Chaos Rhinos in 7th

[Sception]

I used to have four, back in the heady days of rhino rush. Since re-starting my chaos with 6e, I have 2, both of which are still waiting for their turn in the painting queue.

 

I've also got two hand me down rhino chassis, and I have yet to decide whether to fix them up as functional rhinos, or work them into predators and vindicators, which I have none of so far. Neither is likely coming soon, as I'm just not as interested in the chaos versions of marine vehicles as I am in the chaos exclusive daemon engines.

 

Like I said, I mostly run them naked, although I have on and off considered dozers or extra armor. It would be cool if our signature upgrade 'daemonic possession' was better for them, or for our vehicles in general - it might help motivate me to care harder about them, but risking pricey marine bodies on what is, at best, only a nominal upgrade over extra armor, is just a non starter for me.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

Yeah something as simple as having daemonic possession also give a 5++ save to align with daemons would be handy. Then I would consider it more.

As it is like most others I tend to run them naked with maybe a dirge caster to help my khorne on the charge.

[Nehekhare]

 

Knowledge gained from experience in a specific and limited niche setting, against specific opponents. Most people don't play in that setting.

 

Ah, come on, now you just repeated your initial statement. there is no niche - we all play by the same rules!

every player is specific, but the greater the experimental group, the more significant the information gained.

[the jeske]

 

But my point is that the csm codex is all we have. Why keep comparing it to other codicies that we don't use. So what if rhinos are expensive for us? If we shouldn't use them because a different codex gets them for less points, go play that codex instead or at least try to offer some sort of alternative.

 

Tbh, I don't see nay saying the entire codex as being useful advice.

 

I may not play competitively but my rhinos have performed great as objective grabbers. Just a 10 man csm squad with plasma or melta works great with objective secured. I tend to take my rhinos cheap with just a dozer for an upgrade.

 

Your missing the point . There is no rhino in csm lists . There are csm list and csm lists that use units in rhinos cost too much , compering to what they do . And they are not the type of a unit you can run as single . Eldar can run a single WK. it is a good single unit[multiple are kind of win more], to take rhinos you need to take 3-4 of them and even if the stuff inside is bare bones , it already decides half the list and the tactics for first 2-3 turns.And that is predicible ,and that works only for ++2 re-roll type builds.

 

The units you propose do not work great in objective secured . They cost just as much as SW GK , but for weaker stats with worse arment and special rules. If we put pms inside we have to take a nurgle lord[not saying it is a bad option , best lord there is , but some people don't play nurgle] , if we take csm they cost more then loyalist . And the rhinos aren't free. Worse we can't even run the old 6th builds which run dual culstists and dual 5 man csm with flamer , because half the main stay of those build got gutted hard.

 

 

We also lack ton of the stuff other armies can do with their rhinos. BB riding around in other army transports ? awesome[we don't have real BB] . cheap units that do super scoring +something[like lets say 3 psyker henchman in a psychic rhino or razorback]? well technicly we could do that , for a choir list , but we may as well run demons and get the same effects [+the so loved random table every turn]. LoS blocking to snipe stuff? well less important then in 6th or 4th , but it isn't much different from what other armies can do with their rhinos[and marines or inq doesn't run rhinos just to snipe].

 

 

 

 

Ah, come on, now you just repeated your initial statement. there is no niche - we all play by the same rules!

every player is specific, but the greater the experimental group, the more significant the information gained.

 

 

Ok so let say . We want to build a chaos army using rhinos , how do we do it. We can't run a sorc deathstar[wont have the points for it , if we take csm/pms and rhinos]. We could try to make the old mauler rush list work , but with the nerf to drakes and FMC it doesn't realy work anymore .

We could make a gold fish list that looks like this

 

Lord Claw+fist bike +inv

Sorc lvl 1 bike familiar

 

2x5 csm melta , combi melta rhino dozers[if someone plays on realy dense terrain tables all the time]

2x14 cultists

4xnurgle spawn

2 maulers

1x3 oblits mon

 

Technicly a version of the mauler rush sans the DP and drake , it technicly has the bodies to take objectives , is a rush [4+ fast moving targets] , it even has a support section. But it is not killy enough and will struggle against alfa strike lists.

[Ammonius]

I haven't played a game of 7th yet, but I plan on using them sort of like I did in 6th - equipped with a havoc launcher, using it to searchlight targets during night fight. Except this time around, I will have more Basilisks to fire upon spotlighted targets.

[the jeske]

But night fight is optional. Is the list unbound or do you run IG as ally ?

[Ammonius]

But night fight is optional. Is the list unbound or do you run IG as ally ?

Night fight: Cool, I hadn't processed that. My opponents are Tau and 12-tank minimum IG with the possibility of Orks and/ or GK, so if it's to my advantage I want to push for Night Fighting, if not, not.

 

List: it's IG main, with some CSM added, maybe. Honestly I'm thinking of units from the CSM codex as counter-drop pod units to attack whatever gets stuck in the bubble wrap around my artillery. Once I get some games, I will make adjustments.

 

Edit: Also the question was about Rhino use, so I suppose my other answer could be "I won't be using them" but then I wouldn't have a reason to post :)

[Emperors Immortals]

Sorry if I sounded blunt before Clone, Im just rushed in most of my replies.

 

I hadnt thought of the havok screen before, and im keen to try it. Not the most competitive I know, but still pretty cool sounding and very chaos-y.

 

Im about to start a 40k vassal league with a kharne tide list and am thinking of buying a rhino for each CSM squad and running it to just grab objectives, doubling my target saturation at low levels and enabling rapid deployment if needed (well, faster then foot speed anyway).

 

Any ideas how to make this more viable?

 

The basic list is; (500pts to start, 250pts each week after)

 

Kharne + 10 cultist blob

CSM (undecided on mark) list in rhino w/ dozer

 

at 500, would another CSM squad be more valuable then spawn unit? Cause id like to run Kharne, cultist and the spawn as one faction straight to the line and the CSM as tactic grabbers.

 

Ill post this list seperate later, but maybe I could get some advice for the rhinos in here first :D

[brother_contagion]

I just don't listen to the nay sayers and do what I want whether good or bad: that's true Chaos!

[DraneceusRex]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I just finished adding and painting up the combi meltas and havoks so I'm pretty amped to get them on the board. I had a rhino that way back when I added the FW EC doors, front, and spaced armour that's been collecting dust for years I finally finished painting too. Pretty amped to run them with 5 man NM squads. 

 

I'll need to play some games to decide on dozers though, but I do think I'll give them some thought.

[incinerator950]

I have been playing an assault focused black legion army that uses a Rhino and Landraider. I have found that our rhinos are fantastic fire-bases for our CSM in that they can easily accomplish what Loyalists have wanted to do for so long: A cheap transport that has a strong fire-output. I run a squad of plasma-chosen next to my landraider every game I play and though the plas-chosen are not always useful due to lack of priority targets or a wave of heavy armor, they are still effective. Hiding in a metal box and being able to shoot out 2/4 S7 ap2 shots at 12/24" + 1/2 S4 AP5 TL shot(s) at 12/24" + an S5 AP4 TL small blast is a great anti-infantry and light-tank package for its points.

 

Furthermore, the havoc launcher is very cheap for what it does and can find a place in any mechanized army, so long as they need it.

 

I am well aware that the army I play isn't 'the best' having posted on 4chins for so long it's drilled into my mind. However, that does not stop me from enjoying my army and winning games. I play a tough force the requires a specific play-style: aggression and decisiveness, that has always been our way. Our codex does not carry the game for us but that does not mean we can't win tournaments with it. We have some of the best infantry in the game our spacemarines can out shoot, out run, out live, out cut, our loyalist brothers in any way they please so long as they are equipped properly. Ours is an army of application not generalized problem solving.

 

I believe there are ways our army can continue to shine in spite of its under dog status beyond 3 heldrakes and mono nurgle. We simply need to remember which units are most suitable for what situations and plan accordingly.

If you ever pretend to want to get legitimate advice from 4chan, stop. Go to Warseer or heresy online.

[Clone]

 

 

But my point is that the csm codex is all we have. Why keep comparing it to other codicies that we don't use. So what if rhinos are expensive for us? If we shouldn't use them because a different codex gets them for less points, go play that codex instead or at least try to offer some sort of alternative.

 

Tbh, I don't see nay saying the entire codex as being useful advice.

 

I may not play competitively but my rhinos have performed great as objective grabbers. Just a 10 man csm squad with plasma or melta works great with objective secured. I tend to take my rhinos cheap with just a dozer for an upgrade.

 

Your missing the point . There is no rhino in csm lists . There are csm list and csm lists that use units in rhinos cost too much , compering to what they do . And they are not the type of a unit you can run as single . Eldar can run a single WK. it is a good single unit[multiple are kind of win more], to take rhinos you need to take 3-4 of them and even if the stuff inside is bare bones , it already decides half the list and the tactics for first 2-3 turns.And that is predicible ,and that works only for ++2 re-roll type builds.

 

The units you propose do not work great in objective secured . They cost just as much as SW GK , but for weaker stats with worse arment and special rules. If we put pms inside we have to take a nurgle lord[not saying it is a bad option , best lord there is , but some people don't play nurgle] , if we take csm they cost more then loyalist . And the rhinos aren't free. Worse we can't even run the old 6th builds which run dual culstists and dual 5 man csm with flamer , because half the main stay of those build got gutted hard.

 

 

We also lack ton of the stuff other armies can do with their rhinos. BB riding around in other army transports ? awesome[we don't have real BB] . cheap units that do super scoring +something[like lets say 3 psyker henchman in a psychic rhino or razorback]? well technicly we could do that , for a choir list , but we may as well run demons and get the same effects [+the so loved random table every turn]. LoS blocking to snipe stuff? well less important then in 6th or 4th , but it isn't much different from what other armies can do with their rhinos[and marines or inq doesn't run rhinos just to snipe].

 

 

 

Ah, come on, now you just repeated your initial statement. there is no niche - we all play by the same rules!

every player is specific, but the greater the experimental group, the more significant the information gained.

 

Ok so let say . We want to build a chaos army using rhinos , how do we do it. We can't run a sorc deathstar[wont have the points for it , if we take csm/pms and rhinos]. We could try to make the old mauler rush list work , but with the nerf to drakes and FMC it doesn't realy work anymore .

We could make a gold fish list that looks like this

 

Lord Claw+fist bike +inv

Sorc lvl 1 bike familiar

 

2x5 csm melta , combi melta rhino dozers[if someone plays on realy dense terrain tables all the time]

2x14 cultists

4xnurgle spawn

2 maulers

1x3 oblits mon

 

Technicly a version of the mauler rush sans the DP and drake , it technicly has the bodies to take objectives , is a rush [4+ fast moving targets] , it even has a support section. But it is not killy enough and will struggle against alfa strike lists.

Yet if you want your troops to not footslog I don't see any alternative to the rhino. Sure, my csm in rhino will cost more overall than sm but I've never found it to be much of a problem in my local meta. Surely it's better to have the rhino wrecked than my csm being riddled with plasma. At least that way I can get the rhino at most 18" across the board at the end of turn 1. Once again I just don't think that other codicies getting cheaper units should be a reason to not use a unit from our dex. At my level a few points here and there don't generally affect the game in a big way.

[Nehekhare]

 

 legitimate advice from 4chan

 

tehee ;D

[the jeske]

 

Yet if you want your troops to not footslog I don't see any alternative to the rhino. Sure, my csm in rhino will cost more overall than sm but I've never found it to be much of a problem in my local meta. Surely it's better to have the rhino wrecked than my csm being riddled with plasma. At least that way I can get the rhino at most 18" across the board at the end of turn 1. Once again I just don't think that other codicies getting cheaper units should be a reason to not use a unit from our dex. At my level a few points here and there don't generally affect the game in a big way.

Why would you want to not footslogg your troops. What you would say propose would be a good tactic , if the game looked like this. Chaos gets [always] turn 1 , drives up 12-18"[getting objectives , blockingf ire/charge lines etc] and on our opponents turn they blow up our rhinos , followed by our turn 2 where we [score objectives] unleash the dakka.

But the game look more like this . We get turn 1 less then 50% of time[our builds generaly don't run Vect or oCortez]. If we swarm objectives both our rhinos and the dudes inside are removed. If we don't start we risk being alfa striked or just getting our rhinos ranged , which leaves us with the same footslogging units we would have had if we didn't take the rhinos.

 

Other army cheaper units are a problem , because if they have more units with utility then us , then they will always have the upper hand.

5pms/10 csm with dual plasma in a rhino vs serpent +5 DA =what has better utility ?

3 henchman in a razorback vs a 5 man csm in rhino =what has better utility ?

 

There are realy very few units in the game that just walk and shot , that are worth it. Everything good is either buffed up to deathstar status , have good support rules[ drop pods, scouting , being psyker , having uptions for orders/blobing up, extra weapon slots in single units] . In 6th pms or csm had their merits in the fact that no matter what people needed scoring units[PM weren't ideal for it and csm made no sense as troops , but one could at least explain why someone runs them] ,now everything score . Instead of runing 4 units of csm in rhinos . It is better to take the same points buy 3 cheapo cultist units and a big[not saying they are the saving grace of csm army books] unit of terminators . More killy more resilient, easier to death star up with invisiblity , with options to start up field [using huron/ahriman]. Or take two units of cultists and run 2 units of chosen[not BL] with 3 specials each with Cypher formation.

 

 

 

Kharne + 10 cultist blob

CSM (undecided on mark) list in rhino w/ dozer

 

 

Kind of a slow for a 500pts army. A lot of 500pts builds are going to be runing rings around you.

 

the csm markless , no dozer , plasma combi plasma x2 [on asp champ and the rhino]. fire power >utility in smaller point games.

 

good thing would also be to rethink Khârn . He is too slow [and a 10man blob doesn't give enough protection],in 500pts the most powerful thing [be it WFB or w40k] is force multiplication. Play like undead. replace him with a CS sorc , make him a demon and run him with demonology. Aside for GK and demon  builds , you should be able to summon stuff every other turn. Unless the dice aren't too much against you.

[incinerator950]

 

 

legitimate advice from 4chan

tehee ;D

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac116/incinerator950/Mobile%20Uploads/tmp_24636-10269546_10152109746531538_736010472103318365_a764716240_zps64ba1a13.jpg

[Emperors Immortals]

 

 

Kharne + 10 cultist blob

CSM (undecided on mark) list in rhino w/ dozer

 

Kind of a slow for a 500pts army. A lot of 500pts builds are going to be runing rings around you.

 

the csm markless , no dozer , plasma combi plasma x2 [on asp champ and the rhino]. fire power >utility in smaller point games.

 

good thing would also be to rethink Khârn . He is too slow [and a 10man blob doesn't give enough protection],in 500pts the most powerful thing [be it WFB or w40k] is force multiplication. Play like undead. replace him with a CS sorc , make him a demon and run him with demonology. Aside for GK and demon builds , you should be able to summon stuff every other turn. Unless the dice aren't too much against you.

Cool, so ive thought it over and your right, at 500pts its just not good enough.

 

How about

 

CS sorc. w/ "Prophet of the voices" - 115pts

+ additional ML

 

5man CSM w/ flamer - 139pts

+Champ w/ Combi plasma

+Rhino w/ Combi plasma

 

5man CSM w/ flamer - 139pts

+Champ w/ Combi plasma

+Rhino w/ Combi plasma

 

Chaos relic predator - 110pts.

w/ plasma destroyer

 

 

Basic idea will be to keep the Sorc summoning daemonic reinforcments with the rhinos providing a screen so I can maximise the Predator, pretty straight forward.

 

 

I'll trim it to 500 pts but im wondering a couple of things;

 

Which codex to use; CS (for the Hornstar lord), BL (for chosen troops) or plain CSM (for burning brand). Though I realise it doesnt really matter any more and I can fill my ranks with all three, id like those "superscorers" I hear about.

 

Should I switch the PoTV on the Sorc for just a spell familiar? It then gives re-rolls on failed daemonic spells and maybe pick up the Burning Brand, but ill miss out on Daemonic, fearless and fleet USR and the rolls on the Possesed chart BUt get those few extra points for moar dakka.

 

Since we add 250pts each week, what should I be looking at? Im thinking biker MoN unit 1st week, another 2 CSM units 2nd week, maybe a maxed Lord 3rd etc.

 

 

ANY feedback and input is very welcome, my first game is in a couple of days.

 

Ill post all results and this will be an ongoing thing too.

 

Thanks guys ;)

[Sception]

Though I realise it doesnt really matter any more and I can fill my ranks with all three, id like those "superscorers" I hear about.

Actually, I'm not sure that's accurate. Unless there's some wording in the new rulebook I'm unaware of (entirely possible, I'm not purchasing it until I can get just the rules for a reasonable price), the supplement rules only apply on the detachment level. "crimson slaughter detachments" or "black legion detachments". Unbound armies have no detachments, and as such have no crimson slaughter or black legion detachments, which means CSM unbound armies do not have access to the supplement rules at all. Now, your local community may make exceptions, but unless they do, our supplement rules are for battleforged armies only. Note that you can still mix them in the same battleforged list, but they'll each need their own combined arms detachment, so to take stuff from all three, you'll need min 3 HQ and 6 troops.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, kinda matters if you're going battle forged. If you go unbound you have more freedom.

 

By "superscorers" I assume you mean troops with 'objective secured'? Well, you need to be battle forged for them.

 

To be battle forged or unbound you need a Primary Detachment which contains your warlord. Battle forged then follows rules on page 118-122 for detachments (CAD or Allies). Unbound just add in whatever they want.

 

For example. If you wanted a mix in a battle forged army you would need to do something like this.

 

CS or BL HQ & 2 Troop (Primary CAD)

Allied C:CD 1 HQ & 1 Troop. (Allies)

 

Scarily, Lords of War are optional CAD choices, so theoretically you could bring more than one LoW...

 

Unbound can use whatever they want. You still have a Primary Detachment (your warlord's 'faction') but the BRB clearly says "use whatever units from your collection you want". There are no detachment restrictions but also no command benefits (ideal mission commander or objective secured).

 

Dallas

 

As for your army, plan 1500 points then break it down into 500 or 250 point blocks. I personally use Cultists as my troop choices at 500-1000 points but you might want to think about where you want your army list to 'go' before buying models.

[Dam13n]

emperors immortals - I'd have a meltagun in there somewhere, the ability to ID toughness 4 and take on AV13+ is rather useful.  Other than that, the list looks quite versatile.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

emperors immortals - I'd have a meltagun in there somewhere, the ability to ID toughness 4 and take on AV13+ is rather useful.  Other than that, the list looks quite versatile.

 

Yep I agree just have a few Melta's.  Just help out if the oppent for a Land Raider or Dam13n said armour 13+.  I usely like to get the Rhino near by to fire Melta out of the hatch, rhinos helping keeping my own models safe if the Land Raider get blown up & also mean they've got to get though the Rhino to attack the Chaos Marines squads on there turn.

 

Just to ask - Anyone who use Dire Cast, how do you model/convert them?  It somthing I've not seen that often model wise.

 

IP

[Dam13n]

I mount the dirge caster on the front of my vehicles (usually just there for decoration).
 
see here.

[Dammeron]

 

Though I realise it doesnt really matter any more and I can fill my ranks with all three, id like those "superscorers" I hear about.

Actually, I'm not sure that's accurate. Unless there's some wording in the new rulebook I'm unaware of (entirely possible, I'm not purchasing it until I can get just the rules for a reasonable price), the supplement rules only apply on the detachment level. "crimson slaughter detachments" or "black legion detachments". Unbound armies have no detachments, and as such have no crimson slaughter or black legion detachments, which means CSM unbound armies do not have access to the supplement rules at all. Now, your local community may make exceptions, but unless they do, our supplement rules are for battleforged armies only. Note that you can still mix them in the same battleforged list, but they'll each need their own combined arms detachment, so to take stuff from all three, you'll need min 3 HQ and 6 troops.

 

 

On page 117 of the new rulebook it points out that, in the case of Unbound armies, all the models in your army that share the same "faction" as your warlord count as the primary detachment whereas everything else is a tertiary detachment, so it's entirely possible to have an Unbound army that consists of a Black Legion "primary detachment" (though it may number very few models) and a Crimson Slaughter or vanilla CSM codex tertiary detachment.

[Chaeron]

I mount the dirge caster on the front of my vehicles (usually just there for decoration).

 

see here.

 

Yeah, I'd just use that bit, which otherwise never gets used!

[Sception]

On page 117 of the new rulebook it points out that, in the case of Unbound armies, all the models in your army that share the same "faction" as your warlord count as the primary detachment whereas everything else is a tertiary detachment, so it's entirely possible to have an Unbound army that consists of a Black Legion "primary detachment" (though it may number very few models) and a Crimson Slaughter or vanilla CSM codex tertiary detachment.

Useful information, and that allows Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion unbound armies, though it still doesn't allow mixing them in the same unbound army. Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter aren't "factions", the only faction is "Chaos Space Marines", and you can, optionally, declare a CSM detachment to either be a 'Black Legion' detachment or a 'Crimson Slaughter' detachment.

 

So under that wording, you take an unbound army, make a CSM HQ your warlord, and then all CSM units (perhaps not including formations?) become one detachment. You can then make that detachment either Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter. Any other CSM units you include will then be part of that same detachment, and subject to the same choice of supplement. If the supplement forces were different factions, then it would work, but as I understand it thus far they aren't, so it doesn't, for the same reason that you can't take an allied detachment of Crimson Slaughter in a Black Legion army in 7th ed.

[Dallas Drake]

 

On page 117 of the new rulebook it points out that, in the case of Unbound armies, all the models in your army that share the same "faction" as your warlord count as the primary detachment whereas everything else is a tertiary detachment, so it's entirely possible to have an Unbound army that consists of a Black Legion "primary detachment" (though it may number very few models) and a Crimson Slaughter or vanilla CSM codex tertiary detachment.

Useful information, and that allows Crimson Slaughter or Black Legion unbound armies, though it still doesn't allow mixing them in the same unbound army. Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter aren't "factions", the only faction is "Chaos Space Marines", and you can, optionally, declare a CSM detachment to either be a 'Black Legion' detachment or a 'Crimson Slaughter' detachment.

 

So under that wording, you take an unbound army, make a CSM HQ your warlord, and then all CSM units (perhaps not including formations?) become one detachment. You can then make that detachment either Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter. Any other CSM units you include will then be part of that same detachment, and subject to the same choice of supplement. If the supplement forces were different factions, then it would work, but as I understand it thus far they aren't, so it doesn't, for the same reason that you can't take an allied detachment of Crimson Slaughter in a Black Legion army in 7th ed.

Hmm, I see what Mal is saying... And he's right about the Unbound (look at the example about Jon on page 117).

 

Dallas

 

Edit: On another similar note why can you mix Space Marine chapters within a Faction like this but not BL/CS?