Adeptus Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It's a shame the NDK is hideous. If I could convert one to look better I'd probably field one. Paladins are plenty threatening so having a NDK would be a good compliment to draw some fire off too. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dreamforge-Games-Iron-Core-Mini-15mm-Leviathan-Crusader-Box-MINT-/360961519207?pt=Games_US&hash=item540afbae67 Stands pretty much exactly the same height as a dreadknight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3726545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It does?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3726576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It's a lot bulkier though, think Knight-Titan sized. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3726669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It's a lot bulkier though, think Knight-Titan sized. Nah, it's much smaller than a knight titan. Just make sure you get the 15mm one. The 28mm one is about the size of a Warhound Titan! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3726676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozshock Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 i think the Draigo deathstar lists are still quite unplayable atm...you would HAVE to roll invis to make them survive 2-3 turns... how many armies dont have ample dice or high str / high AP weapons? and they fit them usually into their normal tourny lists...sure the pallystar might work well if you roll well in the psychic powers charts, but can you do that every game? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3726705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 I think the Leviathan Crusader is definitely a good replacement forr the NDK, one that I won't mind fielding. It's definitely way better looking. Is the 15mm or the 28mm one closer to the NDK size? i think the Draigo deathstar lists are still quite unplayable atm...you would HAVE to roll invis to make them survive 2-3 turns... how many armies dont have ample dice or high str / high AP weapons? and they fit them usually into their normal tourny lists...sure the pallystar might work well if you roll well in the psychic powers charts, but can you do that every game? Well., there's that too. I just lost a game to an Iyandon list full of Wraithlords, Wraithseers and other trickery. I've just always liked terminators and Paladins so I'm trying to find ways for the Draigowing to wokr that doesn't involve Solodin action. And not being to take FNP against ID stings like HELLLLLL I think the competitive lists now would be to take 3NDKs, 3 Stormravens and load up on Purifiers and essentially gunline up and smack around with the NDKs. Could be fun but I've a penchant for Terminators. It's a shame that AP2 or S10 is everywhere now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I think the Leviathan Crusader is definitely a good replacement forr the NDK, one that I won't mind fielding. It's definitely way better looking. Is the 15mm or the 28mm one closer to the NDK size? You want the 15mm one. The 28mm one is about the size of a Warhound! I really don't know what to do about Paladins. With T5 they'd be kick ass, against small arms. But they're already pretty kick-ass against small arms, and T5 would make precisely zero difference against the things that really hurt Terminators, which is AP1 or 2 weapons, which tend to be S7 or higher. If they had Sanctuary as a stock power, that might help. Or if they could assault out of Deepstrike, that would be good. I balk at the idea of giving standard equipment (in this case TDA) different abilities. I mean, a 1+ save (so they could still save on a 2+ against anything AP2 or more) would be cool, but why is Paladin TDA so much better than everyone elses? A 4++ save instead of the 5++ would also be good but again, why the better save? I suppose they could all come with Iron Halo's standard? Maybe that's what those little books on their heads are for? A 4++ with Sanctuary would be a 3++ and a 2++ in combat. That's pretty damn handy, and would just about justify their cost at 55+ points per model. I'd consider taking them with 2 wounds, a 3++ save and FNP. Maybe you could make it a one-turn thing, or make them forgo shooting in order to boost their save? I dunno, I'm just rambling here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 You want the 15mm one. The 28mm one is about the size of a Warhound! Converting the Heavy Incinerator, Titansword (or Fist) and the Teleporter would be a bitch though. At least the model would look good. I really don't know what to do about Paladins. With T5 they'd be kick ass, against small arms. But they're already pretty kick-ass against small arms, and T5 would make precisely zero difference against the things that really hurt Terminators, which is AP1 or 2 weapons, which tend to be S7 or higher. If they had Sanctuary as a stock power, that might help. Or if they could assault out of Deepstrike, that would be good. I balk at the idea of giving standard equipment (in this case TDA) different abilities. I mean, a 1+ save (so they could still save on a 2+ against anything AP2 or more) would be cool, but why is Paladin TDA so much better than everyone elses? A 4++ save instead of the 5++ would also be good but again, why the better save? I suppose they could all come with Iron Halo's standard? Maybe that's what those little books on their heads are for? A 4++ with Sanctuary would be a 3++ and a 2++ in combat. That's pretty damn handy, and would just about justify their cost at 55+ points per model. I'd consider taking them with 2 wounds, a 3++ save and FNP. Maybe you could make it a one-turn thing, or make them forgo shooting in order to boost their save? I dunno, I'm just rambling here. They're not even T5, just T4. All they've got is 2 Wounds and more attacks. The Assault out of Deep strike would be cool or any way to buff their saves. I got eaten alive by the S10 Ap1 guns but that's expected for Terminators in general. But I still love them so I'll still play them and hopefully find a way to make them work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 You want the 15mm one. The 28mm one is about the size of a Warhound! Converting the Heavy Incinerator, Titansword (or Fist) and the Teleporter would be a bitch though. At least the model would look good. I don't plan on converting most of the stuff. I'm going to claim that the Doomfist is just them getting clubbed with the gun, I'm going to keep the sword the model comes with, and I'm going to replace it's "assault cannon" with a Sentinel Heavy Flamer, converted to fit. They're not even T5, just T4. All they've got is 2 Wounds and more attacks. The Assault out of Deep strike would be cool or any way to buff their saves. I got eaten alive by the S10 Ap1 guns but that's expected for Terminators in general. But I still love them so I'll still play them and hopefully find a way to make them work. Oh, I know. I was just saying that, for their cost, they need a boost. Upping their Toughness to 5 was one of the first things that popped into my head but honestly I think a 4++ save would be the best option for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Oh, I know. I was just saying that, for their cost, they need a boost. Upping their Toughness to 5 was one of the first things that popped into my head but honestly I think a 4++ save would be the best option for them. T5 would be enough I think. They can up their invul saves with psychic powers (not reliably but I'm fine with that). It's most the fact that for 2W, they can get ID'ed :/ But that being said, the firepower they bring to bear eats a lot of things alive. And they're a unit blender in close combat. I was thinking just give them a CC boost so they can reliably get into close combat and blenderize units. don't plan on converting most of the stuff. I'm going to claim that the Doomfist is just them getting clubbed with the gun, I'm going to keep the sword the model comes with, and I'm going to replace it's "assault cannon" with a Sentinel Heavy Flamer, converted to fit. Ain't the Heavy Flamer kinda small? Maybe the Flamestorm cannon from FW would be apt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Ain't that flamer rather small? Maybe the flamestorm cannon from FW would be apit. Well, considering that puny little thing on the underside of a Dreadnaughts fist can count as a heavy flamer, I think the sentinel one should do ok. I don't know, I guess I'll have a better idea of what will suit when I get the parts in my hands Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I really don't know what to do about Paladins. With T5 they'd be kick ass, against small arms. But they're already pretty kick-ass against small arms, and T5 would make precisely zero difference against the things that really hurt Terminators, which is AP1 or 2 weapons, which tend to be S7 or higher. Stops them being IDed by Krak/Autocannons when they fail a TDA armour save. Basically. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Stops them being IDed by Krak/Autocannons when they fail a TDA armour save. Basically. T4 gets ID'ed by Krak but not autocannons at S7. T5 still wouldn't protect from S10 at all (The Emperor sure doesn't protect as much as he should) but it would mean that S8 stuff would be nullified. I'm not sure how many S10 pie plates or shooting there is but I think it would be alright Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 GK Autos. ;) Yeah, Vinidators, Hammerhand Thunderhammers and Lysander/Arjac will still ID them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3728944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I think an allied Psyker with the Endurance power from Biomancy would be a tremendous force multiplier for Paladins. FNP(4+) doubles their survivability against not AP2/1 weapons, preventing enemies from torrenting them to death, and also makes them significantly more survivable against S7 and below AP2/1 weapons (like the ubiquitous Plasma and Grav weapons). Perhaps most importantly, it gives them Eternal Warrior, meaning they will always get full use of their 2W, So S8/9/10 weapons, force weapons, D-weapon etc cannot kill a 55 point model with a single unsaved wound. Combine this with their already very good firepower (Psycannons and Psybolt SBs) and close combat ability (S6 I6 Halberds or S10 AP2 Hammers, all with 3 attacks base using a BHB) and their only real weakness is mobility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3729638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 I think an allied Psyker with the Endurance power from Biomancy would be a tremendous force multiplier for Paladins. FNP(4+) doubles their survivability against not AP2/1 weapons, preventing enemies from torrenting them to death, and also makes them significantly more survivable against S7 and below AP2/1 weapons (like the ubiquitous Plasma and Grav weapons). Perhaps most importantly, it gives them Eternal Warrior, meaning they will always get full use of their 2W, So S8/9/10 weapons, force weapons, D-weapon etc cannot kill a 55 point model with a single unsaved wound. Combine this with their already very good firepower (Psycannons and Psybolt SBs) and close combat ability (S6 I6 Halberds or S10 AP2 Hammers, all with 3 attacks base using a BHB) and their only real weakness is mobility. Normally, I'm not one to ally in other armies but you make a convincing argument.. Eternal Warrior would make them the walking beat on legs they're supposed to be. Though I'm not sure which armies get access to Biomancy Essentially, I will have to pray for Invisibility or Endurance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3729678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Which army would be ideal to ally in a psyker with Biomancy? I know the Space Wolves and Blood Angels get Biomancy, and so does the Guard. And what units should be dropped to fit this in? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3730711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Tigurius. If you have a psychic need that GKs can't fill, he's the guy you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3730734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Tigurius. If you have a psychic need that GKs can't fill, he's the guy you want. Tigurius is expensive points cost wise though. And I have to take at least one troop. Maybe a 5man Scout with ML&Flakk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3730826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I really like the sound of wolves and knights fighting together, and it's fluffy :-P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3731355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 I really like the sound of wolves and knights fighting together, and it's fluffy :- Don't the Wolves hate the Knights? or do I have the fluff mixed up. Something about a Guard regiment getting executed because they helped fight Chaos? I would play the wolves if they had a great psyker....but sadly the boys in blue of Rowboat Girlyman have the best psyker because they're the poster boys. But Njal Stormcaller has pretty sweet rules too Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3731608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Yeah, the wolves hate the knights. I think jbat360 was being facetious Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3731629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Saying that the "Wolves hate the Knights" is a huge overstatement, in my opinion. In the fluff that I'm aware of, they've really only had one significant disagreement in ~10,000 years, and that was the plan for the clean-up following one of the Wars for Armageddon (3rd?). Even then, the disagreement was largely with the Inquisition more so than the Knights, specifically, as the Knights were carrying out their responsibility in accordance with Inquisitorial direction. Don't forget that although the Wolves can be quick to anger, they can also be quick to forgive and forget. I'm not aware of any codex material that indicates a standing feud between the two, and certainly not "hatred." If anything, the Wolves are much more wary of the Ecclesiarchy than the Inquisition, as that organization, under the leadership of Vandire, actually attacked Fenris and the Fang, and held it under siege - threatening the very existence of the Chapter, and indeed, the Imperium itself. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3731635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 Now that I've been tabled again by another cheese list (IG tanks everywhere), I really have to make major changes to my army list. What is a "good" Draigowing list? I'm not looking for anything competitive, just something that can hold it's own. Maybe semi-competitive. Without acolytes preferably, just pure knights and inquisitors. I'm pretty adamant about GK Termies because I own 20 of then and I personably think paladins are awesome? Would allying in Dark Angels for Belial delivery system of Land raiders work? Or with Tigurius for psychic powers galore. I've heard Necrons do well with Draigowing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3731801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I do ok with paladins - draigo, prescience inq, 10 x pallies (4 psycannons, staff), 10 x grey knights (2 psycannons), 10 interceptors (hammer, 2 psycannons). I usually combat squad everything. I'm 6 from 7 in 7th ed games. On topic though, I think if pallies (and grand masters) got eternal warrior they would be worth their points. Thats the only thing I would fix. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/2/#findComment-3731823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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