Red Thirst and Black Rage - what's the difference?

[Valkyrion]

Ronseal.

 

I don't quite understand the distinction between the two. Is it that the Black Rage is a vision of Sanguinius and the Red Thirst is inherent, just laying dormant within the marine?

[CornishMike]

Do you mean from the perspective of fluff, rules or both?

[Toomanyprojects]

The Red Thirst is felt by every Blood Angel, and is at is simplest a desire to feel and drink te blood of ones enemies (and some times allies). It can be checked

 

The black rage is different in that it is an all consuming hatred of your enemy: the visceral need to rend them limb from limb. And a big difference is that it cannot be checked: only Lemartes (who is living on borrowed time) and 'Mephistion are it's only known survivors.

 

Hope that helps

[Valkyrion]

From a fluff point of view.

 

 

The Red Thirst is felt by every Blood Angel, and is at is simplest a desire to feel and drink te blood of ones enemies (and some times allies). It can be checked

 

Cheers, that's what I thought until...

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Thirst#Red_Thirst

 

This is the bit that is puzzling me; 

Those who succumb to the Red Thirst or Black Rage are either formed into the Death Company or locked away in the Tower of the Lost on Baal, until they change completely, going insane.

 

The Black Rage I get, but if those who succumb to the Red Thirst are also inducted into the DC, then what's the difference?

[Terrahawk]

The reason why there's confusion between the two is that historically they have been used very liberally, and the distinction between them has been muddied. I like the fact that the 5th Ed Codex made a very clear distinction between the two: 

• Red Thirst: a constant lust for battle and a thirst for blood, that every son of Sanguinius feels. Those who succumb to the Thirst often do so temporarily and can get back.
• Black Rage: visions of being Sanguinius on Terra, unable to tell a friend from foe, mad with fury. It might take time before fully succumbing, but it always does happen. No coming back (unless you are Mephiston) and inducted into the DC. Black Rage also often leads to a full-blown Red Thirst so I think that is what the part Valkyrion quoted means. Or at least that is how you can consolidate older fluff with the new.

[Jolemai]

Some Blood Angels feel themselves beginning to turn and submit themselves to the Death Company. Here, glorious death is better than the descent into madness.

[Valkyrion]

Okay, so if you are Black Raging you are always Red Thirsting, but if you are Red Thirsting you aren't necessarily Black Raging?

[Jolemai]

Something like that, yes.

 

I see it more as the Red Thirst is stage one and the Black Rage is stage two. Stage one is temporary, stage two is permanent.

[Shaezus]

I read somewhere that the black rage is something that only came about after Sanguinius's death; until then it was simply a full-blown and irreversible version of the red thirst. Perhaps this was just a misinterpretation springing from James Swallow's confusing the two in the BA books he wrote prior to 'Fear To Tread', but the fact is that the black rage has been around since our chapter's earliest days, the only difference is that visions of Sanguinius's final moments became a part of it after he fell.

[Black_Sky]

Those marines who cannot control their Red Thirst, are the ones locked away in the tower of Amareo on Baal. Their anguished howls ecchoing down the long empty halls and stairwells.

[Quixus]

Those marines who cannot control their Red Thirst, are the ones locked away in the tower of Amareo on Baal. Their anguished howls ecchoing down the long empty halls and stairwells.

Tha must be older fluff, I thought Astorath gets them all.

[Black_Sky]

Astorath gets all those who fall to the Black Rage (Visions of Sanguinius death). The Red Thirst striken ones are stuck in a tower, where the priests (poor overworked bastards) try to cure this affliction, which has haunted us since before the heresy. Remember, Horus lured Sanguinius into a trap, by dangling the bait of a possible cure to the Red Thirst in front of him.

[Shaezus]

Horus offered a cure for what he had witnessed in that chapel on Melchior: a Blood Angel, Altaros was his name or something similar, so far gone that he attacked his own primarch and Sanguinius had no choice but to kill him. Question is was brother Altaros taken by the black rage or the red thirst? I think it was the former, as we see on Signus Prime how the mass onset of red thirst seems to suddenly lift when the foe is fully defeated. Which confuses me as why would there then the need for a 'chill out room' if the thirst dies off on its own accord?

 

Meh, sorry if that sounds pedantic. I suppose we all know the fluff is full of contradictions.

[Nova_chron]

In fear to tread there is no reference to the black rage, but those brothers who have succumbed to the red thirst and cannot relent in are executed and their wargear is painted black as they have entered the "company of death". Current fluff is the black rage was a result of the death of our primarch

[Sanguine_Knight]

I always thought the Red Thirst was the thing that was always nagging at the back of our minds and could be kept in check. The Black Rage was when a Brother thought he was Sanguinius on Terra and started getting really pissed off. The Black Rage could happen randomly but if the Brother did not die in battle or Astorath didn't get him then he would descend into a full blown, irreversible Red Thirst. 

[Valerian]

From a fluff point of view.

 

 

The Red Thirst is felt by every Blood Angel, and is at is simplest a desire to feel and drink te blood of ones enemies (and some times allies). It can be checked

 

 

Cheers, that's what I thought until...

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Thirst#Red_Thirst

 

This is the bit that is puzzling me; 

Those who succumb to the Red Thirst or Black Rage are either formed into the Death Company or locked away in the Tower of the Lost on Baal, until they change completely, going insane.

 

The Black Rage I get, but if those who succumb to the Red Thirst are also inducted into the DC, then what's the difference?

 

The Lexicanum doesn't get everything right, so don't use that as a source, go instead to the primary sources, like your codex.  The Red Thirst and The Black Rage are both explained on page 13 of the 5e codex.   The Red Thirst is the battle fury and blood-hunger within every Blood Angel, and is very much like the Curse of the Wulfen that is a part of the genetic legacy that haunts every Son of Russ.  As stated by someone above, those that are completely overtaken by the Red Thirst are hinted to be sequestered to a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal.  

 

The Black Rage is different; this is where the gene-encoded final experience of the Primarch's final battle with Horus 'erupts' and takes over a Blood Angel's mind.  This is the path that leads inevitably to the Death Company, where they'll fight their final battle, as Sanguinius did.  

 

It is worth noting that in the Studio material at least (I'm not familiar with BA Black Library work), only Calistarius/Mephiston has overcome the Black Rage, and that was due to the unique combination of his extreme Psychic ability combined with his willpower, and the fact that he was stuck under a collapsed building and couldn't actually act out on his Black Rage - he missed the opportunity to die in battle and somehow came out the other side, as no one else has.  Lemartes, also mentioned above, is not in this same situation; he has not come out the other side of the Black Rage and is still very much right in the middle of it.  Remember that he's kept in stasis when he's not right in the middle of a fight.  His future is just as doomed as every other member of the Death Company; it's just getting drawn out, because he showed such a force of will that Astorath agreed to let him keep going through the cycle of stasis and combat, rather than granting him the Emperor's Mercy and just lopping off his head.

 

V

[Valerian]

Looking back to the 3e 'minidex' I found that only The Black Rage was really referenced with the typical background explanation for the Death Company.  The only references I noted for The Red Thirst was that it was mentioned briefly in the story of Calistarius, and was the title of the special rule that said only Chaplains or the Sanguinary High Priest could join and lead the Death Company; otherwise it wasn't explained at all as a separate aspect to The Black Rage.

 

However, the 2007 White Dwarf Blood Angels "codex" did separate the two concepts, and the background material provide in the first part of that two-part army list was essentially copy and pasted into the current codex.

 

V

[Demoulius]

AFAIK:

Red thirst: Like the name implies, an thirst for blood and battle. For most easily overcome and if they do succumb its mostly only temporary. For the ones who succumb and cant restrain it further we have a nice resort located in a tower.

I bolbed battle because the red thirst wasent just a thirst for blood. Marines that suffer from the red thirst generally are battle hungry and prefer ripping their opponents apart with their bare hands.

Black rage: The curse. Marines relive Sanguinius' last moments in life. Brought upon Sanguinius' death at the hands of Horus which transfered this psychic curse to the blood angels' blood (and since blood angels rely heavily on his blood for their continued excistance that means blood angels are pretty much stuck with it) They are more resiliant and stronger while in this state. They relive parts of Sanguinius last moments on Terra and sometimes have trouble seperating friend from foe, direction from Chaplains helps them seperate friend from foe. Generally most succumb to their wounds. If they are not felled during the battle their brothers are forced to grant them the emperor's mercy or risk beeing attack themselves.

Tbh I think the red thirst is poorly represented ingame atm. I much prefer the randomness (but alot more sense making) 3rd edition rules where you had to roll for each unit if they dident go ape:cuss and run forward. I even used devastators back then and they were ALOT more blood crazy then my assault marines were

[Shaezus]

In fear to tread there is no reference to the black rage, but those brothers who have succumbed to the red thirst and cannot relent in are executed and their wargear is painted black as they have entered the "company of death". Current fluff is the black rage was a result of the death of our primarch

Are you sure it is actually named 'the red thirst' in Fear To Tread?

 

If there are no direct references to the black rage, it is still represented in Kano's visions as a black thread appearing with the red thread, which indicates it was around before Sanguinius's death.

 

The marine in the chapel is referred to as one of the 'lost'; there is clearly a difference in how far he had gone compared to the battlefield bloodlust that occurs and wanes on Signus Prime. Perhaps in the early days this difference was not recognised?

[appiah4]

Astorath is quite possibly the worst piece of fluff written for Blood Angels, ever.  Worse than brofisting Necrons, even.

[Valerian]

Astorath is quite possibly the worst piece of fluff written for Blood Angels, ever.  Worse than brofisting Necrons, even.

 

Yeah, agreed.  Most of the Death Company probably die in battle, but for those that don't, then it ought to fall to their Brothers in the Company, particularly the Sanguinary Priesthood, to perform the Benedicto Ultimatum and provide the Emperor's Mercy right there on the battlefield, while they'd be likewise responsible for harvesting the gene-seed.  It makes about zero sense for a single guy to have to run around the galaxy doing this job.

 

I really, really, hope the design team completely revises the fluff for him in the next codex to fix that.  They comletely changed Lemartes' fluff, after all, as he himself was the High Chaplain in the previous codices and White Dwarf army list, and hadn't succumbed to the Black Rage at all.

 

V

[Shaezus]

Maybe they could write him out by having him fall to the black rage too. That would be interesting..maybe he would fall on his own axe if he recognised he had succumbed. Maybe not.

[Demoulius]

Astaroth's fluff together with brofisting necrons are the worst part of the codex. Other then that there arent many (fluff) issues that ive got a problem with.

 

The lost from 30K sound like the madman trapped on the tower on Baal tbh... Except rather then lock them up for the rest of their lives Sanguinius thought his sons dident deserve such a life and decided to give them a mercy killing.

[Terrahawk]

Yeah, not a big fan of Astorath's or the Sanguinor's fluff either. Nothing wrong with the miniatures though, I just hope they would revamp their background.

 

The excellent Index Astartes: Death Company actually makes no mention of Astorath at all, and instead implies that the DC that survive the battle are kept in statis and/or the Tower of Lost until the next chance for glorious death. I actually quite prefer this version, as opposed to Astorath roaming around the galaxy, chopping heads off.

[Orblivion]

 

In fear to tread there is no reference to the black rage, but those brothers who have succumbed to the red thirst and cannot relent in are executed and their wargear is painted black as they have entered the "company of death". Current fluff is the black rage was a result of the death of our primarch

Are you sure it is actually named 'the red thirst' in Fear To Tread?

 

If there are no direct references to the black rage, it is still represented in Kano's visions as a black thread appearing with the red thread, which indicates it was around before Sanguinius's death.

 

The marine in the chapel is referred to as one of the 'lost'; there is clearly a difference in how far he had gone compared to the battlefield bloodlust that occurs and wanes on Signus Prime. Perhaps in the early days this difference was not recognised?

 

 

The strongest evidence that the Black Rage didn't exist before Sanguinius' death are the symptoms themselves.  Blood Angels who have fallen to the Black Rage believe themselves to be Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra.  Their mind warps what they see and hear to make it fit within the illusion, this is illustrated by the short story of Captain Tycho's last stand.  He sees all the Orks are traitor marines and daemons, and he believes the Warboss is Horus himself.  Subsequently they are consumed by rage at the betrayal of Horus, but the benefit of this illusion is that most of the time they can tell friend from foe.  That is the Black Rage.

 

The Black Rage did not exist until after these events occured and Sanguinius died, his death burned a psychic imprint of his final moments on every Blood Angel.