Chaos Rhinos in 7th

[Sception]

I was under the impression (again I could be wrong, do not own the rulebook) that allied detachments cannot come from the same faction as your primary, warlord's detachment. That if you want to include additional detachments of your primary faction, they have to be additional combined arms detachments, not allied detachments.

[hornywingythingy]

^ because they faqed marines to allow it, but nothing else. Allied detachments can't be from the same faction as the main detachment, except marines.... Borked I know.

[Dallas Drake]

You're right Mal, just read it on the allies FOC restrictions.

 

^ because they faqed marines to allow it, but nothing else. Allied detachments can't be from the same faction as the main detachment, except marines.... Borked I know.

You are joking!? How did I miss that. Well, that wraps up that.

 

England beat by Uruguay last night & now this! Week of hell!

[hornywingythingy]

You're right Mal, just read it on the allies FOC restrictions.

 

 

^ because they faqed marines to allow it, but nothing else. Allied detachments can't be from the same faction as the main detachment, except marines.... Borked I know.

You are joking!? How did I miss that. Well, that wraps up that.

 

England beat by Uruguay last night & now this! Week of hell!

[Emperors Immortals]

@Dami3n, @DallasDrake and @InsanePsychopath thanks for the tips, im switching the plasma combis over to melta and adding the melta special weapon to the squad.

 

@InsanePsychopath it was you old bat reps that inspird me quite a while ago to start up a solid Rhino based army, I still read through them every so often!

 

@malisteen @Dammeron @ DallasDrake - very interesting concept, can we get a thread on it in the CSM forum? I think it would be very useful indeed!  @hornywingythingy - well that settles that then I suppose lol 

 

Not to derail the thread or anything, but has anyone else noticed this Cup being quite a bit different? MAny upsets so far, and Cahil's goal of the century! Australia actually did a thing at the cup!!!!

[Slayer le Boucher]

By following the combined arms rules, you can still use various Sub factions ito one army.

 

For exemple Primary with Black Legion and secondary Detachement made out of CS, you can even take an allied detachement afterward.

 

The only downside of this is that for each detachement you need to fill the obligatory slots, 1Hq 2 Troops.

 

I think that we will see more and more 10 man cultists squads just to fill this in.

 

Might be interessting; Primary Black Legion, witn one CHosen and One CSM squads has Troops, and Secondary CS, with One Cultists and one Possesed squads as troops, then Deamons for allies, or simply summon them with the CS deamon Sorceror.

[incinerator950]

We're not cool enough.

[Dallas Drake]

@Dami3n, @DallasDrake and @InsanePsychopath thanks for the tips, im switching the plasma combis over to melta and adding the melta special weapon to the squad.

 

@InsanePsychopath it was you old bat reps that inspird me quite a while ago to start up a solid Rhino based army, I still read through them every so often!

 

@malisteen @Dammeron @ DallasDrake - very interesting concept, can we get a thread on it in the CSM forum? I think it would be very useful indeed!  @hornywingythingy - well that settles that then I suppose lol 

 

Not to derail the thread or anything, but has anyone else noticed this Cup being quite a bit different? MAny upsets so far, and Cahil's goal of the century! Australia actually did a thing at the cup!!!!

 

As a die-hard Everton fan for the last 25 years I've got nothing but respect for Cahil's talent. Best of luck to Australia too!

[Sception]

I have not been watching the world cup this time around, out of respect for the protesters in Brazil.

[Nehekhare]

Hey that's an upgrade! Now there is not less, but only just as much difference between Thousand Sons and Night Lords as between the 2nd and 3rd companies of the Iron Hands ;)

[Iron Skull Mask]

I really think Rhinos got much better by more than the actual vehicle rules changes. It's also (F)MC's got nerved, new missions, etc. (that should bring the thread back ontopic - hopefully )

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

This topic is Chaos Rhinos in 7th ed, let keep it on topic.

 

IP

[Sception]

It's the world cup that grants attention and an audience all over the world to those protesters.

That is a complete cop out, because it's the world cup that they're protesting, the hundreds of millions of dollars squandered on it in a nation full of people in desperate poverty, the people displaced from homes and historic sites so they could be bulldozed to host these games, the exploitation of local adults and children by foreign tourists.

 

When you see protests against police brutality on the news, do you say "wow, it sure was nice of the police to be so needlessly violent and abusive as to give these protesters a voice in the news media"?

[Sheesh Mode]

 

 

But my point is that the csm codex is all we have. Why keep comparing it to other codicies that we don't use. So what if rhinos are expensive for us? If we shouldn't use them because a different codex gets them for less points, go play that codex instead or at least try to offer some sort of alternative.

 

Tbh, I don't see nay saying the entire codex as being useful advice.

 

I may not play competitively but my rhinos have performed great as objective grabbers. Just a 10 man csm squad with plasma or melta works great with objective secured. I tend to take my rhinos cheap with just a dozer for an upgrade.

 

Your missing the point . There is no rhino in csm lists . There are csm list and csm lists that use units in rhinos cost too much , compering to what they do . And they are not the type of a unit you can run as single . Eldar can run a single WK. it is a good single unit[multiple are kind of win more], to take rhinos you need to take 3-4 of them and even if the stuff inside is bare bones , it already decides half the list and the tactics for first 2-3 turns.And that is predicible ,and that works only for ++2 re-roll type builds.

 

I'm not going to argue that we have poor rhino armies, in-fact I agree. I prefer my marines ride in Landraiders because of their durability and general reliability. But I disagree with your 'cannot' statements. I run an expensive (67pts) rhino on its own with a unit of Plasma-chosen inside who are a support unit for my chosen star led by Khârn. I have never had a major need to take more than that, the single rhino sometimes isn't even necessary, my chosen star kills a lot of models on its own. But I digress.

 

What I want to talk to you about is the fact that you are claiming rhinos are worthless. They are not, they have uses, even chaos marines need metal boxes. Sure it's an 11, 11, 10 transport for 35pts that can be taken out by Grenade Launchers but that does not change its utility; it can move 18"s a turn! Even if it is destroyed I've already gotten my marines that much closer to where they need to be: closer to the enemy. 

 

Our rhinos have the same stats, movement, and cost as Vanilla, DA, and SW's with access to better weaponry to support the squads they hold. How can you compare our transports to other codex's when they perform different roles? My rhino is NOT going to do as much as a Wave Serpent. How could it? Nor will it be quite as good as a Grey Knight rhino with their shiny paint jobs and anti-Daemon warding. No, I feel you simply have a problem accepting Codex spacemarines for what it is: a different codex. 

 

I agree with many of the posters here in-that it is not useful to anyone to simply disregard an entire codex instead of looking for a means of making it work. Perhaps this isn't the army for you.

[Sception]

He's not arguing that rhinos are useless, he said he'd take them for cultists if he could.  His argument is that they're crippled by having to take our power armored units to field them, which he feels are all pretty terrible, and by having that terribleness multiplied several times over due to rhinos being the kind of units that you want to run several of if you run any at all - one or two rhinos is just too fragile.

 

I happen to think a few of our power armored units manage to meet the dizzy heights of 'mediocre' myself, so I'm not quite as negative about mech CSM builds myself, but then again, I hardly ever actually play anymore, and have played exactly zero games of 7th edition, so what do I know?

[Sheesh Mode]

He's not arguing that rhinos are useless, he said he'd take them for cultists if he could.  His argument is that they're crippled by having to take our power armored units to field them, which he feels are all pretty terrible, and by having that terribleness multiplied several times over due to rhinos being the kind of units that you want to run several of if you run any at all - one or two rhinos is just too fragile.

 

Then I ought to have cut off half off the last half of my post. Personally, I play an army that forces my opponent to make tough decisions; do they shoot at the landraider, vindicator, or the tiny rhino in the back? The lack of redundancy works in my favor because it doesn't draw attention to a particular portion of the army. One rhino is fine if you are using it appropriately: as a support unit. Not as the tip of a spear head. The rhino is a transport not a siege weapon and must be used as such, we cannot expect our equipment to perform a task they cannot do. Flamers will never hurt Landraiders, and Meltas are redundant against mobs. 

 

This same logic applies to CSM. 

[Dallas Drake]

I don't think anyone is suggesting using Rhinos to lead spearheads. In my experience when I take AV11 and AV13/14 my opponent will just shoot their S6-7 weapons at my Rhinos and the S9+/lance/melta at my Land Raider etc.

 

That said, cover is only 25% and with ruins you're generally looking at a 3+ cover save, not bad. Plus, if you do need to get somewhere that 12"+6" is pretty decent for a move, it's just a shame about the changes to charging out of a stationary vehicle (yet you can still charge out of a building!?).

 

The Jeske has got a good point, which is really part of a larger issue to do with our whole Troops section (which we won't go into here) but at its points cost I think Rhinos are pretty good; I wouldn't take a unit of Plague Marines without a Rhino.

[hopkins]

Last time I checked it said Chaos Space Marines on the front of the book, and that's what Iike to use. Dudes in power armour; marines, havocs, raptors, chosen, plague marines etc with optional metal boxes

. 

It does exactly what it says on the tin

[disease]

I admit I've not read the whole thread, so forgive me...

 

What do people think of 'dakka' rhinos? It's well known that choas doesn't have the razorback but I have had some success (especially in smaller point games) running the dakka rhino. It consists of one regular rhino (combi Bolter as standard) and additional combi Bolter, a combi plasma and a havoc launcher. Due to the chaos vehicle upgrade wording, there doesn't seem to be restriction on number of upgrades that can be taken. This dakka rhino still has two firing ports so I like to run 5 man squads in them with special weaps and just park on midfield objectives

[Chaeron]

I would think it's probably too expensive for it's actual output - but no real harm in trying it. Could be excellent against Horde armies.

[the jeske]

the last time we could stack up on infinite number of bolters on a rhino was in 2ed with nurgle possessed rhinos.

 

Rhinos as gun boats don't have the proper arment[and no havock launchers are not a good stand in for Las/plas or
Hvy bolter with super ammo] to be used effectivly. Technicly we can load them up with plasma PMs , but it costs more points then it is worth and av11 is not resilient enough to warrent the extra cost.

[Emperors Immortals]

I know its nit the most efficient setup, but I've played a few games with 10csm, 2 melta, meltacombi and dozer in the rhino. I can keep mobile and still do some damage with it in a support role. I found the launcher rarely got used or was worth it.

[Deadman Wade]

I've used two 5-man havoc squads with two missile launchers in each in rhinos with havoc launchers, and I like it so far. Inexpensive unit that can shoot two different targets, hurt 3+ armor, AV12+ vehicles, hordes of light infantry, and can hold objectives. It isn't huge fire magnet, so it can live for enough to do some damage.

As for razorbacks, units that take it as dedicated transports need to disembark to shoot their weapons, and as actual weapon platform it's mediocore - 5-man tactical squad inside lascannon razorback costs more than tri-las predator, while doing less damage. So it isn't any better than rhino with a couple of heavy or special weapons inside.

[incinerator950]

...baby got havocbacks?

[the jeske]

Rocket launchers with their ap 3 are horrible at destroying anything with av, and there aren't many meq forces that walk on foot to warrent their use.