likely to kill more dirty xenos.

In your example there...

When I field a skirmisher infantry team (Strikes/Tacticals, for instance) I will most often give them a Rhino (or some other transport) so they can redeploy during Turn One if I wish. It also offers them all the other benefits I enumerated above (effective immunity to small arms fire, a make-shift blockade building block, etc.) so if I can fit it in the list (i.e. if I don't have more pressing needs within the list's design) I do it.

A list of five infantry squads each with a transport (spamming light armor, as you say) means I can potentially suddenly assemble a wall of three to five front-to-butt Rhinos and present my opponent with a wall...a wall they hadn't deployed their army to account for which can constrain their mobility and create firing lanes that benefit me (as I can and sometimes do deploy with this very crazy play in mind). It depends on how many Rhinos survive the first turn of shooting (unless the first go is mine) but unless their list is an old 'Earth Warrior'-style Tau/Devastator anti-vehicle list, I'll have a least a little wall to offer them. Wrecks still block LOS, or at least present craters they have to walk/drive over. Or if they choose to ignore the Rhinos, they still have to go around them.

(If they are an old Earth-style sit-and-shoot list, your Rhinos are going to die. That's okay, that's their job (to die before your infantry do) but that's why I take Rhinos and not Razorbacks. <3)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wish to clarify my arguments, in case people think I'm just a hater of Rhinos or Razors;

 

In a Henchmen list, Razorbacks only require a minimum 12pt investment to unlock (even with triple melta/plasma they're only 42 points). In either twin HB or twin AC form, they're dirt cheap gunboats that generate warp charges and put annoying MSU Troops onto objectives. Henchmen Mech can fill out your entire Troops allotment and still leave plenty of points leftover for expensive Knight units or even Allies. 

 

In a typical Knight list, without spamming Strikes, you typically won't have more than 4 Razorbacks/Rhinos. If you do, it means giving up on any real support, such as PsyDreads, Dreadknights, or even Terminators (who can't unlock transports at all). 

 

The biggest problem with Knight mech is the restriction of fire points. For Henchmen, this is rarely an issue, as you can choose to drop the storm bolters off the rest of the squad (if you even have more than 3 dudes) and fire the specials from the top hatch. For Knights however, half their cost is due to their superior shooting ability to normal Marines. 7th (like 6th) does punish foot infantry, but its an unavoidable aspect of our army design; we fight with our boots on the ground. By cutting out transports, you free up more points for more guys, and you're shooting at full capacity Turn 1 onwards. Also, units inside transports suffer from any damage results inflicted on the vehicle, further diluting your firepower if you suffer so much as a shaken result (assuming your AV11 transport isn't dead from HP loss by that point). 

 

With regards to Tank Shock/making mobile LOS blockers or terrain, thats true of all vehicles. The issue isn't what the vehicle can do, its the critical mass required. 6+ hulls is generally considered a mech list, and you simply won't have that without spamming Strikes (which are one of our weakest squads in 7th). 

 

 

I think Razorback Mech has definite potential in 7th, with Henchmen. The extra Warp Charges, mobility and firepower they offer with Henchmen are invaluable, and they can be brought in enough numbers to give enemy S6/7 spam a challenge. Also, unlike the minimum 100pt investment the cargo would be with Knights, Henchmen Mech lets you take a mech list, but still bring your Knights along to party as well. 

[Gentlemanloser]

How about the old 5th Edition version of the Razorback spam.

Now with added Unbound goodness.

Purifier x5, Psycannon x2, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo (190)

Take that 9 times in an 1850 list.

18 Psycannons, 9 TL S6 Heavy Bolters, 45 Marines. 18 Warp Charges.

(Edit, the old old version used Strikes, Puris and Purgations squads. Each with 1 Psycannon per 5 man Squad. For Target Priority shenanigans)

[thade]

Darius, what you say regarding LOS/Tank-shocking is strictly true of other support options (Predators, Vindicators) which GK don't really have; your alternatives there ("real support") are dreads, DKs, and Terminators...only two of which continue to block LOS after they're destroyed as they have no chance of leaving a wreck. DKs and Terminators don't become terrain (unless I missed something really wonky about the updated ruleset?) and pose an immediate threat so it makes sense to commit fire to them. Dreads do stand a chance of leaving (small, but tall!) wrecks...but they can't move as fast as Rhinos, don't block LOS nearly as well, and their height isn't as valuable as Rhino length when it comes to granting cover saves to foot-slogging infantry units.

Ask yourselves: would you commit fire to an empty transport simply because it poses difficulty in change of position or presents another unit with cover? Or would you just commit your (necessarily limited) shots-per-game toward straight up trying to kill the targets that present real danger (Strike Squads have fire power, Rhinos really don't). They're a cheap way to give you an interesting defensive measure, and that's in addition to their very obvious use: as a transport.

[Gentlemanloser]

Really, with Psybolt Ammo, there's no reason not to upgrade a Rhino to a Razorback.

 

Unless you need to transport a 10 man unit.

 

Which most of the time, you don't.

[thade]

There are always reasons to not do things: in this case, reasons to not upgrade a Rhino to a Razorback.

 

Sometimes you do want to transport a ten marine squad, or a combat squad with 2+ ICs attached.

 

Sometimes you need those points elsewhere and you just accept that your Rhino is going to die in one to two turns, making that psybolt-loaded weapon too short-lived for your purposes this game.

 

Sometimes you want to maximize sacrificial cheap Rhinos on the table because a wall of six Rhinos mid table that your opponent didn't expect is freaking hilarious.

 

Sometimes you just want to try because you think it's a bad idea and you want to challenge yourself with "GK Hard Mode".

[AnImA8]

I see a lot in this thread regarding the "critical mass" necessary for a mech list. While I think this is a very important consideration, I don't actually see it as all-important. I run 4 Razorbacks, a Psyraven, and 3 Psyflemen with 5 squads of 5 Purifiers. I am definitely skirting the line of mech, but I honestly find that to be ok.

Because unlike a list that uses 12 points of warrior acolytes as a tax for razorbacks, or any other variety of similarly emphasized mech lists, once my troops get out of their vehicles they will have significant game impact. Any list that has the AT to crack open the henchmen mech list will be able to bust a Razorback, and then only needs to dedicate such a slight amount of anti-infantry to smearing that 3-man squad, it really wouldn't be very difficult or require a significant amount of small-arms fire at all.

 

With say Purifiers, every Purifier is dangerous, fearless, and OS (in my list at least). If every time a Razorback gets popped, a squad of 5 Purifiers falls out, then the opponent is going to have to ENSURE that all five of those PA guys are dead. That may not be the hardest thing in the world, but you figure that when it rolls around to my turn and I am able to get my other 15-20 Purifiers left out on to the board, suddenly the tables turn. That's a lot of Psycannon shots, Cleansing Flame, and eventually assault.

When you use your troops as a tax, then yes, your opponent will have a lot of tanks to deal with, but in the end that is all they'll have to deal with. Everything in my Purifier list is dangerous, and the same is not true of an acolyte-tax list.

[Gentlemanloser]

There are always reasons to not do things: in this case, reasons to not upgrade a Rhino to a Razorback.

Sometimes you do want to transport a ten marine squad, or a combat squad with 2+ ICs attached.

Yup. Said that.

Sometimes you need those points elsewhere and you just accept that your Rhino is going to die in one to two turns, making that psybolt-loaded weapon too short-lived for your purposes this game.

Then don't use the Rhino and use those points elsewhere too.

Sometimes you want to maximize sacrificial cheap Rhinos on the table because a wall of six Rhinos mid table that your opponent didn't expect is freaking hilarious.

Find the 60 points (or go cheap and 30) and actually do some damage on the way in. No need to cheap out on 30 points...

Sometimes you just want to try because you think it's a bad idea and you want to challenge yourself with "GK Hard Mode".

LoL! You're doing 'hard mode' wrong!

You need to load up on Servitor units with no Inquisitors!

That's hard mode!

Edit;

Unbound 'Tax' Psycannon Razorback spam. (Using C:I, becuase of silly RAW with Unbound and GK limits on the number of Henchmen units. Unbound does not ignore Codex restrictions...)

1,850

Warrior x3, Meltabomb, Razorback, Psybolt Amm (67)

Take this 27 times...

27 Scoring BAWKSEZ. Each with a TL S6 Heavy Bolter.

AV13/14?

You have 27 sacrifical Melta Bombs. CHARGE!!!

[thade]

LoL! You're doing 'hard mode' wrong!

Says our resident Coteaz spokesperson. <3

Try out a Rhino blockade sometime. They're more fun than they appear at first, and they're pretty effective; it also doesn't hurt (at all) when they die, so exposing side armor for them to maximize cover isn't the same as exposing side armor for, sad, a Predator.

[Gentlemanloser]

Says our resident Coteaz spokesperson. <3

Where's RD?

Try out a Rhino blockade sometime. They're more fun than they appear at first, and they're pretty effective; it also doesn't hurt (at all) when they die, so exposing side armor for them to maximize cover isn't the same as exposing side armor for, sad, a Predator.

They totally are!

But you can spare the 30 points to give them all sacrifical Heavy Bolters.

That's less than a Terminator...

[Valerian]

 

With say Purifiers, every Purifier is dangerous, fearless, and OS (in my list at least). If every time a Razorback gets popped, a squad of 5 Purifiers falls out, then the opponent is going to have to ENSURE that all five of those PA guys are dead. That may not be the hardest thing in the world, but you figure that when it rolls around to my turn and I am able to get my other 15-20 Purifiers left out on to the board, suddenly the tables turn. That's a lot of Psycannon shots, Cleansing Flame, and eventually assault.

 

When you use your troops as a tax, then yes, your opponent will have a lot of tanks to deal with, but in the end that is all they'll have to deal with. Everything in my Purifier list is dangerous, and the same is not true of an acolyte-tax list.

 

AnimA8,

 

What do you do with Crowe? 

 

V

[march10k]

Rhinos are easy to kill...but what's killing rhinos isn't spamming armor saves at knights. They are an easy first blood, but they're also an easy way to rack up some early VP in a tactical objectives mission. If you give them zero upgrades and run them empty, they slide way down the enemy's target priority list, especially after first blood has been achieved. I've had opponents ignore the opportunity for flank shots on an objective-camping chimera because they didn't need to cap that objective this turn. Rhinos are cheap, the benefits outweigh drawbacks, and it's not hard to fit four of them in a list. JMHO, YMMV.

[AnImA8]

 

 

With say Purifiers, every Purifier is dangerous, fearless, and OS (in my list at least). If every time a Razorback gets popped, a squad of 5 Purifiers falls out, then the opponent is going to have to ENSURE that all five of those PA guys are dead. That may not be the hardest thing in the world, but you figure that when it rolls around to my turn and I am able to get my other 15-20 Purifiers left out on to the board, suddenly the tables turn. That's a lot of Psycannon shots, Cleansing Flame, and eventually assault.

 

When you use your troops as a tax, then yes, your opponent will have a lot of tanks to deal with, but in the end that is all they'll have to deal with. Everything in my Purifier list is dangerous, and the same is not true of an acolyte-tax list.

 

AnimA8,

 

What do you do with Crowe? 

 

V

 

Before I used to put him in a stormraven, hurl him at the enemy, and call it a day.

 

Now, he's even more useless, so I stick him out of LoS by my three Dreadnoughts and have him ward off any units that might try and take out my firebase.

[Trevak Dal]

Having come from Chaos space marines...one of the things I thought was coolest about most loyalist armies was the ability to Combat Squad.

 

"Man, this guy is bringing more troops than me...better combat squad" or "Man, this guy can drop so much firepower, that he can insta-gib a 10 man squad easy...time to turn up the trolling and Combat Squad like a Champion (because he can only shoot at 1 unit-and that one unit of five takes 30+ shots or so...Trolololoo)

 

That big terminator squad becomes 2 squads and the like if you need it to.  Just a really cool ability.

[Rurik the blessed]

There are always reasons to not do things: in this case, reasons to not upgrade a Rhino to a Razorback.

Sometimes you do want to transport a ten marine squad, or a combat squad with 2+ ICs attached.

Yup. Said that.

Sometimes you need those points elsewhere and you just accept that your Rhino is going to die in one to two turns, making that psybolt-loaded weapon too short-lived for your purposes this game.

Then don't use the Rhino and use those points elsewhere too.

Sometimes you want to maximize sacrificial cheap Rhinos on the table because a wall of six Rhinos mid table that your opponent didn't expect is freaking hilarious.

Find the 60 points (or go cheap and 30) and actually do some damage on the way in. No need to cheap out on 30 points...

Sometimes you just want to try because you think it's a bad idea and you want to challenge yourself with "GK Hard Mode".

LoL! You're doing 'hard mode' wrong!

You need to load up on Servitor units with no Inquisitors!

That's hard mode!

Edit;

Unbound 'Tax' Psycannon Razorback spam. (Using C:I, becuase of silly RAW with Unbound and GK limits on the number of Henchmen units. Unbound does not ignore Codex restrictions...)

1,850

Warrior x3, Meltabomb, Razorback, Psybolt Amm (67)

Take this 27 times...

27 Scoring BAWKSEZ. Each with a TL S6 Heavy Bolter.

AV13/14?

You have 27 sacrifical Melta Bombs. CHARGE!!!

That would be a little expensive...

[Gentlemanloser]

Well I couldn't want to recommend eastern European / Chinese recasters at all.

There's always Ebay/Car boot sales.

Or winning the lottery.

/whistle

Edit: 3D Printers!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I keep seeing the 'but they're not shooting X' argument brought up. It doesn't work. AV11 breaks to the same firepower that drowns out our armour saves (S6/7 spam, which is not only a common build, it's pushed by GW in every codex since Necrons got updated). So no, enemy shooting isn't 'wasted' Turn 1 when they're turning your Rhinos into flaming wreckage. It's being put to good use. 

 

Again, mech is fine, provided you can achieve critical mass. Pure Knights cannot do this, but Henchmen, IG, Necrons, Eldar etc can. When you bring 6+ hulls to the table and still have other stuff to back it up, that's when your opponent will have target priority issues. Not when you put down 4, maybe 5 Rhinos, pop smoke and hope for the best, and don't have much else backing it up. Mech Guard weren't strong solely because of Melta-Vets in Chimeras, they were strong because they could bring those 6 Chimeras full of melta, and still have other tanks, artillery and infantry to back it up. Same for Crons, same for Henchmen, same for Eldar (who bring tough stuff like Wraithknights, Wraithguard or fast evasive stuff like Jetbikes to further dilute your shooting), and so on. 

 

Stop trying fit a very square peg (an expensive, low model count army whose every advantage lies in their infantry) into a round hole (mech favours cheap cargo, preferably with relevant firepower but it's not necessary).