Annihilation a valid strategy?

[march10k]

If you're forcing him to charge his Shields every turn, he's running the risk of Wounding himself while simultaneously becoming very vulnerable. He's also forgoing the alternate options that are extremely useful in a few situations. Hammering a Riptide with AP2 does the job beautifully once the Shields drop, or before he gets a chance to charge up.  The point is to keep him using his shield, both to keep him from using his nova reactor for something else, and to give him maximum opportunity to hurt himself.  Demolisher cannons accomplish that, too, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  And what you're all wishing away and I haven't gotten around to pointing out yet is that the riptide can just stand in a ruin and get a 4++ without using his nova reactor.  That halves the effectiveness of lascannons without affecting high-S non-AP torrent fire at all. 

 

I haven't been playing since 1998, granted, but I'm not sure what the relevance of nodding to older Editions is when discussing the viability of tactics in the current one.  Wow.  You don't get it.  My point is that for those of us who learned to win with a maximum of three AV14 vehicles, squadrons and HQ tanks are a gift from heaven, not "the minimum standard."  You have no place telling a fifteen year veteran that he lacks, what was it, "the proper Guard perspective" on how many tanks are appropriate.  That is the relevance.  

 

 

That aside, I come from Tau where quality of fire and draining every ounce of firepower on the fly is the only way to keep your models on the table. Hence why that mentality extends to bigger units getting better buffs, having those buffs available to most units that require it, and keeping said buffs quite safe. I've done pretty well so far with Fire On My Target and Bring It Down alone helping me kill some stuff I really needed dead. FRFSRF is nice, but it's still just Lasguns. Even on Hotshots the volume of fire often isn't much in my admittedly limited experience so far.

 

Great.  Welcome to the guard.  We're not tau.  Just because quality over quantity is the way that tau succeed (or succeeded for you, at least) doesn't mean that it's the only, or best, way to play IG.

 

 

 

 

Even funnier is your idea of MSU.  Ten man squads aren't small units, five man squads are.  Ten are the minimum in most troop choices in the game, for the love of the Emperor.  Does any other army have access to the 50 man blobs that you seem to think constitute a normal squad size?  I can think of a few that get as many as 20, Orks get 30, not sure about gaunts...but most have a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 10.  So the idea that ten is a small unit deserves far more ridicule than B&C allows.

 

Tyranid Gaunts can go up to 30, of both Genuses. Fire Warriors go to 12, Kroot to 20...arguably 33. Orks go to 30 IIRC. I don't know Eldar off the top of my head. Crons go to 20. 

 

In fact, it's only really Imperial armies that go 5-10 IIRC. I believe Chaos units can go higher than 10, Cultists being able to go to 30/35.

 

Lets take this one alphabetically:

 

Adepta Sororitas:  10-20

Astra Militarum: 10, with the option to blob up some units, some others are stuck at as few as 3 models.  Lots of options for 5

Chaos Daemons: 5-20

Blood Angels: 5-10

Chaos Space Marines:  5-20, but they all take fewer than 10, whatever their favored number is (6-9)

Dark Angels: 5-10 for tactical squads and deathwing, 3-6 for bikes

Dark Eldar:  5-10

Eldar:  Guardians are 10-12, Dire Avengers and Rangers are 5-10, and jetbikes are 3-12

Grey Knights:  1+ for Paladins, 5-10 for strikes, 3-12 for henchmen, 5-10 for termies

Necrons: 5-20 for warriors, 5-10 for immortals

Orks: 10-30

Space marines: 5-10

Tau: You already know.

Nidz: 10-30.

 

Okay, to summarize, MOST armies can take troop choices of five models or fewer, MANY are capped at a maximum of ten or twelve, and only IG, Nids, Orks, and...sure, kroot...can take more than 20.  Your claim that 10 is MSU is ludicrous.

 

 

In a nutshell, it's easy for most armies to chew through a squad of Vets if required. Discounting threats the OP is tailoring towards because you don't face them also doesn't help. He wants to kill Triptide, so we find tactics for that.   It's easy for guard to chew through a ten man squad, too?  So what?  "can be killed in one turn in a pinch" is your definition of a small unit?  Then MOST armies only have access to small units. I would say that under ten is small, 10-20 is standard, and over 20 is horde.  And killing riptides is NOT the subject of this thread, the question of whether it's a good idea for IG to minimize superscorers to squeeze in that *just one more* sexy unit is a good idea...that's the subject of the thread.

 

For the record, Pask in a Punisher will likely do a number on a Riptide, being able to reliably stack Wounds onto it. Bring It Down on Plasma Guns will also really bring the pain, if it doesn't have Shields charged or the Stimulant Injector upgrade, then it's toast without some lucky rolls.

And a riptide is likely to lack the stiminj and have its shields down?  

[WarriorFish]

Let's play nice please, nothing is served by getting nit picky over the definitions of things.

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

 

Demolisher cannons accomplish that, too, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  And what you're all wishing away and I haven't gotten around to pointing out yet is that the riptide can just stand in a ruin and get a 4++ without using his nova reactor.  That halves the effectiveness of lascannons without affecting high-S non-AP torrent fire at all. 

 

Tough to get Cover big enough for a Riptide on most tables. Three would be near impossible.

 

Demolisher Cannons are something a Riptide can laugh off, given an innate 5++ against it, as well as it only causing one Wound. Not the best way to do it.  Your Autocannons need 3s to Wound, and need to get through a 2+ and most likely a 5+FNP after that. You won't get the volume of shot required to do the job unless the Tau player is hilariously incompetent, (though, if they're running Triptide...) A Deathrain team should be able to kill a Chimera each if properly supported, so while you'll have a lot of early game spam dakka, it'll drop off fast. You'll need 27 Autocannon rounds on average to Wound a Tide. Multiply that by 15, and you'll see it just isn't going to happen.

 

However, I will stop posting anti-Tau advice here because clearly you know vastly more than me about the army I play constantly and how to beat it. I defer to your decades of experience playing since 1998, fighting a year old Codex with a month old Codex in a weeks-old Edition. I'm not here to get into a petty argument or massage your ego, I'm here to give advice born from having my army killed, or seeing what opportunities an opponent missed that could have helped them beat me.

 

Sorry Innersturm, if you want we can discuss this via PM. I have a few ideas for builds that may help you kill those Gundam Fishmen.

[Frater Cornelius]

Woah, simmer down guys. No need for all-out warfare. Keep it to the table top :D

[cypherthefallenangel]

Back on topic. I always play annihilation first, objectives second. Blood for the blood god and all of that. But really I have played this way since the RT days and Ive done pretty good over the years. I would say I have about a 75% success ratio. Some editions Have been better than others with this tactic, but really if you didn't lose a game once and a while no one would want to play you. Right? Anyways, I usually start of the game either hammering my opponent's support units/death stars or if they went light on the scoring units, ill hammer them instead. About turn 4(turn 3 in a tournament) I'll finally make a grab at the far objectives. I haven't really tried it out in 7th yet but I'm sure it still works