Chaos Rhinos in 7th

[Clone]

Ok, I'm liking this thread. Plenty of people putting their point across. And clone having a bad day

I was fine when I got out of bed but as soon as I stubbed my toe on that cupboard I went straight to ALWAYS ANGRY! ALL THE TIME!

im sure jeske means well, but hearing 'x unit is dont take it' is really harshing my mellow dude. makes me wonder why the hell im even bothering with a chaos army any more. if i ever go to a WAAC tourny environment ill make sure i get advice off him regarding my army selecton, but atm thats not gonna happen,. and i always use rhinos with dirge casters, and run my squads behind them, 40 pts for moving cover aint too shabby, and if they get near a unit thats gonna be charged then thats even better for me

This. I'm not hating on jeske personally, it just frustrates me and I'm tired of hearing how CSM is mostly crap. I love Chaos, I've won my fair share of battles, I have more fun playing Chaos than I do Tau. I'd rather just see balanced reviews of units than "don't use unit x, y and z because they're useless so we all may as well play C:SM". We're chaos, we're in the Long War together and all we have is each other.

This thread has given me some new ideas about how to use my Rhinos, the blasterbox seems most interesting and I may have to buy some Rhinos now.

[Sn4k30r]

Nah lets stay on the rhinos, the fact is to take rhino we speak about Troop CSM, or Chosens with Supplement, or some Mark deity troops,   

 

So for me, you can just have have for 140 points,        5x CSM troop with 2x melta , and a rhino with a combi-whatever, that is just fine, for tougher troops i would go with PMs and rhino, and for more Damage out put i would go with Chosen many special-guns, but costly,     

 

additions if you stay back with rhinos : havoc launcher, or combi-plasma if you like,      if you rush mid, field or on the enemy go dozer blades so you dont have problem with DT with or without combi for cheaper rhino,    

 

static rhinos are fine with slaanesh blastmasters, inside, Long range, and havoc launcher, as mid field rhinos are tough with PMs, even if rhino opens they need a lot of shooting to go down , and until then your "special weapons" are protected with a rhino, T5 and fnp,

 

Personally if i had points i would add combi-weapons in every rhino so after it disembarks can work and pick targets and work alone,

[Forté]

Good post there Sn4k30r

[Dallas Drake]

The whole competitive scene is, in my opinion, nonsense. As much as anyone (GW included) might try, 40K isn't balanced. It isn't Dawn of War on the PC and it certainly isn't chess. Play, win, lose, have fun. That's it. Pick a unit because you like how it looks, plays, is to paint, or because of a book, etc. Math-hammering out the odds is fun if you like that (I actually do!) but don't select your army that you're going to put hours (read years) of work and money into just because of 'competitiveness'. How many people (especially Chaos players) are drawn to units because of the fluff or superb stories associated with them?

 

Anyway... Rhinos.

 

They're cheap, they score and they provide mobile cover, in that respect they're great for a CSM unit with plasma (less useful the more you go down the melee route). But, for me the only problem I have with Rhinos is mainly when my opponent has the first turn; do I risk deploying them (yes, in cover etc, etc.) and take the chance all 3 hull points get stripped in my deployment zone, or do I reserve them & hope I get them early-ish? That's the reason why I lean towards adding in a few extra bodies instead.

 

Also, you've got to be careful that you don't get surrounded (i.e. all the access points blocked by enemy models) when/if the transport goes, that 10 man squad is reduced to about 4 men in seconds. This is a tricky tactic but Tyranids do it quite easily with Gaunts and TL-Devourers.

 

Dallas

[Sn4k30r]

hm... lets see, Dallas i can give you a tip, the power to this is how many rhinos you can get, and when i say rhinos i mean some Copy-paste troop-rhinos cause if you dont , for example you have a rhino with a 5xCSM and a rhino with 10x berzerkers "berserkers rhino IS the target" , so give the enemy tons of metal rhinos with same threats so he cant choose the "main" target" for 700points you can get 5x rhinos with 10xmeltas 5xcombi-flamers? or your choice,   

 

sometimes is better have more targets than 2 beefy on the board, rhinos are cheap get the advantage of it, add some low-cost upgrades, stay on CSM troops or lower 1-2 troops to get tougher ones, thats my recipe for rhino based armies,     That also needs more vehicles from other slots heavy-fast etc...

 

One bad thing is usually CSM players use Oblits as heavy, so you lose your AVs from heavy slot there and what is left? only rhinos in your list then the enemy focus them with all s6+ and all high ap1-2, and you get rekt :D        this kind of play i advice you to use AV in all of your army, to work, Predators, are fine maybe a raider too for bigger threat so he can take more damage so rhinos still in the game,

 

Instead of Oblits have you thought of Havocs? in Rhinos? extra AV and bodies, give them 2x guns, so you can have plenty of rhinos for screens, transport, close ways, extra firepower (heheh)    I am trying to open your minds to get away from the : OMG i must play only cultits and oblits all others arent playable,!        

 

Do as i say and you will see a different list of yours...

[Dallas Drake]

That's the problem Sn4k30r, I use Oblits. However, I think I'm going to take a look at min CSM squads again. I play against combat squaded SMs a lot and I think they're so good in 7th so 5 man squads with plasma, combo-plasma might be cheap and effective.

[Chaeron]

 

 

 

Not a dedicted transport for cultists , so I would say that I don't see them being run that much. csm nor pm got much better in 7th , and all the other units that had to run rhinos to work[plasma chosen without infiltrate,zerkers etc] were sub par to begin with. 3-4 rhinos , even naked cost too much for us.

Seriously? It seems that you hate every unit csm codex. Every topic where someone is asking for advice about units you always seem to turn around and say it's useless. Do you have anything positive to say about our codex?

 

 

Rarely, but that's the fault of the Codex, rather than jeske - who will give a truthful assessment of meta and codex equivalency.

 

 

Of his meta, and his perceptions of Codex equivalence. But that's not what most people ask, and it's not particularly detailed or useful for a lot of folks. Jeske has a lot of respect around here because he explains how to win in an ultra-competitive setting. But the overwhelming majority of the hobby's population doesn't play in ultra-competitive settings, so his information is critically less informative. I know perhaps 40 or 50 players. None of them would ever play the bleeding edge lists you find in a tournament. That doesn't mean they don't care about winning - it just means they wouldn't take cookie cutter internet lists in an environment where no one else is. And that's the problem with Jeske's attitude, and what people are starting to grow weary of: it's meaningless outside of situations where you're pitched against the same level of ultra-competitiveness and cookie cutter "best" lists. It's wisdom and logic founded entirely on playing in that exact setting.

 

One of the reasons I like Imperator Guides so much is that it reviews units in a realistic and balanced way - not just railing at what they aren't compared to Unit X in Codex Y, but actually listing ways they're useful and can be used in-game. Like an actual guide. With actual information. With a balanced look.

 

The most boring problem in the Chaos Forum is the signal-to-noise ratio, where actual discussion so often falls to the wayside in favour of "No, no, it's useless, no, don't take it, there's never any reason you'd take it, no."

 

I appreciate that in the context of ultra-competitive Russian "meta", there's no way you can make X, Y, and Z work. I get that. It takes no effort or expertise at all to say "This isn't very good compared to X." Great. Wonderful. How about the situations and scenarios a unit like that can be used, and what it's actually good at? Because sadly for the "it's all useless" angle, every unit has a use and a function. You don't have to take Chaos Bikers just because they're "better" than Raptors. You don't have to take Plague Marines because they're "better" than Berserkers. We've heard a million times how you "must" take 3-4 specific units to win, but that's never been universally true.

 

Jeske's a very smart guy and an experienced player, but he plays in an extremely niche setting where a lot of the rules he takes as mandatory don't apply to other people. If there was ever one dude I'd love to see give a full and balanced outlook at the usefulness of every unit, it'd be him. What an awesome and interesting guide that'd be, too. I've even thought of asking him a few times about making a project of it - he'd cover the uses of every unit and I'd cover some of the various ways the unit can be shown in the lore, and so on. Just for kicks. So I respect his insight immensely, but I also recognise the niche limitations of it in its current form.

 

"No, never use it" - especially in terms of 80% of a Codex - isn't great advice for the majority of gamers. It shouldn't be lauded.

 

 

I can't say I personally like it, or wholeheartedly approve - but it was a more a passing comment that he's blunt, but generally pretty accurate! Certainly agree that his perspective is ultra-competitive, and that unless you're playing that, it's not to be taken as lore.

 

As mentioned, by virtue of Rhinos remaining scoring (and if taken for Troop choices, count as that and thus gain objective secured as per p120), it gives them a far bigger role than before. They're still not wholly durable, and therefore again, investing heavily in them is probably unwise. For a few extra points, making them into a mobile gun platform could have some merit.

 

Bring back the Rhino rush! If I didn't believe in them, I'd have to bin this lot:

 

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/TheNewAgeOutlaw/GW/IMG-20140123-00751_zps042d2cac.jpg

 

And after all that effort, I think not!

[Deadman Wade]

hm... lets see, Dallas i can give you a tip, the power to this is how many rhinos you can get, and when i say rhinos i mean some Copy-paste troop-rhinos cause if you dont , for example you have a rhino with a 5xCSM and a rhino with 10x berzerkers "berserkers rhino IS the target" , so give the enemy tons of metal rhinos with same threats so he cant choose the "main" target" for 700points you can get 5x rhinos with 10xmeltas 5xcombi-flamers? or your choice,

sometimes is better have more targets than 2 beefy on the board, rhinos are cheap get the advantage of it, add some low-cost upgrades, stay on CSM troops or lower 1-2 troops to get tougher ones, thats my recipe for rhino based armies, That also needs more vehicles from other slots heavy-fast etc...

One bad thing is usually CSM players use Oblits as heavy, so you lose your AVs from heavy slot there and what is left? only rhinos in your list then the enemy focus them with all s6+ and all high ap1-2, and you get rekt this kind of play i advice you to use AV in all of your army, to work, Predators, are fine maybe a raider too for bigger threat so he can take more damage so rhinos still in the game,

Instead of Oblits have you thought of Havocs? in Rhinos? extra AV and bodies, give them 2x guns, so you can have plenty of rhinos for screens, transport, close ways, extra firepower (heheh) I am trying to open your minds to get away from the : OMG i must play only cultits and oblits all others arent playable,!

Do as i say and you will see a different list of yours...

I have two predators and havocs as AV, and it can be tricky not to block their LoS with your own rhinos, especially if some of them get immobilised or wrecked. Havocs usually live long enough to do some damage, as it can be tricky to target them (cover, multiple models, 3+ save e.t.c.) and ignore fast moving squads, but predators are targeted by every high Str weapon, as they still can be taken out by lucky lascannon shot.

[Sn4k30r]

You know hide and seek havoc squad? rhino in front of them, moves 6'' you shoot with your squad and then shooting phase flat out the rhino back 6'' i can shoot you you cant :D

[brother_contagion]

You know hide and seek havoc squad? rhino in front of them, moves 6'' you shoot with your squad and then shooting phase flat out the rhino back 6'' i can shoot you you cant

I must try this!

[A D-B]

 

 

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/TheNewAgeOutlaw/GW/IMG-20140123-00751_zps042d2cac.jpg

 

 

 

 

Oh my Jesus megaballs heck bloody chunder. They look freaking grand.

[Dragonlover]

You know hide and seek havoc squad? rhino in front of them, moves 6'' you shoot with your squad and then shooting phase flat out the rhino back 6'' i can shoot you you cant

You know, I continually forget that this is possible. I keep just moving 12 in the movement phase and calling it a day.

Dragonlover

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/TheNewAgeOutlaw/GW/IMG-20140123-00751_zps042d2cac.jpg

 

 

 

 

Oh my Jesus megaballs heck bloody chunder. They look freaking grand.

 

calm down lad... just breathe slowly

[Nehekhare]

 

[X's] attitude, and what people are starting to grow weary of: it's meaningless outside of situations where you're pitched against the same level of ultra-competitiveness and cookie cutter "best" lists. It's wisdom and logic founded entirely on playing in that exact setting.

 

I think you are confusing the source of an information with its context.

 

A certain advice that is taken from experience does not become meaningless just because you don't care as much about the rules of the game.

 

A Marine *propably* dies to 6 bolter hits. That is true whether you play a narrative (i.e. friendly competitive, because as per definition there is no non-competitive wargaming) campaign or "ultra-competitive" tournament game.

 

As much as people hate on this kind of gaming, it is the only environment where the rules are tried and tested - because everywhere else, you can just agree on a compromise, whereas a tournament can only work based on fair and clear (note: this does not mean or necessitate "balanced") rules that are the same for every participiant.

 

So, where else does your knowledge about playing the game by the rules come from? Casual gaming with your circle of friends? imagine we would base scientific experiments on groups as small, as individual and as sealed off as this.

 

On the other hand, good rules make EVERY game better, narrative or tournament.

 

Don't hate on playing the game *non-narratively*. Without the rules, there is no game and without a game, there is no narrative.

[A D-B]

 

 

[X's] attitude, and what people are starting to grow weary of: it's meaningless outside of situations where you're pitched against the same level of ultra-competitiveness and cookie cutter "best" lists. It's wisdom and logic founded entirely on playing in that exact setting.

 

I think you are confusing the source of an information with its context.

 

A certain advice that is taken from experience does not become meaningless just because you don't care as much about the rules of the game.

 

A Marine *propably* dies to 6 bolter hits. That is true whether you play a narrative (i.e. friendly competitive, because as per definition there is no non-competitive wargaming) campaign or "ultra-competitive" tournament game.

 

As much as people hate on this kind of gaming, it is the only environment where the rules are tried and tested - because everywhere else, you can just agree on a compromise, whereas a tournament can only work based on fair and clear (note: this does not mean or necessitate "balanced") rules that are the same for every participiant.

 

So, where else does your knowledge about playing the game by the rules come from? Casual gaming with your circle of friends? imagine we would base scientific experiments on groups as small, as individual and as sealed off as this.

 

On the other hand, good rules make EVERY game better, narrative or tournament.

 

Don't hate on playing the game *non-narratively*. Without the rules, there is no game and without a game, there is no narrative.

 

 

I don't want to be dragged into a strawman about "hating" anything. It's got nothing to do with hating anything, let alone people playing non-narratively. That's... quite a leap to suggest. It's largely an attitude thing, and I'm hardly the only person to comment on it as a problem. Do you see, say, Zhukov getting the same reception?

 

If you find "This is useless, never take this" to be useful or appropriate, more power to you, dude. That doesn't make it informative, balanced, or appropriate for anything but bleeding edge tournament settings. Are you honestly arguing against the fact that I said it'd be nice to have more useful and informative guides that explain what units are good for, rather than the usual "Everything sucks, only take Plague Marines" nonsense? Because that's pretty much what 90% of that post was.

[Sception]

Like Jeske, I don't personally expect a considerable change in the use of chaos rhinos in my area (I could be wrong, though, as I was one of those concerned about the new psychic phase being overpowered, and it's starting to look like it is, if anything, the opposite).

 

Anyway, our rhinos are still attached to some generally lackluster units, and I don't see the improvements to rhinos being enough to tip the scales for those who weren't using those units already. As for those like myself who used those units anyway, well transports were still necessary in 6th, so I was already using them. Rhinos didn't get so much more durable that I'd feel comfortable weighing them down with extra upgrades, nor are they so much better that I'd be inclined to split two ten man units into 3 five man squads to fit one more in my army.

 

The only real difference I see is that if a rhino miraculously survives delivering it's cargo, I'm now more likely to run it at another objective, rather than have it hover around the squad to provide cover or block los.

 

 

As for attitude, I look back at jeske's post in this thread, and have to ask "what attitude"? The antagonistic tone arrived in this particular thread with clone.

[Nehekhare]

 

 

I don't want to be dragged into a strawman about "hating" anything.

 

call it differently then. the point is: knowledge gained from experience is not an attitude thing. I'm not argueing ad personam here, in case it seemed so.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

I don't want to be dragged into a strawman about "hating" anything.

 

call it differently then. the point is: knowledge gained from experience is not an attitude thing. I'm not argueing ad personam here, in case it seemed so.

 

 

Knowledge gained from experience in a specific and limited niche setting, against specific opponents. Most people don't play in that setting. Not even close to it. It's less informative and useful for a lot of people. Most people don't play in settings where you have to take only Best Units X, Y, and Z to win, against people that only take Best Units A, B, and C every single time.

 

I'm not saying he's wrong. I specifically said the opposite. In his setting, his insight is very useful. But you can't honestly be putting people's complaints about his attitude down to hating or misunderstanding.

[Sception]

We can only offer commentary from our own perspective. If you ask for strategic or tactical advice entirely divorced from any player's actual in-game experience, then you're asking for a silent thread. Or pure math hammer. And the latter isn't exactly kind to most units in our book, either.

[A D-B]

We can only offer commentary from our own perspective. If you ask for strategic or tactical advice entirely divorced from any player's actual in-game experience, then you're asking for a silent thread. Or pure math hammer.

 

Exactly. The key is in acknowledging that, and not saying "No, it's definitely this at all times, everything else is wrong." Y'know, like plenty of people have complained about in the last few years.

 

EDIT: Part of the problem is that "No, it's definitely this at all times" and never backing down is that it's just not true for most players. It's not good advice, and useless to them. What can a unit do? How can it succeed? No idea - too often the answer is "No, never use it, because in ultra-competitive settings it's no good compared to X." It's barely even advice, and it's easy to see why that frustrates people.

 

EDIT II: THE REVENGE:  And I agree, Jeske didn't show any attitude earlier beyond usual standard negativity about non-cookie-cutter choices (perfectly fair, too).

 

EDIT III: SON OF EDIT: I don't even know why I sound mad. I like the guy.

 

But let's steer this back on topic before it gets mutilated out of hand.

[Sheesh Mode]

I have been playing an assault focused black legion army that uses a Rhino and Landraider. I have found that our rhinos are fantastic fire-bases for our CSM in that they can easily accomplish what Loyalists have wanted to do for so long: A cheap transport that has a strong fire-output. I run a squad of plasma-chosen next to my landraider every game I play and though the plas-chosen are not always useful due to lack of priority targets or a wave of heavy armor, they are still effective. Hiding in a metal box and being able to shoot out 2/4 S7 ap2 shots at 12/24" + 1/2 S4 AP5 TL shot(s) at 12/24" + an S5 AP4 TL small blast is a great anti-infantry and light-tank package for its points. 

 

Furthermore, the havoc launcher is very cheap for what it does and can find a place in any mechanized army, so long as they need it. 

 

I am well aware that the army I play isn't 'the best' having posted on 4chins for so long it's drilled into my mind. However, that does not stop me from enjoying my army and winning games. I play a tough force the requires a specific play-style: aggression and decisiveness, that has always been our way. Our codex does not carry the game for us but that does not mean we can't win tournaments with it. We have some of the best infantry in the game our spacemarines can out shoot, out run, out live, out cut, our loyalist brothers in any way they please so long as they are equipped properly. Ours is an army of application not generalized problem solving. 

 

I believe there are ways our army can continue to shine in spite of its under dog status beyond 3 heldrakes and mono nurgle. We simply need to remember which units are most suitable for what situations and plan accordingly.

[Clone]

Like Jeske, I don't personally expect a considerable change in the use of chaos rhinos in my area (I could be wrong, though, as I was one of those concerned about the new psychic phase being overpowered, and it's starting to look like it is, if anything, the opposite).

 

Anyway, our rhinos are still attached to some generally lackluster units, and I don't see the improvements to rhinos being enough to tip the scales for those who weren't using those units already. As for those like myself who used those units anyway, well transports were still necessary in 6th, so I was already using them. Rhinos didn't get so much more durable that I'd feel comfortable weighing them down with extra upgrades, nor are they so much better that I'd be inclined to split two ten man units into 3 five man squads to fit one more in my army.

 

The only real difference I see is that if a rhino miraculously survives delivering it's cargo, I'm now more likely to run it at another objective, rather than have it hover around the squad to provide cover or block los.

 

 

As for attitude, I look back at jeske's post in this thread, and have to ask "what attitude"? The antagonistic tone arrived in this particular thread with clone.

I did set the tone but I'm hardly the only one who feels that way. I vented on jeske and that was wrong, like I said before its nothing against him personally. The issue I have, and several others have also stated, is that simply saying "x, y and z are terrible, other codicies have better versions, don't use it" doesn not generally equate to useful advice for a lot of players. Taking one mans local meta and applying it to the rest of the world does not always match up.

 

I am sorry this came up here and lets not derail this thread any more than it already has.

 

Also, I have just won a couple of Rhinos on ebay ;)

[Chaeron]

 

 

 

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/TheNewAgeOutlaw/GW/IMG-20140123-00751_zps042d2cac.jpg

 

 

 

 

Oh my Jesus megaballs heck bloody chunder. They look freaking grand.

 

 

And with that comment, I can die happy!

[Sception]

I am sorry this came up here and lets not derail this thread any more than it already has.

It's fine for you and ADB to say "lets not derail the thread further", just please remember who was derailing this thread to begin with, and maybe next time, you know, don't do that.

[Clone]

 

I am sorry this came up here and lets not derail this thread any more than it already has.

It's fine for you and ADB to say "lets not derail the thread further", just please remember who was derailing this thread to begin with, and maybe next time, you know, don't do that.

Ok. Fair enough. Let's get back on topic.

 

I have 2 rhinos now and have just won another on eBay so am planning some rhino rush lists. I have some games coming up using the new tactical objectives so I'm hoping the extra mobility will come in useful. Thinking I'll upgrade with dozer blades and extra armour to keep them mobile.