Deus Imperator Vult Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Ok so I think we can agree that the Thousand Sons are the most tragic story in the 30k universe, as destasteful as it is for me to pitty pskyers, I mean they were forced into turning traitor by circumstance and had to flee into the warp to survive. And, atleast til the HH books reach Terra the current lore states that Magnus appeared before Horus and offered help in the assault correct? But something about that has never sat right with me yes seeing what was done to Prospero would have had a substantial effect on him, much like Monarchia did to Lorgar, BUT in A Thousand Sons Magnus never comes off as petty or spiteful as the Word Bearer. I mean with the exception of that little webway mistake he appeared to be one of he more, if not the most, intelligent Primarch. Even post Prospero in books like Betrayer he never comes off as Jaded and eager for revenge. Correct me if I'm wrong but it even seems like he's chastising Lorgar for worshiping the Chaos gods at one point. Anyway, I'm sure these issues will be addressed in time, for now my thought is this. How much differently would the final battle have gone if the Thousand Sons had appeared at the loyalists side? Ok there would have been some friction with the Castodians but I think Dorn would very quickly seperate the two forces. They would be much more than extra bolters on the walls... And yes there is the issue of Prospero but am I the only one who thinks if they helped save the palace that all of a sudden there would be alot more voices chastising Russ for the heavy handed approach to that world? (waits to be ripped asulder by the Vikia Fenrika) Annnnnnd discuss... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Apart from a contention that Russ was also a victim of Horus' scheming, i.e. he and Valdor were doing as they were instructed, you wont much disagreement on this one from me. The primarchs are all shown to have very human failings - perhaps even more so, but I'm hardly the first to write this. I'm looking forward to reading more on Magnus' deliberations, as well as more on Mortarion's gradual shift between his mindset in Scars to that in Vegeful Spirit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The only way he would have stayed loyal under the circumstances of the burning of Prospero would have been in death. Had he died there and then, and his legion with him, it would have had a positive impact on the outcome for the loyalists in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 How so? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Arvida manages loyalty after knowing the truth and he is but a humble Marine Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daevyll Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If Magnus had remained loyal, he could have taken place on the Golden Throne and the Emperor could have taken a direct hand in the heresy... that would have been a game-changer I'd say, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 His legion sealed his fate, regardless of his action. they fought back. The wolves would have wanted blood all the same Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 well, I see Magnus's first betrayal being the pact made with the chaos pantheon to halt the Flesh Change that was destroying his Legion prior to him taking command. For him to stay loyal, he would have had to let the 1k Sons die. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW1 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The big E needed to have been more honest about chaos with him. Not having that knowledge damned him as much as the errors he made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The big E needed to have been more honest about chaos with him. Not having that knowledge damned him as much as the errors he made. This. Whether by design or just plain stupidity the Emperor created 20 demi gods, with the skill, power and most importantly intelligence to help him conquer the galaxy. Maybe I'm being overly critical but to me, asking someone to accept something on faith when they're more than capable of reasoning it themselves, concerning the fate of the human race no less, is probably the biggest mistake the Emperor ever made Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
markham82 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I agree with SW1. The sons had warp pets( read demons) before all this heresy stuff started, so they were in trouble anyways. Burn me for a heretic, but the emperor made a big mistake buy giving the primarchs ( who often comes across as children in giant bodies) loaded guns( their legions) and didn't teach them the proper use of that power. Teach the Lion some people skills so he doesn't give Perturabo ordinatus weapons in return for his "vote". Sit down Lorgar and explain why daddy isn't a god. Also step on Erebus' neck on the way out. Explain to Magnus what's up in the warp, he's a clever boy. Pull out the angry nails out of Angrons head. Then take him and Russ all of his boys to anger management classes. Could it be that the emperor had some human failings himself? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Could it be that the emperor had some human failings himself? That's exactly what the Emperor is, isn't it? All the positive & negative aspects of the human psyche, mixed with helluva power & intelligence - what a surprise, he has flaws. You just need to look at the approach he took to Magnus, or the manner in which he admonished the Word Bearers to show that. The Emperor is what it means to be a human ramped up to 11. Ambition, inquisitiveness, selfishness, and most significantly, unwillingness to accept information that contradicts his world view. Every single human being has the tendency to externalize their mistakes / failings - and so does the Emperor - anger clouds his judgement. He may be so much more than human, but all the psychic power in the galaxy won't let him escape his human origins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 He may be so much more than human, but all the psychic power in the galaxy won't let him escape his human origins. Good post, because he is an amalgam of human souls, so many and so powerful ones, but it bears underlining and repeating: THE EMPEROR WAS NEVER EVER HUMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE. He was created, not born, he is Humanity's avatar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The big E needed to have been more honest about chaos with him. Not having that knowledge damned him as much as the errors he made. This. So much this. Magnus was a friggin psyker, and yet Mr.E figured he should still insist that Chaos and the Warp Gods are myth and legend? What's wrong with the guy!? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
markham82 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Brother Krieg, I didn't know that, source pleeaassse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Brother Krieg, I didn't know that, source pleeaassse.Generally old BRBs, don't know if the fluff is mentioned in the 7ed book, haven't read it yet. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind I was imprecise in my wording, he was physically born as a child in Anatolia (Lesser Asia), but his soul is a ritual amalgam of humanity's greatest psykers reincarnated into that body. Since the very beginning he was not "human" by any discernable degree, superior to mortal humanity by all accounts and the most powerful psyker ever. Origins The Emperor is the collective reincarnation of all the shamans of Neolithic humanity's various peoples, the first human psykers. The foul Warp entities that would become the four Great Powers of Chaos had not yet fully formed when the Emperor was born on Earth during prehistoric times, somewhere in ancient central Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the 8th Millennium B.C. But even before the birth of the Emperor, as humanity grew and progressed, the Warp began to become increasingly disturbed by the dark undercurrents of humanity's collective psyche, and the shamans began to lose their former ability to reincarnate into new bodies. Instead, upon dying, their souls were being consumed by the entities and daemons of the Warp. Eventually the shamans of humanity, unable to reincarnate, would become extinct, and without the shamans and their psychic abilities to guide the race, humanity would inevitably fall prey to the corruptions of Chaos, just as eventually happened to the Eldar. In these ancient days, all the shamans of Earth gathered in a grand conclave to decide what must be done to stave off the day when they had all been consumed by the Warp. In the end, the shamans decided to pool their collective psychic energies by reincarnating as a single soul in a single human body to create an individual they called "the New Man." The thousands of shamans, as one, took poison, and as one, they died, their souls flowing into the Immaterium in a rush of psychic power that overwhelmed those daemons who sought to feast upon it with a cleansing, purifying fire, a flame imperishable that became one soul out of many. A year later the child who would become the Emperor was born in a Neolithic settlement of Anatolian herders and farmers. His psychic power was so great that its energies altered his genome and physiology in the womb and rendered him immortal so he would no longer need to reincarnate and could not be assaulted by the daemonic creatures of the Immaterium upon his death. As he grew older, his potent psychic powers began to manifest. Over the many millennia of his life, he travelled among the different peoples of Mankind, using his ancient wisdom to help where he could in the guise of many different benevolent persons from human myth, religion and history. But as his psychic powers further developed, he became ever more aware of the terrible dangers that awaited Mankind in the broader universe and he resolved to do all in his power to defend and guide humanity towards a future as the predominant species in the galaxy. As more and more humans were born with the mutant psyker genes that granted them the ability to wield the potent power of the Immaterium in the last centuries of the Dark Age of Technology, and humanity suffered from the deadly effects of uncontrolled psykers, the Emperor realised that he would have to take a more direct and open role in human affairs than ever before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Getting back to Magnus - him remaining on the side of the loyalists was an impossibility. Lorgar was the first heretic, but Magnus was the first primarch to fall when he rescued his legion from the flesh change by bargaining with the changer of ways. From that moment he was bound by fate to be Tzeentch's pawn. His knowledge or acceptance of this fact were both irrelevant. Magnus in the run up to his breaking of the Emperor's wards on Terra was the perfect paragon of Tzeentch, every bit as much as Angron in Betrayer or Fulgrim in Angel Exterminatus for their respective patrons. He destroyed the Emperor's dreams for humanity by trying to save them, and fulfilled his destiny as the chosen of Tzeentch by trying to reject it. He didn't accept the status quo demanded by the Emperor's decree, he sought to intervene to alter the course of events and avoid the fate awaiting the Imperium. All of this exemplifies what it is to be a servant of Tzeentch, and all of these actions brought about the fate that Tzeentch had manufactured from the outset. Loyalty, whether to the Emperor or to Tzeentch, is irrelevant. Magnus fell by looking too deeply into the warp, and was bound to Tzeentch by a fate that made any such loyalties worthless. Holding out hope that you can escape your fate, all while serving that fate in your attempts to escape - that's what being a champion of Tzeentch is all about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 He may be so much more than human, but all the psychic power in the galaxy won't let him escape his human origins. Good post, because he is an amalgam of human souls, so many and so powerful ones, but it bears underlining and repeating: THE EMPEROR WAS NEVER EVER HUMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE. He was created, not born, he is Humanity's avatar. Yeah, when I said 'human origins' I meant the fact he is effectively concentrated homo sapiens - I wasn't suggesting he was just some super powerful bloke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 He may be so much more than human, but all the psychic power in the galaxy won't let him escape his human origins. Good post, because he is an amalgam of human souls, so many and so powerful ones, but it bears underlining and repeating: THE EMPEROR WAS NEVER EVER HUMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE. He was created, not born, he is Humanity's avatar. Yeah, when I said 'human origins' I meant the fact he is effectively concentrated homo sapiens - I wasn't suggesting he was just some super powerful bloke. As was said above he actually was born but his soul was made up of all the shamans and stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Magnus stays loyal means that the Horus heresy ends in two years tops. Magnus would easily be Horus most dangerous opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Because we see the story from the point of view of Magnus and Ahriman in 1000 sons, I think we may have an unduly sympathetic view of Magnus. As I see it Magnus was doomed by his own hubris. Magnus could have surrendered to the Emperor's judgement at any of several points: before Nikea he could have taken the Emperor's admonitions about the warp more seriously. After Nikea he could have enforced the Edict on his own legion. Even after his debacle with the web way, he could (possibly) have surrendered to Russ and returned to Terra for trial. Magnus, however, simply would not accept the limits to psychic activity that the Emperor imposed on him; he kept trying to change the Emperor's mind, or (failing that) keep his Legion's psychic studies anyway. He would have had to come clean about his bargain with Tzeench, and it might have cost him his legion or his life, but then again, it might not have. We have never seen how the Emperor would treat a repentant son. Moreover, as I recall, Magnus and the Emperor did have some significant time together, in which the Emperor instructed Magnus as a psyker. He may not have told Magnus everything about the Runinous Powers, but I bet he told him a lot about why he should be careful. As far as how helpful Magnus would have been, had he remained loyal in the heresy: I guess it would depend on at which point his loyalty asserted itself. Overall, I think that if Horus had still rebelled, Magnus' loyalty would not have helped the loyalists all that much. If Magnus had reformed his legion, pre or post Nikea, to rely less heavily on psychic powers, the 1000 sons would have been a smallish legion (assuming they didn't all melt into mutant jello blobs). Their more limited psychic powers might have helped against the warp powers of the traitors, but maybe not. If Nikea had been unnecessary, then the loyalist legions might have still had librarians. Magnus himself would have been an asset, too, but how big a one it's hard to say. But I don't see a loyal Magnus and his 1000 sons making a huge difference in the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 While I can see how people blame the Emperor for not informing Magnus of the denizens of the Warp (which he actually did according to the Collected Visions, but I guess we're ignoring that), he didnt inform any of the other Primarchs either. those two main supporters of the Librarius program, Sanguinius and the Khan, neither of them went batsh!t crazy over the use of psychic powers. The Khan even cautioned Magnus on delving too deep. Russ's Rout also lectured Magnus's legion of delving too deep. the Emperor, when he found Magnus, spent multiple months exploring the Warp with Magnus and warning him of it's denizens. The Emperor then made Magnus halt his sorcery, which Magnus promised to do. So the Emperor found a problem, took steps to contain said problem, and then moved on. His true failure was given such a flawed creature so much power. If Magnus had more faith in the Emperor, and less ego, who knows how this would have ended up. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Ok, I think my tag line for this topic was a little off I'm not arguing that bartering with the pantheon to halt the flesh change made him a traitor, technically. More that he could have redeemed himself quite easily. I mean yeah that whole webway thing was a mess but he was doing it to try and raise the alarm about Horus. But they show up at the palace. Pavoni sorcerers help disable enemy titans by warping the crews within, corvide forsee traitor breaching points so counter attacks can be made, and kine shields can be used to hold positions or shelter emplacements from targeted attacks. Also, if Magnus was present he could have taken the golden throne when the Emperor attacked the Vengeful Spirit meaning Malcador need not die. If they pulled that off I don't think even the Emperor could still be mad at him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Getting back to Magnus - him remaining on the side of the loyalists was an impossibility. Lorgar was the first heretic, but Magnus was the first primarch to fall when he rescued his legion from the flesh change by bargaining with the changer of ways. From that moment he was bound by fate to be Tzeentch's pawn. His knowledge or acceptance of this fact were both irrelevant. Magnus in the run up to his breaking of the Emperor's wards on Terra was the perfect paragon of Tzeentch, every bit as much as Angron in Betrayer or Fulgrim in Angel Exterminatus for their respective patrons. He destroyed the Emperor's dreams for humanity by trying to save them, and fulfilled his destiny as the chosen of Tzeentch by trying to reject it. He didn't accept the status quo demanded by the Emperor's decree, he sought to intervene to alter the course of events and avoid the fate awaiting the Imperium. All of this exemplifies what it is to be a servant of Tzeentch, and all of these actions brought about the fate that Tzeentch had manufactured from the outset. Loyalty, whether to the Emperor or to Tzeentch, is irrelevant. Magnus fell by looking too deeply into the warp, and was bound to Tzeentch by a fate that made any such loyalties worthless. Holding out hope that you can escape your fate, all while serving that fate in your attempts to escape - that's what being a champion of Tzeentch is all about. I strongly disagree on the fate aspect. In the fluff, Tzeentch isn't about actually binding and controlling people, at least not in the way that the 6th edition Puppet Master power worked. Tzeentch methods are all focused on manipulating events so that people make choices that end up benefiting his grand design. In the Daemon codex, look at the efforts he goes to in order to get one single Grey Knight to maybe kind of wonder if he's doing the right thing. Or look at the Blue Scribes that he has scouring the universe for pieces of his staff. He put those two idiots in charge because he knows that even if they manage to assemble the whole thing they'll be to busy arguing with each other to try and use its power against him, and those are his daemons, in theory simply calved off pieces of himself and even then he thinks they have enough free will to be a danger to him if they ever got their act together. Now in Magnus' case, the deal to save the Sons from the Flesh Change is was started him on the path to damnation, but (IMO) not in some obvious 'Tzeentch has him under his thumb' sort of way. The key thing to come out of the deal as far as Tzeentch was concerned is that Magnus thought he got one over on Tzeentch. This led to Magnus then overestimating his ability to deal with warp entities, and underestimating the risks of the warp. Tzeentch was basically being a pool shark and Magnus was the mark. Magnus, like all primarchs, had a fair amount of hubris, and by thinking that he had been able to deal successfully with Tzeentch, that got dialed up to 11. And in the end it was Magnus' hubris, helped along with a friendly word to Russ by Horus that led to his downfall. If Fate exists, then what happens to Free Will, and without Free Will, what is the point of a 'master manipulator' like Tzeentch? My personal theory is that even in 40k, Magnus still has the full freedom to choose his path, it's just that Tzeench's past actions have so gotten into his head that he can't even imagine being able to break away from his patron. It's like breaking a prisoner to the point that even if you gave them the key to their cell they'd refuse to use it, thinking that it's just another trap that will lead to bad things happening. Now if Magnus had stayed loyal to the Emperor, then the Heresy would have been a very short lived affair. Possibly the webway would never have been breached, or Magnus could have been around to stick on the throne to hold it shut, either way you'd have the Emperor able to head off and punch the traitors' heads off. Depending on where the Sons were and what they were doing, it's also possible that the dropsite massacre could have been prevented, as having a bunch of powerful telepaths and precogs running around greatly increases the chances that the four 'sleeper' legions would have been found out. Depending on at which point Magnus stops doing brilliant yet stupid things, a Thousand Sons-less Heresy could involve the traitors nuking Prospero from orbit, the Thousand Sons heading off on a suicide run to try and stop the heresy before it really gets going, or just Magnus holding the webway shut while the Emperor is able to rally the troops and boot head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The fundamental problem with the 40k universe is that it is basically one giant haunted house. Its easy to criticize the Emperor's actions in retrospect, but I think no matter what he did, it would have turned out badly. The house always wins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/#findComment-3723941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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