Wade Garrett Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Magnus stays loyal means that the Horus heresy ends in two years tops. Magnus would easily be Horus most dangerous opponent. Yes. The incredible combat prowess he displayed in wrapping his spine around the Wolf King's knee would no doubt have Horus quaking in his pauldrons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3723989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Or magnus, being the most physchically gifted, upon realising that the traitors aren't sticking to the edict, goes all doctor manhatten on Lorgar and Erebus, taking out a strong percentage of the traitors warp spawned dealings. Or he could play with swords because you know all primarchs do what daddy says to the exact letter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3723998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I mean with the exception of that little webway mistake he appeared to be one of he more, if not the most, intelligent Primarch. Was he really, though? Seems to me you'd need to make tons of exceptions in order for that to be true. The guy was definitely booksmart, but the vast majority of his intellect was focused on a specific field that he was ignorant about in nearly every way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Or magnus, being the most physchically gifted, upon realising that the traitors aren't sticking to the edict, goes all doctor manhatten on Lorgar and Erebus, taking out a strong percentage of the traitors warp spawned dealings. Or he could play with swords because you know all primarchs do what daddy says to the exact letter. Could he actually do that though? If he spurned the boons given to him, would Magnus be the psychic power house that we know him as? Or would Tzeentch, being foiled from a good (?) minion, simply empower another chess piece and take his place? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Or magnus, being the most physchically gifted, upon realising that the traitors aren't sticking to the edict, goes all doctor manhatten on Lorgar and Erebus, taking out a strong percentage of the traitors warp spawned dealings. He tried that at the Serpent Lodge on Davin. Erebus's response was essentially "Awww, wookit hims with his wittle sorcery! Who's a cute wittle psyker Primarch? You's a cute wittle psyker Primarch!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 In true Tzeentch fashion, I 100% agree with both TemujinZero and daveNYC about how Tzeentch played Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Or magnus, being the most physchically gifted, upon realising that the traitors aren't sticking to the edict, goes all doctor manhatten on Lorgar and Erebus, taking out a strong percentage of the traitors warp spawned dealings. He tried that at the Serpent Lodge on Davin. Erebus's response was essentially "Awww, wookit hims with his wittle sorcery! Who's a cute wittle psyker Primarch? You's a cute wittle psyker Primarch!" Wasn't Magnus on Prospero, astrally projecting across half a galaxy at the time? That's gotta put a strain on the mind powers. I wouldn't say it's an unreasonable statement that Magnus in the flesh would've torn Erebus asunder, either with mind bullets or just popping his head like a grape, being a Primarch and all... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Being a primarch doesn meant you insta-kill chaos gifted marines...look at Lion vs Luther or Kor Phaeron vs Guilliman. Both mere mortals who managed to stand toe to toe against some crazy angry/poweful dudes and do ALOT of damage. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 A lot of people on here seem to think that intellect equates to wisdom. Nothing is further from the truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 If Magnus would have explained the situation to his legion upon learning of the Wolves were coming for them. Put them all on ships and was there waiting to surrender to Russ. The HH would have been a crushing defeat for the Traitors and in all likelyhood would not even be remembered by 40k; just more "Missing Legions". We are talking about adding two full strength Legions to the Loyalist. Who would have returned to Terra very early in the Heresy, the Astropaths on Terra would still be alive and Magnus possibly aiding the Emperor in ending the Webway war or at the very least being able to assist him. The only real downside is the flesh change which would either have to be fixed or the legion ended. Which removes the Thousand Son's psychic or might just diminshed it. Then you will have to consider that that almost removes the possibility of the Scars turning. It is hard to not consider the Scars and full strength Wolves hunting the traitors, Magnus' help with the Webway and the possibility of another full strength legion manning the wall at Terra to be complete game changers. Disclaimer: That is to say that Magnus is effectively doomed to side with the traitors after the events at prospero as they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Just fix the Flesh Change? Even the Emperor couldn't do that, or he would have done so when his XV legion started turning into piles of tentacle and goop in power armor before they found Magnus. The Thousand Sons exist only at the sufferance of the Changer of Ways...even if Magnus had surrendered to the Wolves and brought them to the loyalists, they would only be around until Tzeencht pulled the trigger on their condition. And the idea of Magnus detecting the Warp dabbling of the Word Bearers....this is a Primarch who couldn't even figure out the Tutelary Spirits his Legion was binding to itself did not have their best interests at heart. Him spotting corruption in another Legion is as likely as Angron penning the Codex Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I can see that Happening you know! Codex Astartes By Angron, The Red Angel, Big Daddy of the World Eaters Rule #1 Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of the women. Rule # 2 when faced with resistance, attempts at diplomacy, surrender and other such frivolous nonsense,refer to rule #1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Just fix the Flesh Change? Even the Emperor couldn't do that, or he would have done so when his XV legion started turning into piles of tentacle and goop in power armor before they found Magnus. The Thousand Sons exist only at the sufferance of the Changer of Ways...even if Magnus had surrendered to the Wolves and brought them to the loyalists, they would only be around until Tzeencht pulled the trigger on their condition. And the idea of Magnus detecting the Warp dabbling of the Word Bearers....this is a Primarch who couldn't even figure out the Tutelary Spirits his Legion was binding to itself did not have their best interests at heart. Him spotting corruption in another Legion is as likely as Angron penning the Codex Astartes. Ahriman does a quik fix for the flush change by telling the survivors on Prospero during the last stand not to use their powers. Surprise surprise a warp caused mutation can be partially controlled/stopped by not using warp based powers. Them The Outcast Dead cannonises psykers becoming non-psionic by permently breaking their connection to the warp. Possible fix right there. Or failing anything resembling a "Fix", a bullet to the head works. Magnus's aid in the webway and no dead Wolves are the important parts anyways. The idea that Magnus did not know what beings existed in the warp is purely wrong. When he tells everyone about just learning of the primordial annihilator. Ahriman says that he already knew about it. Magnus even goes into Ahriman's head and erases the memory before he could fully graps what deals Magnus had made. When you give names and forms to the beings of the warp you invest them with certain powers. Magnus does not do this and therefore sees the warp as it is, rather then what the warp wants him to see. It is a fatal flaw in the traitors. They don't understand what they are truely getting themselves into untill they cross to many lines. Magnus made bad choices for sure, don't get me wrong. He made a deal with the devil and those never end how the maker expects. But he makes it out of desperation not because he doesn't know what he is doing. Otherwise he would not have prevented Ahriman from finding out. Not calling something a Daemon is not the same as not knowing a being exists as a clump of "Warp". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I can see that Happening you know! Codex Astartes By Angron, The Red Angel, Big Daddy of the World Eaters Rule #1 Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of the women. Rule # 2 when faced with resistance, attempts at diplomacy, surrender and other such frivolous nonsense,refer to rule #1 I can see it to in the world of "What ifs". Angron gets adopted by the Lord of his city and never gets the nails. Perhaps some form of the Codex Astartes could easily have been written by him. There is to many actions taken by the Emperor that look like "Would not" instead of "Could not". For all we really know the Emperor never truely attempted a fix for the flesh change. Instead waiting to see how Magnus would handle it. Imagine if the Emperor's fix for the flesh change would have made the Thousand Sons 100% psychically inempt. How would Magnus have handled a Legion so far removed from himself. I'm sure he could have handled it fine but as it is. That fix would have changed the character of the legion so much that they would look nothing alike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 I can see that Happening you know! Codex Astartes By Angron, The Red Angel, Big Daddy of the World Eaters Rule #1 Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of the women. Rule # 2 when faced with resistance, attempts at diplomacy, surrender and other such frivolous nonsense,refer to rule #1 I can see it to in the world of "What ifs". Angron gets adopted by the Lord of his city and never gets the nails. Perhaps some form of the Codex Astartes could easily have been written by him. There is to many actions taken by the Emperor that look like "Would not" instead of "Could not". For all we really know the Emperor never truely attempted a fix for the flesh change. Instead waiting to see how Magnus would handle it. Imagine if the Emperor's fix for the flesh change would have made the Thousand Sons 100% psychically inempt. How would Magnus have handled a Legion so far removed from himself. I'm sure he could have handled it fine but as it is. That fix would have changed the character of the legion so much that they would look nothing alike. On a side note I still think the Emperor handled finding Angron much better. If he deployed with the legions in support of his sons last stand instead of just snatching him from the surface. Not only would it have been easier for him to bond with his own legion having seen them in battle and having some of his eaters of cities inducted into their ranks but also with any of his brothers who had deployed in his defence. On the topic of Magnus vs Erebus the arch traitor had a whole cabal of davinites and the fact the cyclops was the other side of the Imperium. Yes, perhaps he could stand toe to toe with Magnus for a while but I can only see it ending one way... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3724272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just fix the Flesh Change? Even the Emperor couldn't do that, or he would have done so when his XV legion started turning into piles of tentacle and goop in power armor before they found Magnus. The Thousand Sons exist only at the sufferance of the Changer of Ways...even if Magnus had surrendered to the Wolves and brought them to the loyalists, they would only be around until Tzeencht pulled the trigger on their condition. And the idea of Magnus detecting the Warp dabbling of the Word Bearers....this is a Primarch who couldn't even figure out the Tutelary Spirits his Legion was binding to itself did not have their best interests at heart. Him spotting corruption in another Legion is as likely as Angron penning the Codex Astartes. Ahhhh. Common misconception, Wade. The Emperor could have indeed fixed it. But in his most benevolent and austere wisdom he left the problem to Magnus. A test of fai..worthiness, if you will. A test Magnus passed. Sort of. Doesn't make sense? Well he works in mysterious ways and whatnot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3726337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Magnus being able to 'solve' the problem with the 1k Sons' geneseed really should have raised an alarm with the Emperor. In Deliverance Lost, Corax is able to get his geneseed project working because he has access to the source material and an information dump from the Emperor. Magnus is able to fix the Sons' issue (an issue the Emperor himself hadn't been able to solve) seemingly through I dunno, logical deductions from first principals and some elbow grease, at least as far as anyone who isn't Magnus would be able to figure. The lack of any followup by the Emperor on this is very strange. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3726998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The lack of any followup by the Emperor on this is very strange. I am pretty sure his track record points toward the exact opposite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3727034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Strange, but not out of character? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3727207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Strange, but not out of character? Consider what he did with Angron, the Night Haunter and the Aurelian. There serious red flags there too and he didn't bother. As long as they kinda, somewhat, perhaps, probably not do what they were told it was "fine". Boys will be boys. He doesn't exactly have a good track record of looking deeper than his "I found you my son" speach and leaving them to their own devices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3727258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonerhino Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Just fix the Flesh Change? Even the Emperor couldn't do that, or he would have done so when his XV legion started turning into piles of tentacle and goop in power armor before they found Magnus. The Thousand Sons exist only at the sufferance of the Changer of Ways...even if Magnus had surrendered to the Wolves and brought them to the loyalists, they would only be around until Tzeencht pulled the trigger on their condition. And the idea of Magnus detecting the Warp dabbling of the Word Bearers....this is a Primarch who couldn't even figure out the Tutelary Spirits his Legion was binding to itself did not have their best interests at heart. Him spotting corruption in another Legion is as likely as Angron penning the Codex Astartes. Ahhhh. Common misconception, Wade. The Emperor could have indeed fixed it. But in his most benevolent and austere wisdom he left the problem to Magnus. A test of fai..worthiness, if you will. A test Magnus passed. Sort of. Doesn't make sense? Well he works in mysterious ways and whatnot. Yes because it makes so much more sence for the most powerfull psyker ever; who also just happens to be the one who went into the warp and tricked the Chaos gods to get the information nessassary to create the Primarchs; who also just happens to be the top genetic manipulator of the human race. Could not fix the problem and instead handed it off to his son that could not match him in any way because of "Reasons". That sounds so much better then "He never even tryed to fix the problem". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3727494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I think Augustus was being sarcastic... and while the answer hasnt been said, maybe the leader of a galaxy wide and expanding empire doesnt have the time to halt the conquering of said galaxy in order to fix a something broken with he has 17 other tools to work with, and passed the problem (called delegation or so Im told) to a seemingly capable subordinate. more likely its simply BL authors trying to force logic in age old stories of a single page or three, and cant answer every question that the seriously lacking older material provided. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3727504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleshTearer5000 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Magnus stays loyal means that the Horus heresy ends in two years tops. Magnus would easily be Horus most dangerous opponent. Yes. The incredible combat prowess he displayed in wrapping his spine around the Wolf King's knee would no doubt have Horus quaking in his pauldrons. I was thinking this also, but not so perfectly worded :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292696-what-if-magnus-had-remained-loyal/page/2/#findComment-3727732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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