Seahawk Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Leman Russ tanks come with Smoke Launchers. They have the option to purchase another set of Smoke Launchers in the wargear list. Does this mean they have two sets of Smoke Launchers, and can thus pop smokes twice in a game? Same for searchlights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It says you can take up to one of each of the items on that list, and they already have one, so I would say they don't have the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 They're only taking it once though. It's been done for years with SM, where a rhino with a storm bolter could take another storm bolter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 It's a case of what's the final result? Is ze Leman Russ adherent with the wargear section for vehicles in the armoury? No because it has two items of wargear it was specifically only given permission for one. Same goes for the Command squad upgrades and wargear choices for veterans in the same squad. Is it a model with a selection of wargear it can't have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 So we all cheated in the past, with rhinos that had two storm bolters? It's not breaking the system at all. Let's break it down: UNIT Comes with: - X - Y - Z OPTIONS "Can take up to 1 of each of the following:" - V - W - X - Y You purchase the optional X only once. No rules breaking yet. You have two X's by virtue that you had one before purchasing a single X. No rules have yet been broken. "Unit" and all it contains is separate from "Options" and all it contains, leaving us with two of a certain item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Leman Russ tanks come with Smoke Launchers. They have the option to purchase another set of Smoke Launchers in the wargear list. Does this mean they have two sets of Smoke Launchers, and can thus pop smokes twice in a game? Same for searchlights. I don't think so, the rules on page 98 of the BRB make no mention of sets of smoke launchers. I think it implies that you'd fire them all off at once, regardless of how many sets you have. Similarly, I don't see how multiple searchlights would benefit without also having something like PotMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Ya, as counter-intuitive as it is: "Once per game.....a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them." You have 2 sets - you can still only do it once per game by that verbiage :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The Rhino example is an invalid one. It comes with a Storm Bolter as its weapon and then you purchase a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter. If it came with a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter and then allowed you to purchase a pintle-mounted Stom Bolter, then you might be on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Bit like taking an example of Predators being able to buy Sponson Lascannons in addition to the Turreted T-L Lascannon, really? It doesn't line up logically with the analogy you're trying to make. There's no advantage to two Smoke Launchers, as you can only fire them once per Shooting Phase, and they just grant a flat 5+ Cover rather than Stealth/Shrouded. Searchlights are the same, unless you're using PotMS to Split Fire, but again you have two identically-named pieces of wargear there, just doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The Rhino example is an invalid one. It comes with a Storm Bolter as its weapon and then you purchase a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter. If it came with a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter and then allowed you to purchase a pintle-mounted Stom Bolter, then you might be on to something. I think you'll find that there is no longer such a thing as a 'pintle-mounted storm bolter' in the Space Marine Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The Rhino example is an invalid one. It comes with a Storm Bolter as its weapon and then you purchase a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter. If it came with a pintle-mounted Storm Bolter and then allowed you to purchase a pintle-mounted Stom Bolter, then you might be on to something. I think you'll find that there is no longer such a thing as a 'pintle-mounted storm bolter' in the Space Marine Codex. Would you be kind enough to quote the entry in the 40k rulebook please? Does the wording no longer say where this extra Storm Bolter is mounted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 It is a good counter point by Seahawk. I was about to agree with him until I read Brother Casman's, Morticon's and CoffeGrunt's responses. I'd actually prefer the Leman Russ to repeatedly use smoke launchers since it reduces their firepower substantially. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Would you be kind enough to quote the entry in the 40k rulebook please? Does the wording no longer say where this extra Storm Bolter is mounted? Other than saying that pintle-mounted weapons have a 360-degree firing arc, the Rulebook has little to say on the subject. The Space Marine Codex only lists a 'storm bolter' in the vehicle equipment list, much like the Rhino entry lists a 'storm bolter'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Would you be kind enough to quote the entry in the 40k rulebook please? Does the wording no longer say where this extra Storm Bolter is mounted? Note that full quotations from the BWB are currently not permitted in order to avoid rule fishing. The relevant rules to pintle-mounted weapons are found in the Vehicles Shooting section of the rules. The weapons are "as model" however the two circular hatches at the front of the vehicle are the obvious mounts for the original storm bolter and the additional pintle-mounted one (should it be purchased). You could do a Razorback styled conversion if you wanted though... or have it hull mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 What I was after was the description of the entry in the BRB vehicle wargear section. If I draw your attention to Codex Blood Angels, page 60 - Vehicle Equipment: Storm BolterPintle-mounted storm bolters are weapons fitted to Space Marine vehicles to provide additional fire support. Pintlemounted storm bolters are treated as an additional defensive weapon, with the profile of a normal storm bolter. See the storm bolter entry for details. I am aware that as an older publication, this has now been replaced with: See the relevant entry in the BRB and, I will concede that these are no longer called pintle-mounted storm bolters in name. However, my point is that the entry specifically tells us that this item of purchasable equipment is pintle-mounted and not the same as the storm bolter that the Rhino has as standard wargear. Today, we are simply told to consult the BRB (which I do not have to hand right now). If there is no distinction made in the BRB entry (i.e the vehicle equipment entry is an exact copy of the wargear entry) then I will have to accept the argument but to claim to for years they are one and the same and to use a Rhino as a counter argument in this context to me, is invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I meant the original stormbolter, to which no weapon mount is specified. The other must be pintle-mounted if the codex entry specifies that is where it's mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 but again you have two identically-named pieces of wargear there, just doesn't work. There is absolutely nothing in the game that disallows having two of the same piece of wargear. Doesn't matter what happened before, anyhow. It's currently listed as: Wargear: Stormbolter Options: Stormbolter Any vehicle may have two of the same item, if one is part of their base cost and the other is an option on the equipment list. That is indisputable. I was wondering what the effects would be of having smoke launchers/searchlights twice, or if it doesn't matter much at all. Considering its verbiage, "a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them", I would be inclined to think that no matter how many "sets" I have, they can only be triggered once per game still, all at the same time. "Them" is the little bugger here. ;) I'd actually prefer the Leman Russ to repeatedly use smoke launchers since it reduces their firepower substantially. Au contraire, a tank commander's squadron can, with a successful order, shoot all weapons at full effect, then trigger smoke launchers. I was writing a tanker list (as I'd just won 4 more LR with FW turrets on ebay for cheap), and the thought occurred to me that I could pull the stunt twice. Sadly, that seems to not be the case. Good catch by Casman and Morticon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them Them being plural, as you always buy Smoke Launchers, not a Smoke Launcher. It doesn't mean you have multiple Smoke Launchers as separate Wargear, merely that each Smoke Launchers upgrade incorporates multiple in it. (Typically two if sprues are anything to go by.) With that in mind, it's pretty redundant as you only get a flat 5+ regardless of how many fire off, because again, the language of the rule is tailored to the idea that the Smoke Launchers are a single upgrade but a pair of actual items on the model. Hence you don't fire a Smoke Launcher, you fire Smoke Launchers. Can Smoke Launchers only be triggered once per game? I thought it was once per Shooting Phase if you traded your shooting for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 The cover save was never in question, and not what I was addressing. Smokes are once per game, no more. Because of the "them", it means all are triggered at the same time, no matter how many "sets" you may have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Au contraire, a tank commander's squadron can, with a successful order, shoot all weapons at full effect, then trigger smoke launchers. I was writing a tanker list (as I'd just won 4 more LR with FW turrets on ebay for cheap), and the thought occurred to me that I could pull the stunt twice. Sadly, that seems to not be the case. Good catch by Casman and Morticon. Heh, glad I could help. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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