Dakka Predator instead of TFC

[minigun762]

Both are exactly the same point cost assuming you take the storm bolter. While you do lose barrage , you gain a more durable and mobile unit.

 

Overall firepower is closely matched. Assuming 1.5 models per small blast, we'll average 6 hits for TFC compared to 6.67 hits from the Predator. TFC will have superior S but inferior AP.

[Tiger9gamer]

I say Thunderfire. It's T7 all the time against shooting and that barrage can mess people up bad. Plus the Tech marine can still buff terrain and can get revenge when his cannon dies 

 

 

(i want him to have PE on the unit that kills his gun)

[Emperors Immortals]

Im a big treadhead, but im kind of going to say the TF unless there are multiple rhino/predators in the army.

 

Do any of the CT benefit the TF?

 

As far as

i can see, the TF benefits from RAvenGuard, maybe the UM tactical doctrine, but is that it?

 

Im not counting the Techmarine gunner himself, who gets all the CT.

[BassWave]

TF also doesn't have to move to see targets. If the predator moves, it's firing one weapon at full bs at best. If you really want tanks, take a whirlwind, it's much better at anti infantry than the pred. Its also cheaper than a TF.

 

Honestly, I have a really hard time justifying the predator in 40k, it is really mediocre. Arming it with an executioner cannon makes it awesome however.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Plus, you're working on averages.  Not everyone can or does perfectly space out their infantry at full coherency distance.  There are some cases even where its almost physically impossible to do so and still have the unit be effective -- such as a Marine squad piling out of a Rhino to shoot at something -- or where there are simply too many models in a relatively small area to spread out effectively (ie, greentide or Nid gribblies).  It is in these cases where the TFC really earns its money.  In 5th edition, I had a game where a squad of Thousand Sons jumped out of a Rhino and rapid fired a Combat Squad.  In reply, my TFC put four on-target templates on them and wiped the whole unit.  The change to Barrage made them, in my opinion, less effective against Marine squads (which tend to be too small to benefit much from "flipping" the blast template) but more effective against horde armies because you'll have more models on the table to potentially hit, and the randomness of the flip can often make a mockery of your attempt to achieve maximum coherency.

 

Plus, you have to remember the special munitions of the TFC.  A full-dakka Predator can put a decent number of shots down range, but none of them will ever have Ignores Cover; against, say, a full mob of Lootas behind an Aegis Line, that's a match the Predator will likely lose.  The TFC, on the other hand, can end that particular set of shennanigans in a single shooting phase.

[Azash]

Not sure its so cut and dried anymore. With the eternal war missions you can hide and camp till your hearts content. Malestrom missions force armies to bemore mobile which brings them in range of the dakka pred and essentially out in the open.

 

The direct fire of the dakka pred is more reliable than scattering small blasts. Also barrage takes from the center of the blast. If the new Ork dex favors green tide lists a direct fire tank that can take out the first few ranks and push a blob out of charge range is more valuable.

 

The upside of the TFC though is still has reinforce and a tech marine.

[thepowerofwar]

Some preds can move and shoot. You cant forget about BA's fast preds

[minigun762]

Plus, you're working on averages. Not everyone can or does perfectly space out their infantry at full coherency distance.

But you also have a fair chance of missing the target entirely and if the opponent spaces out well you're limited to 4 hits.

 

The Predator is more reliable in this regard where the TFC has superior potential.

[knife&fork]

Model sniping with barrage is such a huge advantage in the TFs  favour. 

 

EDIT: I've never faced a TF and have them survive turn 1, that's how good I think they are. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Then your opponents aren't hiding them well enough.

[knife&fork]

Unless you really luck out on terrain placement the only safe hiding place from 3 pods and several fast heavy weapons is starting in reserves. 

 

Letting me use a great amount of firepower to bring down a small part of the force is not a bad trade on his part. TFs are just one of those key units who justify such a response.

[Axagoras]

ok so your 3 pods and mm atk bikes blew up 1 tfc, and now fell into the jaws of my 2 chapter masters and bikers... gg

Now back to the real topic on hand a dakka pred cant survive in the line of fire for long with 2 HUGE av 11 side panels. and the 6 heavy bolter shots and the 2 autocannon shots are only good at killing elite models with 4+ saves, otherwise you slagged 4-5 guys assuming no cover and you stayed still. While a tfc can focus anywhere on the board for targets of opportunity, while hiding in a bolstered ruin or behind a wall (and if there isnt a fair amount of LOS blocking terrain on your table then this hypothetical doesnt belong in the tactica section because thats just a auto win for tau/guard arty party)

[knife&fork]

ok so your 3 pods and mm atk bikes blew up 1 tfc, and now fell into the jaws of my 2 chapter masters and bikers... gg

 

Now back to the real topic on hand a dakka pred cant survive in the line of fire for long with 2 HUGE av 11 side panels. and the 6 heavy bolter shots and the 2 autocannon shots are only good at killing elite models with 4+ saves, otherwise you slagged 4-5 guys assuming no cover and you stayed still. While a tfc can focus anywhere on the board for targets of opportunity, while hiding in a bolstered ruin or behind a wall (and if there isnt a fair amount of LOS blocking terrain on your table then this hypothetical doesnt belong in the tactica section because thats just a auto win for tau/guard arty party)

 

I see no need to be snarky, we agree after all that the TF is the vastly superior pick.

 

That I make them the top priority to kill off changes nothing, no unit outside of real deathstars (which we don't even have) will stand up to any serious attention from the better part of a capable opponent. The thunderfire worries me more than a biker squad or chapter masters because it's a really good and flexible unit that will contribute in many ways for the entire game unless killed off quickly.

 

A dakka pred on the other hand would likely just get more or less ignored until I've taken care of the dangerous stuff. 

 

If you want a tank, get the Sicaran! :D

[Axagoras]

Once again that is your list, outside marines there are pretty much 0 army lists that can deepstrike that much to kill it turn 1 (unless i roll 1s like always). And not trying to be snarky, just that bringing up how your specific list would kill a tfc would get countered by another specific list. And sicarans are an amazing tank, if you want a predator run one of them... unfortunately blood angels can take it, which baffles me considering that they dont do anything for the admech so why should the admech help them... *grumble grumble*

[knife&fork]

Well Eldar and Tau all have Highly mobile ignore cover weapon platforms and AM have plenty of barrage. Even sisters of battle have those nasty scouting, ignore cover, meltas. It's not unreasonable to state that TFs might not be long lived when the opponent perceives them as a threat. 

 

Actually I'm in the process of putting one together right now and I'm wondering if it's worth buying a pod for it just for the added flexibility... 

[Disruptor_fe404]

Blood Angels being able to take Sicarans has nothing to do with their relationship with the AdMech and everything to do with maintaining them since the HH.

 

I do agree that a TF is a better choice than a Predator, but it's also a more visible choice, insofar that many opponents will prioritise them, while a Predator may fly under the radar for a little while, so to speak.

[Axagoras]

I would only take a pod to add extra pods to a deepstriking army, because even if you pod it in turn 1 you miss a turn of fire as you roll out

[SillyDreadnought]

 

Now back to the real topic on hand a dakka pred cant survive in the line of fire for long with 2 HUGE av 11 side panels.

 

I've never found the side armour of my Predators to be particularly difficult to hide. Nine times out of ten, they always have their front towards the most dangerous source of fire that turn, and the flanks either covered by Razorbacks or terrain. Predators are a whole lot more positioning reliant than TFC's though. Park in a bad position or don't angle your tank enough so that the front AV is the only thing to shoot at, and you lose the tank every time. TFC's you can just park in a ruin for a 3+ reinforced save in your DZ, or hide behind a wall of Rhinos/ADL and forget about the movement phase entirely for that model.

 

That said, I prefer the Predator over the TFC because of how much more rewarding it is to use an underrated unit.

[minigun762]

At this point I can't help but think that people are assuming SM will take the TFC and planning accordingly.

Taking a battle tank instead might be worth it just to mess with the expectations.