Remtek Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I'm curious if this is legal now. Buy 5ASM with LR as dedicated transport (300ish) points. Buy a DC unit without a transport. In deployment you deploy your 5 asm on an objective outside the veichle. Then you embark your DC into LR and advance forward. With the new rules a Land Raider would be considered scoring when purchased as a dedicated transport for ASM, so this would give you DC inside a scoring veichle? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milkman Of Baal Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 This is kind of the idea I was playing with except with termies, I think apart form Deathwing we’re the only dex to have LR as DT so why not take advantage while we still can right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 The vehicle is a scoring troop option, regardless of who's inside. The DC remain non-scoring. It doesn't matter if the DC are inside or not, the LR scores, period. So if the LR is close to an objective, it's controlling the objective, not the DC inside. Same is true of a StormRaven with DC inside, the raven itself can control and contest objectives (not against troops though), regardless of what it's carrying in its belly. Ultra-scoring LRs are very good news for the armies that can take them, hard to pop, and can't be ignored when sitting on a 3 pt objective With DC inside, the DC can clear the objective and then the LR can park on it and play king of the hill with whoever wants to take it back. Can't Grey Knights also take dedicated LRs? I wouldn't get used to this tactic though, who knows what the new codex will bring!!! Side question, if you buy a LR as a dedicated transport to the DC itself, the LR doesn't have the Black Rage rule that prevents the DC from scoring. So it's a dedicated transport for a troop option, which means it's a troop option. Which means it's ultra-scoring. This may feel like rules-lawyering, but by RAW it should be like that, shouldn't it? Maybe there's something in the faq about it. EDIT: Checked the faq, nothing in there saying that the black rage applies to designated transports. Don't have the codex on me though, but since transports weren't scoring when the rule was written, I doubt there'll be anything in there to contradict what I said. You could be hit in the face if you try to pull it off though ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 You could be hit in the face if you try to pull it off though Why? People are just amazed when you tell them that even though everything is scoring now your DC still aren't. Any transport bought for our troop choices are scoring and have 'objective secured', even those for DC. So no need to juggle them between different raiders, pods, razors or rhinos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Drop pods deal damage! :P Ask any opponent who had to deal with those extra nagging storm bolter shots all game. Even better now that you get to fire with full BS on the drop. Deathwinds are almost worth it now! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milkman Of Baal Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Return of Razor spam? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Return of Razor spam? Depends on your meta. That S6-7 shooting hasn't disappeared just because we got a new edition. You could easily lose all that mobility and fire power in 1-2 turns against shooty lists. EDIT: The last time razor spam was good we had some of the following advantages: HPs didn't exist and glances struggled to kill vehicles. We could assault from stationary razors and assault was stronger over all. 'Fast' vehicles had a 12" speed advantage rather than 6" and were less vulnerable in close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 The other day I got that asked as well "Wait, everything scores but the DC still don't?" :) ...I guess you're right, people do expect scoring everything now. I like these changes, but at the same time I like jumpers a lot more than mech, and now the jump pack is a far worse option than a cheap transport, specially for troops. I hope jumpers get some nice boost with the new codex, something along what Raven Guard get. DoA is nice but I'd rather have something more menacing when it's time to fight. In my last game, having only jumpers for infantry, I didn't get a single hammer of wrath in :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Drop pods aren't as reliable for claiming objectives; in short, you have more chance of scattering than not and assuming you can aim the pod so its centre covers the objective, you would still need a scatter of less than 5" to be within claiming range. But I would think that rhinos and razors are as vulnerable to glancing as ever, so it's swings and roundabouts I suppose. Drop pods deal damage! :P Ask any opponent who had to deal with those extra nagging storm bolter shots all game. Even better now that you get to fire with full BS on the drop. Deathwinds are almost worth it now! Can vouch for this. With 7 pods those extra shots are often worth more than the PV of the pods alone. Many a time they have finished off a whittled-down squad or caused that one extra casualty needed for a LD check. They were superb in 6th for bringing down FMCs, may not be as effective at this now but still very much so against multiple FMCs, flying circus etc. Any chance of a page ref for the rule on full ballistic skill? I'll probably have to be referring to it a lot in the near future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I'm interested in that podding with full BS thing as well. Been playing the pods with only snap firing the turn they arrive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Vehicles arriving from reserves using deep strike are now assumed to have moved at combat speed. For non fast that means 1 weapon at full BS. Only have the e-book available so page ref isn't going to help, look it up yourself if you don't trust me. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I trust, and thank you as well :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Sounds good to me, cheers. I trust all the brothers here in this forum..but anything to avoid skimming through the rulebook is always worth an ask eh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Vehicles arriving from reserves using deep strike are now assumed to have moved at combat speed.. Unless you're german.. Gj not writing up any erratas in german anymore GW -.- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Player A "Your DC are still not a scoring unit?" Player B "Nope..." Player B under his breath "....but the Landraider they have just got in is super scoring mwhahahahaaa" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Drop pods aren't as reliable for claiming objectives; in short, you have more chance of scattering than not and assuming you can aim the pod so its centre covers the objective, you would still need a scatter of less than 5" to be within claiming range. But I would think that rhinos and razors are as vulnerable to glancing as ever, so it's swings and roundabouts I suppose. Drop pods deal damage! Ask any opponent who had to deal with those extra nagging storm bolter shots all game. Even better now that you get to fire with full BS on the drop. Deathwinds are almost worth it now! Can vouch for this. With 7 pods those extra shots are often worth more than the PV of the pods alone. Many a time they have finished off a whittled-down squad or caused that one extra casualty needed for a LD check. They were superb in 6th for bringing down FMCs, may not be as effective at this now but still very much so against multiple FMCs, flying circus etc. Any chance of a page ref for the rule on full ballistic skill? I'll probably have to be referring to it a lot in the near future. About the pods landing... you have a 33.3% chance of landing perfectly on top of an objective. If you do scatter, you go 5" or less 27.7% of the time. 27.7% of 66.6 is 18.4482%, added to the 33.3 is 51.7something. Assuming I've not made a messed up somewhere, that means that whilst they scatter more often than not, drop pods in fact have a marginally better than 50-50 shot of securing an objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3721903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Already mentioned, but id figure id say it as well. Buy the DC a LR of their own. The landraider doesent have the black rage rule (or whatver the rule is called that says theyre not scoring) so the vehicle itself is still scoring. Also they can start on the table embarked in it this way :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Admetus, about the odds of arriving on the target...the initial 33, where does that come from?...The scatter dice has 2 hit results? (don't use that dice too much as you can see ;) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The scatter dice has 2 hit results, and four arrows, meaning 1/3 of the time it'll land on target. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Return of Razor spam? Depends on your meta. That S6-7 shooting hasn't disappeared just because we got a new edition. You could easily lose all that mobility and fire power in 1-2 turns against shooty lists. EDIT: The last time razor spam was good we had some of the following advantages: HPs didn't exist and glances struggled to kill vehicles. We could assault from stationary razors and assault was stronger over all. 'Fast' vehicles had a 12" speed advantage rather than 6" and were less vulnerable in close combat. I somewhat agree, they can still be glanced. But compared to 5th, veichles do alot more dmg turn 1-3. I remember getting stunned all the time with my Baal's LR's and and so on. In 6th veichles had a more consistent performance when they were still alive. Autocannons definitely got better in 7th. Lascannons are kinda in no man's land now needing 6's to explode. Melta still good. Right now a Pod/Razor/DC list is looking really fun to play. Dropping multiple dreadnoughts in turn 1, then advancing with Razors. I'm leaning torwards TLAC instead of las/plas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonOfThunder Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Thanks for clearing that up, I assumed it was only one hit. I kept thinking my mates got lucky with their plasma cannons way too often :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenshard42 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Also in the pod drop odds, it becomes easier to hit the target area if there's enemy troops in close proximity as they can help reduce scatter in certain situations Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Or make it impossible to claim an objective in the first place. A clever oppo will leave objectives near the board edge uncontested, as with these there is a significant risk of mishap with the pod. Claiming with pods has potential, albeit limited potential. Won't stop me using them though :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3722535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If that is the case, this makes Drop Pods, Razorbacks and Rhinos more appealing than LR's. For the point cost, these become amazing. Dropping pods on objectives, forcing the opponent to deal with multiple AV12 3HP structures that dont deal dmg has to be frustrating on the receiving end. My impression after 1 long game is that Razorbacks are extremly durable now compared to their cost. Return of Razor spam? Depends on your meta. That S6-7 shooting hasn't disappeared just because we got a new edition. You could easily lose all that mobility and fire power in 1-2 turns against shooty lists. EDIT: The last time razor spam was good we had some of the following advantages: HPs didn't exist and glances struggled to kill vehicles. We could assault from stationary razors and assault was stronger over all. 'Fast' vehicles had a 12" speed advantage rather than 6" and were less vulnerable in close combat. Indeed. A MSU Razor list would get eaten up by the Eldar equivalent - Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents. The problem with scoring Razors and Land Raiders is the ASM tax you have to pay to get them. Hopefully the new codex will make ASM useful again.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292596-putting-dc-into-a-scoring-lr-post-deployment-dc-scoring/#findComment-3723490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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