Vanguard Vets...any ideas?

[Azash]

This topic comes up every new edition and codex I thought I might as well bring it up. Personally I'd like to run these guys but I have never found anything they are particularly effective at that another unit can't do better or for less points.

 

So new edition a few changes to the core rules from 6th...did this unit benefit at all? I can't see much of any but with the rules to flying mc' s and assault it did give me an idea.

 

Grav pistol and power maul on each vet. Use them as a counter attack squad with a 19" kill bubble. At 52 pts a model it ain't cheap not super sure this is that useful either. Why not just shoot'em down with cents?

 

The other idea is 10 bare bones vets in a redeemer with a chaplain or a cheap priest from the sisters Dex. Use Heroic intervention and for 190 points you multi assault and clear up two blobs at a time.

 

Those are the best ideas I can come up with. Anyone else get inspired about there VV after reading the 7th?

[SyNidus]

Check out the Raven Guard subforum, Vanguard Veterans happen to be a very popular discussion topic there.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm liking the Grav Pistol + Bolt Pistol build, with a few Storm Shields sprinkled in. Its expensive, but they can handle almost anything, Hammer of Wrath on a Charge (if you save their Jump Packs for Assault), and still absorb hits. Raven Guard do it better, though, as they can move and charge with their Packs instead of move or charge.

 

SJ

[Jolemai]

Run them as Blood Angel VVs until our new Codex is released ;)

[minigun762]

I still like melta bomb spam, especially now that armor is tougher and assault MCs are less common.

 

The advantage they have over combi melta Sternguard is being cheaper and can be used more than once.

[GreyCrow]

As Synidus pointed out, check the Raven Guard subfforum, there's a lot of discussions regarding the Vanguard Veterans !

 

First of all, it's tempting to gear them for melee only, but points for points, they get super expensive and will never beat the points effectiveness of a unit like assault terminators.

 

I think that Vanguard Veterans should be geared for shooting, then assaulting. I wouldn't recommend going for all grav pistols because it is less effective than plasma on all targets except terminators (albeit it's safer), but if you want to concuss something, one or 2 grav pistols might do the trick ! I would sprinkle a few melee weapons here and there for good measure as well, so that you have a unit that is capable at shooting and assaulting.

 

While Sternguard Veterans should be looked at as a buffed up variant of the shooty tactical squad, vanguard veterans should be looked at as a buffed up variant of the assault tactical squad : they shoot, then they charge, and they are all the more mobile thanks to jump packs ! Because they can bring multiple nice pistols and multiple nice melee weapons they have a good all around capability.

 

In a 7 man squad with jump packs, taking 3 gunslingers (with 2 plasma pistols and one grav for example) as well as 3 Power weapons (3 claws or swords or lances because you want them to strike at initiative 4) and 2 melta bombs for good measure.

It costs 250 points, and you have a relatively effective all around unit that can tackle multiple threats :

- They will have 10 shots (7 bolt pistols + 3 special), which is better than a 5 man Terminator squad simply because 3 of the shots will have an AP

- They will have 28 attacks on the charge, including 12 of which are at AP3/AP2, and while Assault Terminators will get 24 AP3 attacks (going for lightning claws and taking 6 of them will clock roughly at the same point equivalent), you have no ability to shoot whatsoever

- They will get Hammer of Wrath under certain circumstances, which is 7 free auto hits at Initiative 10, wounding on 3+ or 4+ for the majority of the targets.

- They will get 2 S8 armourbane attacks against vehicles, should you need them and thanks to their jump packs, they need no delivery transports compared to sternguards with combi-meltas

 

The best part is that they can charge multiple squads, so you could totally shoot at one squad and damage the hell out of it with your 10 shots, then choose to charge only 3 veterans if it's weakened enough, while your 3 power weapons guys charge elsewhere within unit coherency.

 

Overall, play it like a more aggressive tactical squad or a more efficient assault squad : weaken your enemy through shooting before charging, then go in for the kill !

[SyNidus]

Great post Greycrow. Also check http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291763-a-fable-of-fourty-and-two-pistols/ this thread for some discussion on the use of Gunslinger Vanguard.

[Azash]

Overall, play it like a more aggressive tactical squad or a more efficient assault squad : weaken your enemy through shooting before charging, then go in for the kill !

I read this last statement and had to chuckle a little. Basically my assault squads have been shelf bound waging an eternal war with dust bunnies while there bike mounted brethren take their assault roll on the battle field. So when I read that it basically said...leave em at home. Not what you meant obviously but still with a chuckle.

 

Well thought out post tho. I still think these guys really lack without some upgraded war gear. Put it this way they have the same point cost as sternguard same stat line so essentially sternguard pay 0 pts for special ammo. Their upgrades are 10pts each as well.

 

All I see is 260 pts of low model count and 3+ saves that will last about .000007 seconds on the table against our clubs plethora of warp spiders.

 

The assault squads may need some support though those dust bunnies are making incursions! ;)

[GreyCrow]

Well, Vanguard Veterans are not frontline fighters that's for sure ! See them more as a way to put more precise pressure on a spot on the table where you need them to relieve your army of some of the work or to help them put more damage.

Of course, points for points, they'll be less effective than Assault Terminators in melee and they'll be less effective than Sternguards in shooting. Which is what leads me to not specialize them in anything, but rather give them an all around capability.

Think of them along the lines of shooty Terminators that are geared for anti-infantry duty. Tactical Terminators have a decent shooting capability, but are much more interesting in melee thanks to their free power fists. Vanguard Vets are better than Tactical Terminators at shooting and are able to strike at Initiative in melee. The goal with Vanguard Vets is to weaken a squad through firepower, then assault it, weaken him more with Hammer of Wrath and finish it in melee.

They also might not last as long as a full 10 man tactical squad, but they have more damage capability. Those Warp Spiders are going to chew through the Tactical squad anyways, so while you'll have more bodies, you'll have less return fire. Which is okay, if you built your army on resilience and taking damage rather than dealing it.

The Vanguard Vets are 22 points a model when taken barebones with a Jump Pack, with 3 attacks base and a bolt pistol. The only time I would take them this way is if you can't take an Assault Squad because your Fast Attack slots are full When giving them a upgrade of any kind except the most expensive ones, it brings them at 37 points a model. Which is more than decent for the tactical flexibility they bring.

But they're Elites, so don't expect to run them as you would cheap Troops. Elites in the Marines Codex are built to provide an edge at a specific moment in the battle, rather than carry the game

For example, even though I run Raven Guard, I'll be taking a 6 man Assault Terminator squad simply because I don't have any strong melee capability in my army and points for points these guys are by far the best. If I had an army more geared for Dakka with a low volume of high strength shot, 7 gunslinging plasma veterans are nothing to be laughed at ! That's 14 shots per turn including 7 plasma shots, and 28 attacks on the charge, plus the Hammer of Wrath, and that comes nearly at the same price as 6 Assault Terminators.