Is the Draigowing dead?

[cyborgcommunist]

Might be my local meta, they're all rather cheesy in nature.

 

I run about the same, except with less bodies because I have an Imperial Knight. Do you have vehicles?

 

I might run 5 man Strikes just to get more Psybacks in.

[jeffersonian000]

I've tried a modified Shunt list with Draigo attached to Mordrak+Ghosts, 3 Solodins, 2 DKs, and 2 full squads of Interceptors. Every but the HQ Bomb is super scoring thanks to 2 TGS rolls. Its fast, with 6 Jump/Shunt units bouncing across the table, the Mordrak Alpha Bomb to pull attention turn 1, and DS'ing Solodins to secure objects cleared by the Shunters.

 

Worked at least once. : )

 

We'll see if it can work more than once.

 

And yes, I ignore flyers with this list.

 

SJ

[cyborgcommunist]

I think the idea behind Draigowing is to ignore fliers too unless you got Psyflemen Dreads. I dunno, I'm really sold on the Draigowing but I've heard that Mordrak can do interesting things too. A full shunt list definitely seems more competitive than the Scout footslogging that is the Draigowing, though is there a reason to bring Draigo with Mordrak? And can Draigo use Mordrak's rule of not scattering with DS'ing?

[Ozshock]

the one thing i get cross with all the time is the bloody meganobz...

 

their version of the paladin is a Nob in stolen terminator armour go figure

they dont have an invul of any kind...sure...but at 2 wounds, 3 attacks base, T4 St4, furious charge, 'ere we go (not sure on this one), power klaw, twin linked shoota and all at 40 points...not to mention mob rule...

 

sure they are only BS2 (HAHA orcs lol) but they get a massive 4 ATTACKS ON THE CHARGE!!! free Klaws and TL shootas...they eat paladins for lunch

 

that extra 15 points we pay doesnt give us a whole lot of wiggle room...we get 2 attacks, no fearless of any kind unledd Draigo is in, sure we can take Psycannons (20 POINTS EACH...making him 75 points...) TL anything costs us 5 points and its only 1 roll...FNP 5+ costs us an apothecary at 130 points...and lose a Storm bolter...for +1 attack (or 2 depends on your ruling) its another 5 points...or a banner for 25 points which isnt exactly +1 attack cause you lose the power weapon on the banner...you never get 5 Daemon Hammers in a box so you almost never see a full squad of them...

 

halberds are ok, giving I6 to the wearer...+1 invul is good in CC but its only CC...+1 (or 2) attacks is 5 points more...twin linked 5 points more (only 1shot)...apothecary for FNP 5+ is 75 points more...to me they arent worth it...and they get IDed by most of the wepaons that people sue to kill anything with a 2+ armour save

 

to make them useful in any given situation you need to pour the points into them...and they cost far too much already for what they do

 

2 Heavy weapons is 150 points...giving you 8 str7 rending shots at 24"...i would rather have a Psifledred...and the rest of what the unit can do can be covered by using normal terminators anyway...and far cheaper...

 

sry guys but im a paladin hater since a squad Crashed and burned in a SRaven...IDed by the crash...DStrike into cover (useless anyway cause they have a 5+) and getting nuked by a str10 pie plate...and then pooring plenty of Str8 shots into them...any failed one is a dead paladin

[cyborgcommunist]

Pallies have good shooting though, and good combat with Force weapons to ID anything. Granted yes, they're overpriced for what they bring but I love terminators so it's k. I'm just gonna try to get them to work because a Draigowing can tank so many shots and can wreck total havoc

[Grand Master Caloth]

I run a GM, ML3 Lib, 2 full strike squads, a psydread, raven, and a full pali squad (4 psycannon and apothecary). CS the palis, the cannons and apothecary go with the lib, the others roll with the GM. Each 5 has three hammers and two halberds, a staff on the lib, and hammer on gm. The cannon squad chews up whatever it shoots at (even flyers)

[Selleck]

I think the idea behind Draigowing is to ignore fliers too unless you got Psyflemen Dreads. I dunno, I'm really sold on the Draigowing but I've heard that Mordrak can do interesting things too. A full shunt list definitely seems more competitive than the Scout footslogging that is the Draigowing, though is there a reason to bring Draigo with Mordrak? And can Draigo use Mordrak's rule of not scattering with DS'ing?

You can attach Draigo to Mordrak for the Über Bomb! ;-)

[cyborgcommunist]

You can attach Draigo to Mordrak for the Über Bomb! ;-) 

 

Yep, I could, but the Paladins can't tag along for the ride sadly plus they'll all be clumped up real nice. I'm not too much a fan of deep-striking. Nothing like losing a Draigowing to mishaps

 

I run a GM, ML3 Lib, 2 full strike squads, a psydread, raven, and a full pali squad (4 psycannon and apothecary). CS the palis, the cannons and apothecary go with the lib, the others roll with the GM. Each 5 has three hammers and two halberds, a staff on the lib, and hammer on gm. The cannon squad chews up whatever it shoots at (even flyers) 

 

That's what I'm trying now. I'm combat squadding the whole army to get more versatility. The Draigowing as 2 blobs is still pretty effective. It lost some of it's flair as a 10 man deathstar but it works out better

[Selleck]

 

 

 

You can attach Draigo to Mordrak for the Über Bomb! ;-)

 

Yep, I could, but the Paladins can't tag along for the ride sadly plus they'll all be clumped up real nice. I'm not too much a fan of deep-striking. Nothing like losing a Draigowing to mishaps

Mordrak deepstrike without scatter. Therefore no mishaps.

[Quozzo]

 

 

 

You can attach Draigo to Mordrak for the Über Bomb! ;-)

Yep, I could, but the Paladins can't tag along for the ride sadly plus they'll all be clumped up real nice. I'm not too much a fan of deep-striking. Nothing like losing a Draigowing to mishaps

Mordrak deepstrike without scatter. Therefore no mishaps.

 

Unless you're playing against Stevie Wonder.

[Valerian]

 

 

 

You can attach Draigo to Mordrak for the Über Bomb! ;-)

Yep, I could, but the Paladins can't tag along for the ride sadly plus they'll all be clumped up real nice. I'm not too much a fan of deep-striking. Nothing like losing a Draigowing to mishaps

Mordrak deepstrike without scatter. Therefore no mishaps.

 

 

He just said that Mordrak can't attach to Paladins, so yes, even with Mordrak in your army, potential Mishaps are a risk.

[cyborgcommunist]

From the games I've played so far in 7th, in convinced that while the Draigowing isn't dead, it's certainly in a coma. As much as I love my Paladins, I might have to call them in and run them as normal GKT.

 

They, however, work really well in Maelstrom of War. Paladins can lay a lot of firepower onto the fast units people field in Maelstrom and they stubbornly hold any objective you sit them on. But they are far too expensive and come in too few numbers. Still a fun list, but I have lost all the 7th ed games I played with them.

 

The saving grace has mostly been Invisibility. If I didn't go first and couldn't cast Invisibility on either the whole blob or the combat squadded blob Draigo is in, I might as well concede as the Draigowing eats bullets (they are still unbelievably good tanks though). But in Relic they can still win (trying to kill 10 of them before they can get the relic close to my edge is pretty damned hard).

 

I'm now considering dropping the whole wing and switching to 4 solodins and bulking up on Putifiers. I managed to roll Cleansing Flame on Draigo and it's awesome sauce. Vortex of Doom is amazing too, assuming that you're lucky enough for it to not land on your units

[Ozshock]

purifiers in rhino's dude...bane to any horde army...combat squad them so they have to only charge half the squad...cleanse them next turn as well :)

 

but imo you cant just spam one unit anymore...they arent good enough for that, so you will have to back them up with something

[VVolf]

I'm experimenting with FW's Librarian Loth of the Red Scorpions. He can choose his 3 psychic powers from biomancy, telepathy or telekinesis and can spend a warp charge for a 2+ invun.

 

Toying with invis or biomancy. Could even give them fleet. Assuming noone minds him not being updated since 6th. Looking at ~230 ish points with the compulsory troops though.

[Ozshock]

thats pretty cheap actually

[cyborgcommunist]

purifiers in rhino's dude...bane to any horde army...combat squad them so they have to only charge half the squad...cleanse them next turn as well

but imo you cant just spam one unit anymore...they arent good enough for that, so you will have to back them up with something

My list doesn't spam Paladins, I've got 10 supported by 10 Interceptors and Psyflemen. But it's mostly the fact that it's a giant blob that can shoot well, but doesn't have as much gun as 3 blobs of Strikes for roughly the same points cost, though 10 Paladins take forever to die. So I end up with a 11 man deathstar that is generally easy to avoid since their main mode of murder is in close combat where they curb-stomp everything, though they can shoot decently well.

I'm actually missing the Might of Titan psychic spell a lot, the extra D6 for Vehicle Penetration and the +1 strength was really good.

I was intending to drop 10 Paladins and that can let me field maybe 20 Purifiers in Rhinos? That's 8 Psycannons compared to 4 and they're still good in close combat. Only thing is that they're not relentless but that's fine since I have to fire in Assault mode if I want to charge.

I'm experimenting with FW's Librarian Loth of the Red Scorpions. He can choose his 3 psychic powers from biomancy, telepathy or telekinesis and can spend a warp charge for a 2+ invun.

Toying with invis or biomancy. Could even give them fleet. Assuming noone minds him not being updated since 6th. Looking at ~230 ish points with the compulsory troops though.

Sounds good. I'm currently running Tigurius to fish for Invisibility but if this guy can choose then Endurance + Invisibility means the Deathstar never dies. Sadly, Warp Speed only applies Fleet to Librarian Loth and the whole squad needs Fleet to benefit from it. Maybe Levitation to aid their mobility.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eh, Loth is broken as hell though. He makes everything good lol. 

 

The thing is, without 'Invis' (either because you didn't roll it, or because the enemy threw all their dispel at it), Paladins just die too easily. Terminators are already overpriced, paying Razorback base prices for each guy is painful as hell and forces you into Draigostar (taking only a few Paladins is worse). 

 

When GW stop creating abominations like the Riptide, maybe multi-wound infantry that isn't T5 will be good. 

[cyborgcommunist]

 

Eh, Loth is broken as hell though. He makes everything good lol. 

 

The thing is, without 'Invis' (either because you didn't roll it, or because the enemy threw all their dispel at it), Paladins just die too easily. Terminators are already overpriced, paying Razorback base prices for each guy is painful as hell and forces you into Draigostar (taking only a few Paladins is worse). 

 

When GW stop creating abominations like the Riptide, maybe multi-wound infantry that isn't T5 will be good. 

This is exactly my experience playing a deathstar in 7th ed. Get invisibility or die.

 

IMHO, 55 points for Paladins is pretty insane as is 40 points for GKT. Because Strikes and Purifiers are 4 points apart, maybe GKT and Paladins can be the same, where Paladins are just blinged up versions of the normal GKT. Or make them T5, that'll help. 

 

I'm fine (for now) with the likes of Riptides but yes, getting ID'ed to death by almost everything makes having 2 wounds pointless. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Terminators should really be 30pts base, across all the Marine books. Its absurd you pay almost triple the cost of a basic Tac Marine for a slightly better armoured one (that invul almost never matters). Stormhammers are worth it because of the storm shield+hammer combo, not because of the guy underneath it. 

 

Purifiers are really the nail in the coffin for our GKT's. They bring more wounds, psycannon and attacks, whilst being much cheaper even for a full squad, plus 'Cleansing Flame', 'Fearless'...the lack of Deepstrike barely matters these days either. Plus they fit inside transports just fine, whereas TDA cuts you down to combat squads at best. 

 

T5 would be a bit excessive. I'd just give them Eternal Warrior ;)

[cyborgcommunist]

Eternal Warrior would be sweet, though people will whine about it. 40 points for a Paladin seems fair, considering that they do bring to the table, with gear and all. Maybe if they got Holocaust back or something similar

[Valerian]

Terminators should really be 30pts base, across all the Marine books. Its absurd you pay almost triple the cost of a basic Tac Marine for a slightly better armoured one (that invul almost never used).

Although I don't disagree that most Terminators are overpriced, I must point out that it isn't just the better Armour that they get over a Tac Marine, they get a Veteran's stat-line, ability to Deep Strike, Relentless, and most importantly, the Power Weapon (usually Fist, but various Nemesis weapons in the Grey Knights' case). Although the value doesn't usually pan out on the tabletop, a designer looks at all of these benefits and thinks the 40 ppm is about right.

 

Space Wolves basic TDA Wolf Guard are well-priced at just 33 ppm, but pay exorbitant upgrade costs compared to others.

 

They really could use an adjustment, but I doubt we'll see it any time soon.

[cyborgcommunist]

 

 

Although I don't disagree that most Terminators are overpriced, I must point out that it isn't just the better Armour that they get over a Tac Marine, they get a Veteran's stat-line, ability to Deep Strike, Relentless, and most importantly, the Power Weapon (usually Fist, but various Nemesis weapons in the Grey Knights' case). Although the value doesn't usually pan out on the tabletop, a designer looks at all of these benefits and thinks the 40 ppm is about right.

 

Space Wolves basic TDA Wolf Guard are well-priced at just 33 ppm, but pay exorbitant upgrade costs compared to others.

 

They really could use an adjustment, but I doubt we'll see it any time soon. 

Fair point indeed about the power weapon. Maybe it's just because that now, Terminators aren't gonna do well with all the high strength, low AP shooting. I would think that maybe 35 points per Terminator seems fair.

 

I know that they need to make the Apothecary cheaper for Paladins anyway. And I find it odd that the GKT take Psycannons for 25 points and Paladins for 20. I know that Relentless Terminators taking Psycannons should bump up the price, but doubling it from 10 points for the normal PAGK seems odd, espcially ewhy the normal GKT have to pay more.

[Ozshock]

the psyacnnon cost should be the same throught the whole book...why is it cheaper for purifiers? why is it more expensive for Paladins?

 

you can say that a terminator is a purifier in terminator armour...ill break that down for you

 

WS - 4/5 for paladins - only means hitting on 3's against most other infantry...but not MC's or other IC's it will be 4's

BS - 4 for both - no change

Str - 4 for both - no change

T - 4 for both - no change

W - 1/2 for pala  - anything str7 and less needs to wound twice to kill a paladin, strong if you look at it this way, but not when the oppoent will use S8 against them

I - 4 for both - Halberds make both Init6, Hammers make both Init1

A - 2 base for both

Ld - 9 - same

Sv - 3+/2+ - AP3 weaponry will be shrugged off far more easily...but weight of dice will still kill a paladin for every 2 purifiers

paladins also get a 5++ - AP2 is generally S8 or higher...S7 for plasma which is not great against paladins due to double wounds, so you will fail 2 in 3 hits with S8 AP2...killing 2 palaidns outright

PURIFIERS ARE FEARLESS - makes more of a deal than you might think...though if paladins are caught in a sweeping advance they just turn around and fight...and sometimes it is better to run, like in the opponents assault phase...

 

i think the costs are about even when you look at it this way...relentless, 2+/5++, free halberd/hammer upgrade(purifiers only pay 2pts/5pts anyway, pretty cheap), the extra WS and wound.

but when you start comparing them to other units in the game...those that give MANY more shooting, better special rules in combat, and a far cheaper cost, paladins and GKT end up on the losing end of any argument about efficiency

[Grand Master Caloth]

At least paladins and terms get an invul

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Although I don't disagree that most Terminators are overpriced, I must point out that it isn't just the better Armour that they get over a Tac Marine, they get a Veteran's stat-line, ability to Deep Strike, Relentless, and most importantly, the Power Weapon (usually Fist, but various Nemesis weapons in the Grey Knights' case). Although the value doesn't usually pan out on the tabletop, a designer looks at all of these benefits and thinks the 40 ppm is about right.

 

Melee weapons rarely matter in 40k anymore, they're more the finishing blow than the main game, The main game is shooting, and its simply a sad fact that Terminators do not bring enough firepower to justify their price. The Veteran statline is again only really relevant for hacking things to death. 

Space Wolves basic TDA Wolf Guard are well-priced at just 33 ppm, but pay exorbitant upgrade costs compared to others.

 

Probably next to get updated. We shall see how GW handle that oddity. 

 

At least paladins and terms get an invul 

 

 

Yeah, but as others have pointed out, almost all AP2 is S7+, so your T4 never matters. 5+ is very unreliable, its functionally worse than cover saves in a lot of situations. And its pretty worthless in melee if they ignore your armour save.