Gav's at it again?...

[Brother dean]

Anybody read this and have a golly gee moment?   

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-at-bl/extract-from-new-dark-angels-story.html

 

Sam 10th co Blademaster for 7 years

Belial Blademaster for 6 years after that..

And now they are dueling for the 14th year's Blademasters award?

 

So Sam has spent 14 years as a fully trained Marine.  Fully trained enough to compete (and possibly win) the best scout with a blade?  There werent any openings in the line companies for 14 years?

 

Kinda defies logic there...

[Tiger9gamer]

wait, what? please explain a bit more o-o

[SvenONE]

I can't fully form an opinion since I haven't read it yet, but I've never been a fan of Gav Thorpe, I consider him to be a glorified fan fiction writer.

[Lucien Eilam]

He's talking about this passage:
 

‘You can never best me,’ Belial said solemnly, raising the training blade to the salute. He did not seem to take pleasure in the lecture, but felt compelled to pass on the lesson. ‘You hope that a moment of genius will best a more efficient, superior swordsman.’

‘It takes only a moment to win,’ replied Sammael, replicating the salute.

Around them the rest of the Tenth watched. The honour of being this year’s Company Seneschal, the Scout Blademaster, was to be decided again. Belial had held it for the last six years, and Sammael had been the defeated finalist for the last three. Before Belial’s arrival, Sammael had been Blademaster for seven years.

So Sam has spent 14 years as a fully trained Marine.

 
I don't think there's any basis for that statement. Belial was apparently Blademaster from the first time he competed, despite Sammael having been competing at least 7 years longer.  There isn't enough information to conclude anything about how long they'd been in the Scout company or how far through their training this is supposed to take place.

[FerociousBeast]

I read the same thing yesterday and had a bit of a think on it. The math doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny. Sammael is blademaster for 7 years, Belial is Blademaster for 6 years, and they are competing for this year, making 7+6+1=14 years in the 10th for Sammael.

 

Let us assume that Sammael spends only those 14 years in the 10th company and is then promoted to full battle brother at the age of 20. (Because at 18 a Scout is old enough to take the black carapace.) He would have had to have joined the 10th at age 6. And bested all other 10th company novitiates to claim the title of Blademaster, some of whom no doubt were nearing the end of their novitiate period and must be around 18 or 20 themselves. At the age of 6. We're talking about a kindergartner beating up the high school football team here.

 

Furthermore, if he had in fact been Blademaster for 7 years, then lost to Belial, then taken second place for only the last 3 of Belial's 6, that means that for the first 3, there was another number 2. So Sammael is at the top for 7 years, from ages 6 to 13, then loses to not only Belial but at least one other novitiate as well for three years, then finally bests this unknown competitor for the next 3 years. Not impossible, but just kind of weird.

 

The only way I can explain it is

Sammael's mind was much more seriously effected by the psychic attack than we thought... :)

 

[Brother dean]

Exactly what FB said...   At 18 is the established age for implantation of the Carapace, after that scouts are trained on power armor and then wait for an opening in companies 3-9 (usually 3rd-5th coy.)  Since 3-5 take the highest casualties (next to 2nd) I would think they wouldnt have to wait long.  Especially since the more skilled get selected quicker.

[Lucien Eilam]

Or maybe we shouldn't take as gospel a table of implantation ages originally published one month after a detailed look at the 3rd Founding Ultramarines, with their gene-sperm and Heavy Hoverers and half Eldar Chief Librarian.

[RayJ]

It could be that Belial beat Sammael in the semi-final rounds in years "8-10". It does seem an awfully long time to be a scout though, in either case.

[Brother dean]

Well he was nice enough to engage me on Twitter...  I still have issues with a 16 y/o scout winning blademaster over a 30y/o... but I understand his POV.

 

 

 

1. 1. Dean ‏@Ammobunkerdean  2h

      @DennisHamster So. The fluff that DAs have reduced training time to two years as a scout has been abandoned? 13 years still seems excessive

       

       

       

       

      6:36 AM - 17 Jun 2014 · Details
   2. Gav Thorpe ‏@DennisHamster  1h

      @Ammobunkerdean I figure scouts would need at least ten years, but that's just my view of things. 2 years seems very short.

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   3. Dean ‏@Ammobunkerdean  54m

      @DennisHamster Two years Pre-Heresy training. I see slower now but 14 years as one of the top three scouts? Strains suspension of disbelief.

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   4. Gav Thorpe ‏@DennisHamster  49m

      @Ammobunkerdean Scouts recruit c.12 yrs old. Even with geneseed, can't see them being fully mature for 7 or 8 years, then more training.

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   5. Dean ‏@Ammobunkerdean  10m

      @DennisHamster Agreed, but you are saying that a 12y/o Sam beat everyone and is still fighting Belial for the title at 26. 7+6+1=14 years

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      Gav Thorpe ‏@DennisHamster  4m

      @Ammobunkerdean I freely admit that most of this is in Gavworld and not the codexes!

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   Gav Thorpe ‏@DennisHamster  5m

   @Ammobunkerdean ... which is why they are better than a lot of other race's normal or even elite troops (ignoring Blood Claws etc) 2/2

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3. Gav Thorpe ‏@DennisHamster  6m

   @Ammobunkerdean No, but in my head scouts are 30+ before they become battle brothers - veterans by anyone else's standards... 1/2

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[A D-B]

Gotta say, 10 years seems fair. This is the training required to become a Space Marine, we're talking about. Not just waiting for dead man's boots and assignment to a Battle Company. This thread's surprised me a fair bit: anything less than 10 years seems pretty difficult for me to imagine. 

[Brother dean]

I understand and agree with around 10 years...  that isnt the issue, the issue is that Sammael came along right after he was inducted and whipped EVERYONE (even those with 10 years training under their belts) at blades for 7 years and then was in the finals for 4 out of the next 7 years and hasn't been scooped up by a line company.

 

Sounds like a perfect recruit for the 8th or any assault squad in a battle company... 

[Lucien Eilam]

It's almost like there's more to learn than fencing before you get to be a Space Marine.

[FerociousBeast]

Gotta say, 10 years seems fair. This is the training required to become a Space Marine, we're talking about. Not just waiting for dead man's boots and assignment to a Battle Company. This thread's surprised me a fair bit: anything less than 10 years seems pretty difficult for me to imagine. 

 

10 years totally seems fair. Only issue is that it doesn't jive with the old timeline as I remember it, where a Scout gets his black carapace at 18. I don't have the material at hand, though, so could be that they get the carapace and then have to wait years more before getting power armor. Either way, I like Gav's timeline better than the one in my head, so whether it's a retcon or not I'm okay with it.

[A D-B]

While you're here, FB, a brief OT question: Are you going to do more articles in the future? I liked those. I have vague hopes of you doing a Blood Angel-based dealio like your old Codex Terminator one.

[Wade Garrett]

It's almost like there's more to learn than fencing before you get to be a Space Marine.

Hear, hear!

 

Why, I seem to vaguely recall some Black Library author writing a book which dwelt upon the difference between being skilled at gladiatorial one on one contests and being a good soldier at some length.

 

I think it was Sarah Cawkwell. ;)

[ValourousHeart]

I haven't read this yet, but one quick question came to mind.

 

Is Sam a lowly scout initiate or is he a sergent?

My understanding is that the sergents are not scouts but full marines that are tasked with training the scouts.

This would account for the long duration he is with the 10th company.

[FerociousBeast]

While you're here, FB, a brief OT question: Are you going to do more articles in the future? I liked those. I have vague hopes of you doing a Blood Angel-based dealio like your old Codex Terminator one.

Well, thank you, I appreciate that. B&C seems to have misplaced my old termie analysis, unfortunately, but inspiration does still strike from time to time. I don't know much about the Blood Angels codex, though I've always really liked their repressed vampire theme. Love the juxtaposition of the chapter's lofty nobility with their sinister, gothic urges. Just wish someone at the BL would do it justice! *hint*

[Phoebus]

Gav didn't mention this, but there could be another angle that you could easily assume behind a ten (or longer) year service with the Scouts:  the Dark Angels' thematic desire for individuals to prove themselves before being accepted in ever-shrinking circles of trust.

 

The most obvious applications of these are the Ravenwing, the Deathwing, the various ranks within each, and the various levels of the Inner Circle... but what about graduating from the Scouts?  What about the lords of the Dark Angels not wanting to bring in a new battle-brother until he's shown that he possesses the right discipline and the proper temperament?  Isn't Sammael's rash and impatient nature - as described in that story - precisely the sort of trait that might plausibly see him kept longer than normal in the Tenth Company, despite his obvious talent and skill?

 

Where his age is concerned, and the plausibility of being a Blademaster for one so young... for all we know, Sammael may have been in the Tenth for longer than just those fourteen years.  A stretch in some peoples' eyes, I'm sure, but we're talking about a fighting institution whose theoretical lifespans last for several centuries.  And within that institution, we're talking about a fairly obsessive, controlling bunch.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I like what Phoebus says. While I have not read the actual book this is from, I think the context I have gleaned can be covered sufficiently through the compromise that he presents. Additionally, we have never really had the entire process of training explained for quite a while, and we know Chapters differ. The Dark Angels taking slightly longer doesn't break anything, and I highly suspect they would do a case by case decision when deciding the moment to raise each brother from the 10th Company

[FerociousBeast]

Well I like the idea of scouts turning battle brother around 25 or 30. It just makes sense. Fluff in brain updated.

[FerociousBeast]

As for Sammael beating 30 year olds in dueling at 16, that is completely sensible and possible. In fact if you read ancient literature and history, like the sagas of the Norse, you'll find that such feats are regularly described.

[Cactus]

There's a broader discussion of scout training periods in Amicus Aedes. Worrh checking out.

[Lucien Eilam]

I haven't read this yet, but one quick question came to mind.

 

Is Sam a lowly scout initiate or is he a sergent?

My understanding is that the sergents are not scouts but full marines that are tasked with training the scouts.

This would account for the long duration he is with the 10th company.

 

The Scout bit is a brief flashback, with very few details beyond the fact that he's duelling Belial and loses. The story is about Sammael being tested for ascension to Master of the Ravenwing. He's the last surviving Black Knight after the previous Master led the Ravenwing into a Fallen ambush and got himself and a third of the Company killed.

[Brother dean]

A brief Postscript of my conversation yesterday...

 

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2. 
   Ammobunkerdean  20h

   @DennisHamster Thanks for engaging. I still do like Angels of Darkness even tho all the grief given over the revelations from a heritic POV.

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Gav Thorpe‏@DennisHamster

@Ammobunkerdean Just wait until The Unforgiven comes out next year :D

 

 

 

Well :cuss: what is Astelan going to say this time...
 

[Phoebus]

I can think of two things that Astelan could say that would be potentially earth-shattering to the Dark Angels (assuming they believed him):

1. Astelan witnessed the final battle between Luther and the Lion and reveals to the Dark Angels that the "savior of Caliban" did not, in fact, kill the primarch.

2. Astelan reveals how Caliban was tainted by daemons, how Luther believed that the Lion left their planet to its fate, and that this is why he rebelled.

Where #2 is concerned, I don't think the Dark Angels would give it a second thought.  I think they would simply call him a liar and go back to trying to redeem him.

 

Now that having been said, it may not be about what Astelan has to say at all, but what Cypher has to say to the Inner Circle.  Cypher and his aims have been shrouded in mystery and contradiction since the character was first showcased.  Whatever his interactions end up being with the Inner Circle, they have the potential to redefine what we know about the Dark Angels and how we think of them.

 

And yet...

 

I can't wait for Book Three, but there's somewhat of an anticlimax lurking around it.  Consider that none of the events of this trilogy thus far have been about Abaddon's Thirteenth Black Crusade.  Everything seems to be happening between 997.M41 (when Belial ascended to the Deathwing) and 998.M41 (or very early 999.M41).  What does this mean?  Cypher has been captured, but given that the entire thrust of the Dark Angels' known involvement in the upcoming Black Crusade is to go capture the Voice of the Emperor (who they believe to be Cypher)...

 

I think you see what I'm getting at.  Unless Gav's aiming for a massive dismissal of what we know about the Dark Angels and the Thirteenth Black Crusade*, it does not appear that the Unforgiven are fundamentally changed by their encounter with him.  Their M.O. appears to be the same.  Their methods appear to be the same (see: Dark Vengeance).

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see!

* And hey, that wouldn't be a take that's unique to Gav.  A D-B, for instance, has stated in the past that he doesn't feel the gaming material/reports of a gaming campaign from a decade ago should be binding when it comes to writing literature.  I'm sure other Black Library authors besides him feel that way - otherwise, we wouldn't have seen as many changes and surprises where the Horus Heresy is concerned.  :)