Chaos Rhinos in 7th

[DraneceusRex]

With Rhinos getting a buff with the new edition, how is everyone planning on running them? I'm strongly considering Havok Launchers + Combi-Meltas.

[Emperors Immortals]

Blaster box; Noisrmarines, max blasters and a havok launcher.

 

I want to try using them as a fast screen for MoK troops, one of the big chaos names will be along to give a better idea though.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Dozerblade - you want to get to those objectives a bit farther away. Not sure about combi-weapons and launchers.

[the jeske]

Not a dedicted transport for cultists , so I would say that I don't see them being run that much. csm nor pm got much better in 7th , and all the other units that had to run rhinos to work[plasma chosen without infiltrate,zerkers etc] were sub par to begin with. 3-4 rhinos , even naked cost too much for us. 

[brother_contagion]

I've always run them with Extra Armor, but now that they're a bit harder to kill I think I'll add a Combi-Flamer or Melta to them or a Havoc Launcher.

[Clone]

Not a dedicted transport for cultists , so I would say that I don't see them being run that much. csm nor pm got much better in 7th , and all the other units that had to run rhinos to work[plasma chosen without infiltrate,zerkers etc] were sub par to begin with. 3-4 rhinos , even naked cost too much for us.

Seriously? It seems that you hate every unit csm codex. Every topic where someone is asking for advice about units you always seem to turn around and say it's useless. Do you have anything positive to say about our codex?

[incinerator950]

No.

[Emperors Immortals]

Clone, jeske is as jeske is. He's very valuable as he will give an unbiased rules first tourney view point.

 

But he is also romantic, ask jeske which unit he wantsto be useful, I bet 1k sons is up there.

 

If not for optimism and love of background, why would anybody want 1k sons to be decent?

 

 

To;dr - thejeske= not popular cut throat truth. It still true though.

[Clone]

Clone, jeske is as jeske is. He's very valuable as he will give an unbiased rules first tourney view point.

 

But he is also romantic, ask jeske which unit he wantsto be useful, I bet 1k sons is up there.

 

If not for optimism and love of background, why would anybody want 1k sons to be decent?

 

 

To;dr - thejeske= not popular cut throat truth. It still true though.

But my point is that the csm codex is all we have. Why keep comparing it to other codicies that we don't use. So what if rhinos are expensive for us? If we shouldn't use them because a different codex gets them for less points, go play that codex instead or at least try to offer some sort of alternative.

 

Tbh, I don't see nay saying the entire codex as being useful advice.

 

I may not play competitively but my rhinos have performed great as objective grabbers. Just a 10 man csm squad with plasma or melta works great with objective secured. I tend to take my rhinos cheap with just a dozer for an upgrade.

[Deadman Wade]

I take only dozer blades, as I've lost a few games just because my rhinos got immobilized by terrain. Also, they need either move to objectives ASAP, or use smoke launchers when they are in the open, so I don't use their weapons very often.

I take a lot of rhinos now, and often borrow some from our local players. CSM are excellent at capping objectives in maelstrom missions, so there's no reasons not to take cheap 35 pts transport/los blocker.

As for their price, it's 35 points, seven of them cost only as much as land raider, and each is scoring vehicle that is more durable than a squad of cultists.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I've always use Rhinos in my Iron Warriors army in 5th ed, 6th ed & it will not change for 7th ed.  I like having mech heavy armies, I'm not keen on static gun line armies, I'm not to keen on useing hoard armies.  I like converting & painting tank models, I think ever unit that can in my Iron Warriors force has a transport of there own.

 

I usely run my Rhinos with extra armour as I want to keep them on the move, get them where I need them & not be effected by stun result?.  Also I like converting the extra armour plate.

The rest - Havoc launcher, Dozer blade, dire cast & Combi weapon (Melta/Plasma) just come down to point end of the day & what the unit will be doing in my army list.  For exsample last year for Rapid Fire tournament, I'd taken a 5x Chaos Marine unit w/Melta & Champion w/Combi Melta, this unit would look after object in Emperor Will or aim to get line breacker & general support other unit, but I'd give there Rhino a Havoc launcher just for that range fire power & it just look cool converting the Havoc launcher useing the weapon from the Space Marine Hunter kit? as it fitted the Iron Warriors look.

 

IP

 

 

 

[Sn4k30r]

Mech goes way better in 7th than 6th i never stopped playing mech, 4+ rhinos is the best way to go, 1-2 are low so easy first blood still no mobility the rest of the army.... 

 

I think Havoc-launchers are cool for the long range, but keep them cheap no need to waste more points on them, maybe the best choice now is the dozer blades, i never liked paying for a re-roll on dt but now with an extra boost for ram +1S i think its cool and not risking for dts, while rushing forward or staying mid game bunker mode. 

 

Cultists aren´t that good people think they are anymore....now you get 2xtroops when you get an extra rhino for the CSM, or other troops from elite choices, and is way better than a useless blob of cultist that cant even open a vehicle!  and just stay back...

 

Rhinos is a must, harder to be detroyed only by Hullpoints or heavy ap weapons :D 

 

i think 5x PMs 2xmelta or plasma  with rhinos are the best choice by far now for troops (hq as MoN) 

 

Tough troop tough transport, add 1-2 Pms and 1-2 CSM with rhinos and u get 6-8 scoring units... 

 

Positives : mobility, Tank-shocks, ram and you can use special-heavy weapons not risking being out in the open from the hatch.... So lets say you have 3troops + 35p x3 rhinos each you get for 100p 3 more scoring units, isnt worthy? for those i explain i above? 

 

I Was winning in 6th edition where vehicles where funny vs smash and tons of shots etc... explodes on 6 etc.... NOW is payback time imagine now that vehicles are WAY better.....

[Deadman Wade]

Also, with new damage table passengers can be hurt only by AP2 or AP1 weapons, and this is great. No more explosions from some missile launchers, IG battle cannons, scatter lasers or serpent fields, which could destroy rhinos, cause a few casualties and leave your troops in the open.

[Dam13n]

I always run at least 2 rhinos.  7th may see me squeeze in a 3rd or even 4th.

 

The changes to scoring, plus the increased need to be mobile and the increased resilience of vehicles makes them very useful.

 

- Havok launchers are a good bet if your army is lacking in anti-horde firepower.  A 48" range, S5 AP5, Twin-linked Blast is brilliant for it's cost.

- Combi-weapons could be useful, particularly Combi-meltas.  Nobody will expect a rhino to take on another vehicle and AP1 is more useful than ever.

- I haven't bothered with extra armour since 5th edition, I doubt I'll be changing my mind now... it's just too pricey for an upgrade that does little in my local meta.

- Dozer Blades are useful.  But only on a Rhino that'll be going forwards.

 

I'd be tempted to run (2 Combined Arms detachments):

- Slaanesh Lord with Burning Brand (joins Black Legion Flamer Chosen)

- Rhino with Havok Launcher (5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster)

- Rhino with Havok Launcher (5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster)

- Black Legion Warsmith of Slaanesh with Spineshiver Blade (joins Melta unit)

- Rhino with Combi-melta and Dozer Blade (5 Black Legion Chosen with Flamers)

- Rhino with Combi-melta and Dozer Blade (5 Black Legion Chosen with Meltaguns)

Black Legion rules giving the Chosen "Objective Secured"

 

Combined with my usual Vindicator and Predator(s), I should have a pretty decent mechanised Iron Warrior list to play with.  The Rhinos being an important part of the way the army will function on the table.

[Sn4k30r]

Yeah so it is, with other troops-elites selections rhinos is a must in this edition and since with a Leadership you ignore the result on passengers, its the best way to have mobile-protected troops and doubles your scoring units, 

 

I am keen on use either havoc launcher-combi-weapon bolter, or dozer dont know what is best from all as i think is better to keep low the point cost.

[Chaeron]

 

Not a dedicted transport for cultists , so I would say that I don't see them being run that much. csm nor pm got much better in 7th , and all the other units that had to run rhinos to work[plasma chosen without infiltrate,zerkers etc] were sub par to begin with. 3-4 rhinos , even naked cost too much for us.

Seriously? It seems that you hate every unit csm codex. Every topic where someone is asking for advice about units you always seem to turn around and say it's useless. Do you have anything positive to say about our codex?

 

 

Rarely, but that's the fault of the Codex, rather than jeske - who will give a truthful assessment of meta and codex equivalency.

 

I'll still take them - they're better than before, but I won't be tooling them excessively.

[Clone]

 

 

Not a dedicted transport for cultists , so I would say that I don't see them being run that much. csm nor pm got much better in 7th , and all the other units that had to run rhinos to work[plasma chosen without infiltrate,zerkers etc] were sub par to begin with. 3-4 rhinos , even naked cost too much for us.

Seriously? It seems that you hate every unit csm codex. Every topic where someone is asking for advice about units you always seem to turn around and say it's useless. Do you have anything positive to say about our codex?

 

 

Rarely, but that's the fault of the Codex, rather than jeske - who will give a truthful assessment of meta and codex equivalency.

 

I'll still take them - they're better than before, but I won't be tooling them excessively.

 

We all know other codicies out perform ours in a competitive setting but we don't play those codicies, we play C:CSM. Rhinos and Land Raiders are all we've got for transport so instead simply saying Rhinos are rubbish why not give positive advice. Lots of people in this thread have discussed how they use their Rhinos without having to say how C:CSM is crap and everything is over costed.

 

Really grinds my gears sometimes but then I'm in a grumpy mood today (so says the wife).

[Sn4k30r]

Hm... i see your point, Jeske tries to be competitive in his own way like about none vehicles or using cultists, what is expensive or not, the fact is how a same point cost with all other marines rhino is rubbish? Land raider yes it hasnt have POTM but is cheaper and can be taken as dedicated for 3only only terminators, 

 

Sometimes you see a cheap unit (cultists) troop  the only thing they can do is controlling as blob an objective, 

 

See other entries as i described above, they can take transport, mobility, rams-tank shocks, bunker shooting no risk,.... 

 

And every codex has good entries and bad entries...  e.g Helldrakes-mutilators,       Stormraven- scout bikers :D

 

Anyway the fact is make your own Competitive or not list and u see what is lacking of,

 

For example many people told me when i had rhinos, YOu play rhinos? its easy fragile 2 of them , yes but when you have 5+  plus extra vehicles tanks or whatever how many AT you think the enemy has to deal with it?  and everytime you kill a unit of his AT your AV grows stronger and your infantry is untouched.... 

 

And with supplements everything is Ok i think no bad codexes.... some are surely more favored but their strength lowered too with 7th, like wave serpents spam with jink now they do snap-shots!

[incinerator950]

No bad codexes in the same way cold doesn't exist with the terminology as it is the absence of heat.

 

To that effect, anyone can win, it's just everyone, save nids and da, have a stronger codex. Some of us purely play the strongest to win always to minimize catastrophic luck and just fore more upperhands, I certainly do in a few other games.

 

I actually wouldn't mind a blasterbox rhinoback. However, I doubt I'd go Slannesh in this current frame.

[A D-B]

 

 

Not a dedicted transport for cultists , so I would say that I don't see them being run that much. csm nor pm got much better in 7th , and all the other units that had to run rhinos to work[plasma chosen without infiltrate,zerkers etc] were sub par to begin with. 3-4 rhinos , even naked cost too much for us.

Seriously? It seems that you hate every unit csm codex. Every topic where someone is asking for advice about units you always seem to turn around and say it's useless. Do you have anything positive to say about our codex?

 

 

Rarely, but that's the fault of the Codex, rather than jeske - who will give a truthful assessment of meta and codex equivalency.

 

 

Of his meta, and his perceptions of Codex equivalence. But that's not what most people ask, and it's not particularly detailed or useful for a lot of folks. Jeske has a lot of respect around here because he explains how to win in an ultra-competitive setting. But the overwhelming majority of the hobby's population doesn't play in ultra-competitive settings, so his information is critically less informative. I know perhaps 40 or 50 players. None of them would ever play the bleeding edge lists you find in a tournament. That doesn't mean they don't care about winning - it just means they wouldn't take cookie cutter internet lists in an environment where no one else is. And that's the problem with Jeske's attitude, and what people are starting to grow weary of: it's meaningless outside of situations where you're pitched against the same level of ultra-competitiveness and cookie cutter "best" lists. It's wisdom and logic founded entirely on playing in that exact setting.

 

One of the reasons I like Imperator Guides so much is that it reviews units in a realistic and balanced way - not just railing at what they aren't compared to Unit X in Codex Y, but actually listing ways they're useful and can be used in-game. Like an actual guide. With actual information. With a balanced look.

 

The most boring problem in the Chaos Forum is the signal-to-noise ratio, where actual discussion so often falls to the wayside in favour of "No, no, it's useless, no, don't take it, there's never any reason you'd take it, no."

 

I appreciate that in the context of ultra-competitive Russian "meta", there's no way you can make X, Y, and Z work. I get that. It takes no effort or expertise at all to say "This isn't very good compared to X." Great. Wonderful. How about the situations and scenarios a unit like that can be used, and what it's actually good at? Because sadly for the "it's all useless" angle, every unit has a use and a function. You don't have to take Chaos Bikers just because they're "better" than Raptors. You don't have to take Plague Marines because they're "better" than Berserkers. We've heard a million times how you "must" take 3-4 specific units to win, but that's never been universally true.

 

Jeske's a very smart guy and an experienced player, but he plays in an extremely niche setting where a lot of the rules he takes as mandatory don't apply to other people. If there was ever one dude I'd love to see give a full and balanced outlook at the usefulness of every unit, it'd be him. What an awesome and interesting guide that'd be, too. I've even thought of asking him a few times about making a project of it - he'd cover the uses of every unit and I'd cover some of the various ways the unit can be shown in the lore, and so on. Just for kicks. So I respect his insight immensely, but I also recognise the niche limitations of it in its current form.

 

"No, never use it" - especially in terms of 80% of a Codex - isn't great advice for the majority of gamers. It shouldn't be lauded.

[Tenebris]

Well you know, the very moment I have read in the new rules that all units score and that Troops and Dedicated Transports for troops have the Objective Secured I have ordered two Chaos Rhinos, a Chaos Land Raider and I am seriously considering a third Chaos Rhino. 

 

They are a bit more resilient due to the new table, the Plasma CSM are even better with the new vehicle damage table due to the AP2 getting a small bonus and with the added scoring benefit I will autoinclude two such squads in my every army list. Seeing that the Daemonic Heralds can act as summoners relieving some points from my list I have decided to expand the army shifting to things like Maulerfiends, Frogefiends and Soul Grinders to have as many AV 12-13 units on the board.

 

It is not that the vehicles are better, they are still the same, but considering that the MC are a bit easier to tackle with and considering that with the new Tactical Objectives an army must be now balanced, swift to reposition and well supported I think mechanized is the way to go.

 

So for me the humble Chaos Rhino is the norm for most of my infantry until we get some other viable and cheap transportation. I am even considering investing in a Land Raider and this is unprecedented for I always considered its cost too steep for what it brings to the table, but in the 7th this means that some pretty serious and dedicated anti-tank weaponry is needed to stop the advance of my Terminators.

 

And you know... the new objective want us to go across the board and smash things close and personal, either with Rapid Fire butchery or melee thus we must be there when the objectives shift. We also have to take in consideration that to delete units as Chaos we must be quite up close and personal, especially the Warlord/Witch Hunter objectives demand that. 

 

 

The actual question is why not include Chaos Rhinos?

 

 

 

PS: Do you really want to be caught out in the open with the sheer dakka that armies like the orks and the imperial guard can now bring to the table? The turn that the adversary is shooting your metal boxes to kingdom and come is one turn more that your CSM do not suffer morale checks and are not blasted to bits by enemy dakka. 

[minigun762]

Dozer blades are almost mandatory, almost.

After that, combi weapon to support a CSM or PM squad with two special weapon and a combi is a lot of firepower for a troop choice.

[Forté]

Ok, I'm liking this thread. Plenty of people putting their point across. And clone having a bad day ;)

 

I have had advice from Jeske on a list before (and to be honest I was dreading his view) but I had stated it was not for competitive game play and I was not prepared for the response. It was honest and informed too. More about how to use the units I was looking at rather than why not to use them. So just bare in mind you get what you ask for.

 

Now, back to Rhinos. I've not really used them but after reading some of the views here I'm actually tempted.

[Slave to Darkness]

im sure jeske means well, but hearing 'x unit is :cuss dont take it' is really harshing my mellow dude. makes me wonder why the hell im even bothering with a chaos army any more. if i ever go to a WAAC tourny environment ill make sure i get advice off him regarding my army selecton, but atm thats not gonna happen,.  and i always use rhinos with dirge casters, and run my squads behind them, 40 pts for moving cover aint too shabby, and if they get near a unit thats gonna be charged then thats even better for me

[Deadman Wade]

 

 

I appreciate that in the context of ultra-competitive Russian "meta", there's no way you can make X, Y, and Z work. I get that. It takes no effort or expertise at all to say "This isn't very good compared to X." Great. Wonderful. How about the situations and scenarios a unit like that can be used, and what it's actually good at? Because sadly for the "it's all useless" angle, every unit has a use and a function. You don't have to take Chaos Bikers just because they're "better" than Raptors. You don't have to take Plague Marines because they're "better" than Berserkers. We've heard a million times how you "must" take 3-4 specific units to win, but that's never been universally true.

It's only ultra-competitive when it comes to ETC-oriented community (and that's almost all forums), I don't have any problems finding opponents for casual games even at tournaments.