Red Thirst and Black Rage - what's the difference?

[Quixus]

The Black Rage did not exist until after these events occured and Sanguinius died, his death burned a psychic imprint of his final moments on every Blood Angel.

Linear time and effect follows a cause are not necessary in the warp. just look at the "birth" of Slaanesh.

[Jolemai]

Astaroth's fluff together with brofisting necrons are the worst part of the codex. Other then that there arent many (fluff) issues that ive got a problem with.

Read the Codex: Grey Knights about the time they "helped" the Blood Angels

(This forum need a facepalm smiley)

[Orblivion]

 

The Black Rage did not exist until after these events occured and Sanguinius died, his death burned a psychic imprint of his final moments on every Blood Angel.

Linear time and effect follows a cause are not necessary in the warp. just look at the "birth" of Slaanesh.

 

 

 

I was expecting a response like this, but there is still no depiction of any marine believing they are Sanguinius before Sagnuinius actually died.

 

EDIT: The marine we see at the beginning of Fear to Tread is drinking blood, that is not a symptom of the Black Rage but it IS a symptom of the Red Thirst.

[Shaezus]

 

 

 

In fear to tread there is no reference to the black rage, but those brothers who have succumbed to the red thirst and cannot relent in are executed and their wargear is painted black as they have entered the "company of death". Current fluff is the black rage was a result of the death of our primarch

Are you sure it is actually named 'the red thirst' in Fear To Tread?

 

If there are no direct references to the black rage, it is still represented in Kano's visions as a black thread appearing with the red thread, which indicates it was around before Sanguinius's death.

 

The marine in the chapel is referred to as one of the 'lost'; there is clearly a difference in how far he had gone compared to the battlefield bloodlust that occurs and wanes on Signus Prime. Perhaps in the early days this difference was not recognised?

The strongest evidence that the Black Rage didn't exist before Sanguinius' death are the symptoms themselves. Blood Angels who have fallen to the Black Rage believe themselves to be Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra. Their mind warps what they see and hear to make it fit within the illusion, this is illustrated by the short story of Captain Tycho's last stand. He sees all the Orks are traitor marines and daemons, and he believes the Warboss is Horus himself. Subsequently they are consumed by rage at the betrayal of Horus, but the benefit of this illusion is that most of the time they can tell friend from foe. That is the Black Rage.

 

The Black Rage did not exist until after these events occured and Sanguinius died, his death burned a psychic imprint of his final moments on every Blood Angel.

My whole point is that Sanguinius's imprint became a part of the black rage, not the cause of it but an additional symptom.

 

Otherwise how do we explain the drastic degrees of difference in the symptoms seen in the IX legion at places like Melchior and at Signus prime? How some were too far gone to be recovered, hence 'lost' while others regained their temperament after battle?

 

So if the black rage only came into being after Sanguinius's death, then who were the 'lost' of the early days, whose armour was scrubbed in black ink and who were welcomed to 'the company of death' as Raldoron said.

 

If they were just victims of the red thirst, it was obviously a far more severe form of it right? And it wouldn't be right for the more severe form, the irrecoverable one, to have its own name? Then why the black connection and why the appearance of both black and red threads during Kano's astral travels?

[Orblivion]

The Red Thirst has always been something that you can completely fall to, that is the purpose of the Tower of the Lost.  The marine we see at Melchior has lost himself fully to the Red Thirst, which is why he is just absentmindedly drinking blood, he doesn't even recognize/acknowledge that Sanguinius has entered the room.  What we see on Signus is roughly the level the Blood Angels currently see during the height of combat, and it abates when the combat ends.  Remember even the Red Thirst was relatively unheard of at the time, but it had slowly been increasing in frequency.

 

Concerning the black thread, the warp is home to many things.  That tied with the Blood Angels obvious affinity for foresight, it could very well be that Kano was simply seeing a representation of the future of his legion/chapter.

 

As far as the "company of death" line goes, there are two points I would like to bring up.  First is that the company of death referred to here isn't an actual company, it is just a list of Blood Angels that have died while under the influence of the Red Thirst, they were not entered into what we now know of as the Death Company.  The second, and more important point, is that I feel as if James Swallow himself does not really understand the difference between the two afflictions.  We saw him incorrectly use them interchangeably in the BA Omnibus as well, where he described Mephiston as beating the curse twice when clearly what happened to Mephiston in the Omnibus was the Red Thirst and not the Black Rage.  Bloodlust during combat is the Red Thirst, which can at times be more dangerous than the Black Rage since those who have fallen to the Red Thirst can reach a point where they no longer care whether they are facing friend or foe.  The Black Rage is the psychic affliction of believing they are Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra/aboard the Vengeful Spirit, without that illusion it is not the Black Rage.

[Valerian]

The Red Thirst has always been something that you can completely fall to, that is the purpose of the Tower of the Lost.  The marine we see at Melchior has lost himself fully to the Red Thirst, which is why he is just absentmindedly drinking blood, he doesn't even recognize/acknowledge that Sanguinius has entered the room.  What we see on Signus is roughly the level the Blood Angels currently see during the height of combat, and it abates when the combat ends.  Remember even the Red Thirst was relatively unheard of at the time, but it had slowly been increasing in frequency.

 

Concerning the black thread, the warp is home to many things.  That tied with the Blood Angels obvious affinity for foresight, it could very well be that Kano was simply seeing a representation of the future of his legion/chapter.

 

As far as the "company of death" line goes, there are two points I would like to bring up.  First is that the company of death referred to here isn't an actual company, it is just a list of Blood Angels that have died while under the influence of the Red Thirst, they were not entered into what we now know of as the Death Company.  The second, and more important point, is that I feel as if James Swallow himself does not really understand the difference between the two afflictions.  We saw him incorrectly use them interchangeably in the BA Omnibus as well, where he described Mephiston as beating the curse twice when clearly what happened to Mephiston in the Omnibus was the Red Thirst and not the Black Rage.  Bloodlust during combat is the Red Thirst, which can at times be more dangerous than the Black Rage since those who have fallen to the Red Thirst can reach a point where they no longer care whether they are facing friend or foe.  The Black Rage is the psychic affliction of believing they are Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra/aboard the Vengeful Spirit, without that illusion it is not the Black Rage.

I agree with this completely, but it probably is worth pointing out that only a few years ago the two concepts were not as discrete as they are now. Just looking back at the 2007 White Dwarf "codex", and the earlier 3e "minidex," there is some definite intermingling of the terms. No wonder there is so much confusion, when even the early designers didn't lay it out very straight for us.

 

Now, however, with the 5e codex placing a clear separation between the two concepts as seperate and distinct aspects of The Flaw, we should be able to keep everything straight.

[Shaezus]

Nice post Orblivion, those were the answers that were buzzing my thoughts as I posed the questions but to tell the truth I am just enjoying stringing this debate out and digging up other BA fans wealth of knowledge. I did think that the black thread may have been a portent of the future, but its presence suggests (also if you think of a DNA helix) that the black rage, or at least a vulnerability to it, is rooted in the very beginning of the chapter.

 

James Swallow did confuse things quite badly in the omnibus series. If we go by codex fluff alone it seems that the red thirst and the black rage are two separate routes, but can succumbing to the red thirst not also cause a Blood Angel to degenerate further so he is more likely then to fall to the black rage?

[Orblivion]

James Swallow did confuse things quite badly in the omnibus series. If we go by codex fluff alone it seems that the red thirst and the black rage are two separate routes, but can succumbing to the red thirst not also cause a Blood Angel to degenerate further so he is more likely then to fall to the black rage?

 

I definitely believe that is possible, the reverse as well.  Blood Angels typically feel the Red Thirst creeping up on them during combat and they suppress it through force of willpower.  A marine that has fallen to the Black Rage no longer cares about suppressing the Red Thirst, so its possible and even probable that once they actually enter combat they just completely lose their minds.

 

On a more personal note, I can't even explain how much of a joy it is to debate fluff without the conversation devolving into a flame war.  So I thank everyone involved in this thread.

[Valerian]

In my opinion, The Red Thirst is completely analogous to the Curse of the Wulfen for the Space Wolves.  I invite you guys to take a look over here at this thread that I put together on that topic over in The Fang.  I hope you enjoy it, and it might be worth further discussion here of the similarities between the two.

 

V

[Lucien Eilam]

Are you sure it is actually named 'the red thirst' in Fear To Tread?

Mentions of "red thirst" in Fear to Tread:

 

 

 

He knew where this crimson fury, this red thirst sprang from. He could sense it, coiled like a poisonous thread inside his own genetic helix. A dark bequest that he had passed on to his kin. A recessive death-mark.

The dark potentiality of a red thirst buried in each and every one of them, now dragged to the surface by… what? Magick and witchcraft?

Its claws clacked angrily. ‘And this red thirst is only the beginning. It will become more powerful than anything you have yet dreamed.’

Each warrior knew what he meant. The red thirst had come upon them all, and staggered them with its power.

Now every Blood Angel knows the burn of the red thirst, the shadow on their spirit… and the worst of it is, a greater darkness lies beneath that impulse.

 

 

The first is from before Signus Prime, in the scene where Horus witnesses Sanguinius killing Alotros. The phrase "black rage" is never used.

[FleshTearer5000]

Heart Of Rage Spoiler -

(I don't know how to do the spoiler drop down box thingy)

 

So in Heart of Rage, it speaks of Brother Kale falling to the 'Twin curse' of the red and the black, but he recovers by the end after being disabled by the Psyker, Nord. What do you guys think? He can't come back from both, surely?

[Memento Of Prospero]

I usually don't bash on authors this hard, but James Swallow is the actual curse the blood angels have to live with...

[FleshTearer5000]

I usually don't bash on authors this hard, but James Swallow is the actual curse the blood angels have to live with...

Haha, brutal, but fair. Yeah I found that point really obvious when I first listened to it. Shame, I quite like that audio drama.

[Jolemai]

Heart Of Rage Spoiler -

(I don't know how to do the spoiler drop down box thingy)

 

So in Heart of Rage, it speaks of Brother Kale falling to the 'Twin curse' of the red and the black, but he recovers by the end after being disabled by the Psyker, Nord. What do you guys think? He can't come back from both, surely?

 

[spoiler ]text here[/spoiler ]

 

but without the spaces :)

[Plague Angel]

 

The Red Thirst has always been something that you can completely fall to, that is the purpose of the Tower of the Lost.  The marine we see at Melchior has lost himself fully to the Red Thirst, which is why he is just absentmindedly drinking blood, he doesn't even recognize/acknowledge that Sanguinius has entered the room.  What we see on Signus is roughly the level the Blood Angels currently see during the height of combat, and it abates when the combat ends.  Remember even the Red Thirst was relatively unheard of at the time, but it had slowly been increasing in frequency.

 

Concerning the black thread, the warp is home to many things.  That tied with the Blood Angels obvious affinity for foresight, it could very well be that Kano was simply seeing a representation of the future of his legion/chapter.

 

As far as the "company of death" line goes, there are two points I would like to bring up.  First is that the company of death referred to here isn't an actual company, it is just a list of Blood Angels that have died while under the influence of the Red Thirst, they were not entered into what we now know of as the Death Company.  The second, and more important point, is that I feel as if James Swallow himself does not really understand the difference between the two afflictions.  We saw him incorrectly use them interchangeably in the BA Omnibus as well, where he described Mephiston as beating the curse twice when clearly what happened to Mephiston in the Omnibus was the Red Thirst and not the Black Rage.  Bloodlust during combat is the Red Thirst, which can at times be more dangerous than the Black Rage since those who have fallen to the Red Thirst can reach a point where they no longer care whether they are facing friend or foe.  The Black Rage is the psychic affliction of believing they are Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra/aboard the Vengeful Spirit, without that illusion it is not the Black Rage.

I agree with this completely, but it probably is worth pointing out that only a few years ago the two concepts were not as discrete as they are now. Just looking back at the 2007 White Dwarf "codex", and the earlier 3e "minidex," there is some definite intermingling of the terms. No wonder there is so much confusion, when even the early designers didn't lay it out very straight for us.

 

Now, however, with the 5e codex placing a clear separation between the two concepts as seperate and distinct aspects of The Flaw, we should be able to keep everything straight.

 

The Red Thirst and Black Rage being clear and separate afflictions that are different aspects of what is referred to as The Flaw, is in the 2nd edition codex.

 

Like many parts of the 5th edition codex, it's basically copy/pasted. There is nowhere near as much new text in that codex as people give it credit for, for better or worse.

 

(One day I want to do a text comparison between 2E and 5E. You'd be surprised how much of the "new fluff" that people blame Ward for "changing" is literally the exact same text.)

[Demoulius]

Im confused why people think it wasent clear at all in the older codexi? It was pretty clear to me

[Valerian]

 

The Red Thirst and Black Rage being clear and separate afflictions that are different aspects of what is referred to as The Flaw, is in the 2nd edition codex.

 

Like many parts of the 5th edition codex, it's basically copy/pasted. There is nowhere near as much new text in that codex as people give it credit for, for better or worse.

 

(One day I want to do a text comparison between 2E and 5E. You'd be surprised how much of the "new fluff" that people blame Ward for "changing" is literally the exact same text.)

Nah, wouldn't surprise me one bit, as most of the Space Wolves fluff has been copy-pasted since the late RT era Wolves of Fenris article. I just didn't have the old 2e Angels of Death codex to refer to, as I didn't start paying attention to Blood Angels, really, until 3e, so just referred to what I had to hand. It is clear, though, that at least a few authors have been confused by the dynamics of The Flaw, which has caused lingering confusion here, among the fanbase.

[Red Fury]

My understanding of the two come from mostly the pdf.dex and then some of the books.  I think it spells it out pretty clearly and tells how the red thirst is the BAs greatest curse.  It wasn't until 6th that all of the sudden the red thirst wasn't so bad and maybe you could control it.  Also, it was the Red Thirst that Mephiston overcame, not the black rage.  

 

from the pdf:

The Black Rage

The Blood Angels are unique in that deeply engraved within their gene-seed is the memory of the final battle between Sanguinius and Horus.  Sometimes an event or circumstance will trigger this race memory. This happens only rarely, often on the eve of battle, but it is likely to be a fatal experience for the battle-brother whose mind is wrenched into the distant past. What has become known as the Black Rage overcomes him. The  memories and consciousness of Sanguinius intrude upon his mind, and dire events 10,000 years old flood into the present. To others, a Space Marine overcome by the Black Rage appears half mad with fury. He is unable to distinguish past from present and does not recognize his comrades. As well as Sanguinius’s memories, the Space Marine is touched with a small portion of his unearthly power, boosting his strength and vitality to superhuman levels. Blood Angels afflicted by the Black Rage are formed into special units called the Death Company. Suffused with the dying memories of their Chapter’s Primarch, these cursed warriors seek only death in battle against the enemies of the Emperor. It is better this way, for those who survive almost always fall victim to the Red Thirst and turn into creatures no better than wild beasts craving flesh and blood. Better by far to die cleanly and quickly in battle than suffer such a fate.

The Red Thirst

The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels’ darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it a humility and  understanding of their own failings that make the Blood Angels the most truly noble of the Legiones Astartes. It is said that Sanguinius was cursed with the gift of prophesy and knew he was to die at Horus’s hand but went anyway in the name of duty and honour. Many Blood Angels battle constantly against visions of death and feel the anguish of their Primarch in his death throes. Some of these brethren voluntarily join the Death Company before the Black Rage takes them, because they know what lies in store for them should they live much longer. The fate of those overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is a secret kept dutifully within the Chapter. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal and of the howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what lies hidden in this haunted, desolate place.

Mephy

…but he did not succumb to the Red Thirst. A vision of beloved Sanguinius came to him and told him that he must resist, not just for himself but for us all, for then he would show us that the Red Thirst could be conquered.

 

Ok maybe it wasn't written that clear ... when they start talking about the Red Thirst, the second sentence bounced back to the Black Rage again.  But I think the point is that when you fall to the Red Thirst you are too far gone to even be fielded as DC.  Falling to the Black Rage means your time is limited until you become afflicted by the Red Thirst as well, so better to die in battle honorably.

[SnorriSnorrison]

From what I've known, the Red Thirst is the heritage of Sanguinius' geneseed, because its symptoms are described to surface before his death. Basically, the Blood Angels have that urge to spill blood, tear their enemies apart and do so with their bare hands, and that urge is most seen at the peak of battle, where the Sons of Sanguinius fall into a frenzy that puts fear into allies and enemies alike. If not kept in check, the Red Thirst can completely overwhelm a Marine and turn him into an empty shell that thirsts for fresh, warm blood. See the Tower of Amareo and those who inhabit it.

 

In contrast, the Black Rage is what happened after Sanguinus death, because the psychic imprint of his death can still be felt even after 10.000 years, and when the Blood Angels kneel down to prayer on the eve of battle, their geneseed might unlock the memories of their father's death, driving them completely insane. Think of a mixture of an alcoholic murder-machine on some sort of mind-expanding drugs. A hallucinating, fairly angry/aggressive murder-machine that can't tell friend from foe and strikes with a part of the strength of the Primarch itself, while it re-lives the Last Clash of the Arch-traitor and the Angel. Basically not someone you'd want to mess with.

 

The Red Thirst, as well as the Black Rage, will lead to death, in one way or another. Hopefully in glorious battle.

 

 

Snorri

[Orblivion]

From what I've known, the Red Thirst is the heritage of Sanguinius' geneseed, because its symptoms are described to surface before his death. Basically, the Blood Angels have that urge to spill blood, tear their enemies apart and do so with their bare hands, and that urge is most seen at the peak of battle, where the Sons of Sanguinius fall into a frenzy that puts fear into allies and enemies alike. If not kept in check, the Red Thirst can completely overwhelm a Marine and turn him into an empty shell that thirsts for fresh, warm blood. See the Tower of Amareo and those who inhabit it.

 

In contrast, the Black Rage is what happened after Sanguinus death, because the psychic imprint of his death can still be felt even after 10.000 years, and when the Blood Angels kneel down to prayer on the eve of battle, their geneseed might unlock the memories of their father's death, driving them completely insane. Think of a mixture of an alcoholic murder-machine on some sort of mind-expanding drugs. A hallucinating, fairly angry/aggressive murder-machine that can't tell friend from foe and strikes with a part of the strength of the Primarch itself, while it re-lives the Last Clash of the Arch-traitor and the Angel. Basically not someone you'd want to mess with.

 

The Red Thirst, as well as the Black Rage, will lead to death, in one way or another. Hopefully in glorious battle.

 

 

Snorri

 

Spot on Snorri, the only thing I would like to add is that I believe most marines who have fallen to the Black Rage can differentiate between friend and foe, at least at first.  The stories that visit the minds of these marines depict their illusions working in sync with what is actually happening around them.  For instance the story of Captain Tycho's last stand shows him speaking with Lemartes, knowing that he is almost completely gone he makes a final request.  By the end of the conversation Tycho calls Lemartes "Dorn", and Lemartes knows right then that Tycho has completely fallen to the Black Rage at that point.  Once they are in the heat of battle they likely fall to the Red Thirst as well and lose all semblance on self/sanity.

 

As for Mephiston, I don't have my codex handy to check the exact wording, but I think it's just odd wording that is throwing you off Red Fury.  Mephiston fell to the Black Rage and was inducted into the Death Company.  While in the Death Company he was buried under rubble and could not move.  Even in this weakened and furious state he DID NOT succumb to the Red Thirst, and eventually overcame the Black Rage that originally afflicted him.

 

EDIT:  Now that I am home and checked my codex, Mephiston's entry never even mentions the Red Thirst.  I'm not sure where you're getting that from Red Fury.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Would recommend ADB's At Gaius Point to read for the reason that it's a tale involving the Flesh Tearers on Armageddon, one suffering from the Black Rage who gets loose and another hunting for him, and Torturer's Thirst by Andy Smillie for another variation on the rage.

 

But yeah, Red Thirst always led to the Tower of Amareo, think there was a pic of it in 2nd edition codex and that DC were killed after deployed if they survived combat but with exception being Lemartes.

 

Slightly related but what happens to the armour of the DC after they die, does it get repainted back to red for future marines to receive or as well their gene-seed?  

[Red Fury]

 Once they are in the heat of battle they likely fall to the Red Thirst as well and lose all semblance on self/sanity.

Yes ^ I think this is it exactly.

 

As for Mephiston, I don't have my codex handy to check the exact wording, but I think it's just odd wording that is throwing you off Red Fury.  Mephiston fell to the Black Rage and was inducted into the Death Company.  While in the Death Company he was buried under rubble and could not move.  Even in this weakened and furious state he DID NOT succumb to the Red Thirst, and eventually overcame the Black Rage that originally afflicted him

 

 

According to the pdf dex, it was the Red Thirst that he overcame;

 

CHIEF LIBRARIAN MEPHISTON

Brother Calistarius is the only warrior ever to overcome the

Red Thirst. After an agonizing ordeal, he was reborn as

Mephiston, Lord of Death.

[Orblivion]

Would recommend ADB's At Gaius Point to read for the reason that it's a tale involving the Flesh Tearers on Armageddon, one suffering from the Black Rage who gets loose and another hunting for him, and Torturer's Thirst by Andy Smillie for another variation on the rage.

 

But yeah, Red Thirst always led to the Tower of Amareo, think there was a pic of it in 2nd edition codex and that DC were killed after deployed if they survived combat but with exception being Lemartes.

 

Slightly related but what happens to the armour of the DC after they die, does it get repainted back to red for future marines to receive or as well their gene-seed?  

 

I would imagine that yes, their armour returns to the armoury to be used by another marine at some point.  It would likely need repairs, and would be repainted in the chapter's colors during those repairs.

 

EDIT:  @Red Fury, exactly how old is this PDF codex you have?  Because the most recent BA codex states Black Rage and never mentions the Red Thirst in Mephiston's entry.

[Plague Angel]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the one that was printed in WD.

[Valerian]

It was published in 2007, IIRC in two consecutive White Dwarfs.