Grand Master Caloth Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Yea well at least it is something. The way you talk, might as well not use the save at all. No thanks, if I can have a chance to save, I consider it better than simply removing the model. Plus your argument of weapon str needs to be 8+. Str7 only causes a wound on palis Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Loads of people complaining about terminators (including me), there is even a thread about it on here. Literally the only way to make them more viable is to make them around 30pts a model, maybe 35 for us as we get grenades and powers. Various armies get cheap readily and easily available ap2 weapons, so we need cheap ap2 protection to balance it out. And I know psycannon are more expensive for terminators because of relentless, but to make them 150% more expensive is just stupid, they should be no more than double the points (20pts) , as they give twice the shooting on the move (relentless), but make no difference while stationary. So 15pts would be perfect as you're paying nearly twice as much for the terminator model itself already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 I agree with all of y'all. Y'all all have fair points. I think the subject of Terminators is just touchy. They don't bring as much as their points-cost but they have general better than normal saves and such. No idea how GW intends to save them. Especially Paladins, as the elite Terminators, who are already the elite of the marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Well, we see what GW does or does not do with out Termies in a few months, when our 7th Ed codex comes out. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Loads of people complaining about terminators (including me), there is even a thread about it on here. Literally the only way to make them more viable is to make them around 30pts a model, maybe 35 for us as we get grenades and powers. Various armies get cheap readily and easily available ap2 weapons, so we need cheap ap2 protection to balance it out. And I know psycannon are more expensive for terminators because of relentless, but to make them 150% more expensive is just stupid, they should be no more than double the points (20pts) , as they give twice the shooting on the move (relentless), but make no difference while stationary. So 15pts would be perfect as you're paying nearly twice as much for the terminator model itself already. Isn't double the points only 100% more expensive? which would be 2x more expensive. Anyway what I was going to say is that I disagree that psycannons for terminators should only be double as they're double the shots, as terminators can also wield a melee weapon and a special weapon, making terminators much better all round than PAGK which should be more than double the cost of a psycannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Yeah.. And they're 10pts for PA and 25pts for a terminator, so 150% more lol I was talking about terminators in general :-P But I actually agree with the dual welding, I didn't think of that. But I still think psycannons should be cheaper Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Lol. You said 150% and double in the same sentence so I got all confused. It doesnt make much apparently :p Psycannons are currently the best weapon we have, if you're still taking them over incinerators and psilencers then they need a points increase! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3746831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozshock Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 incinerators and psilencers haver their own niche...at VERY close range...or against demons...a point increase for psycans is not called for >.> lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3747231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Psilencers on terminators give 6 shots each and are S4 against everything. That's the equivalent to upgrading a stormbolter to become 3 storm bolters. Against deamons they're still strength 4 but wound on a 4+ to any that would otherwise be more. They're still effective at a lot of things that the psycannon is not, but due to the psycannon's versatility the psilencer gets left behind, even more so on PAGK. I wouldn't say the psilencer has a niche, it just isn't as good as the psycannon due to the psycannons versatility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3747522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 incinerators and psilencers haver their own niche...at VERY close range...or against demons...a point increase for psycans is not called for >.> lol Incinerators are superior on Interceptors and Dreadknights, where they're fast enough to get into range and they're both assault units who won't be shooting much. You still won't have a whole pile of incinerator, but its a scary template weapon to most things not in 3+ or 2+ armour. Psilencers are pure garbage, and are functionally worse than psycannons at killing Daemons. The extra shots you get are mitigated by the S4 and the 4+ to wound Daemons doesn't matter when psycannon wounds all their infantry on 2's, their MC's on 3's and GUO's on 4's anyway (plus Rending for killing Soulgrinders). Psycannons belong on shooty squads you're not going to move much. Purifiers are a perfect fit, as they also pack the melee capacity to murder most things your opponent would use to jam them up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3747627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 I was under the impression that people charge with Purifiers. They do make a good gun line too with 2 psycannons per 5. Psilencers are just odd. They're Heavy6, not assault and they don't do as much as Psycannons or Incinerators. Maybe GK can do with a proper raged anti-tank weapon though and not just rely on the Psycannon's Rending. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 They should allow dreadnoughts to take heavy psycannons! I think that would be pretty coolio And using purifiers as a gun line works well, but it's such a waste of their extra attack, cheaper cc weapons, psychic power and fearless. Psycannons should be cheapest for purgation squads, but they're not which is stupid! And psilencers are a complete waste! Might work well on a dreadknight for overwatch... But why you'd want this I don't know haha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I was under the impression that people charge with Purifiers. They do make a good gun line too with 2 psycannons per 5. Why? You're too slow to get the charge on most things (without a Raven), and you get 2 psycannon per 5, which only Paladins and Purgators can match (the former is massively overpriced and pops to Tides very easily, the latter doesn't even have Astral Aim anymore and costs the same for a 10-man unit due to their psycannon being overpriced). I've been running 1-2 quad psycannon Purifier squads in my lists since 5th, haven't looked back once. Psilencers are just odd. They're Heavy6, not assault and they don't do as much as Psycannons or Incinerators. Maybe GK can do with a proper raged anti-tank weapon though and not just rely on the Psycannon's Rending. Ward got told to make another 'special weapon' choice for us. So he made psycannons king of anti-everything, incinerators king of anti-chaff, and psilencers king of...being situationally medicore and still worse than psycannon. Yay. If it forced the enemy to re-roll invuls...or wounded Daemons on a 2+....or something...I mean we'd care. But its just a Heavy 6 storm bolter basically. They should allow dreadnoughts to take heavy psycannons! I think that would be pretty coolio Dunno if we'd take them though. 24" range and Rending is kinda chancy, you'd be taking the AC+psybolts combo over it (more shots against lone model targets) And using purifiers as a gun line works well, but it's such a waste of their extra attack, cheaper cc weapons, psychic power and fearless. No its not. The traditional way to shut down a mid-field shooting unit like Tacticals is to flood them with chaff, or eat them with a dedicated melee unit. Purifiers smack chaff down and unless you're in 2+ armour you won't survive a charge into them, let alone if you fail and get counter-charged in the Knight players turn. Psycannons should be cheapest for purgation squads, but they're not which is stupid! Not to mention no more 'Astral Aim', which was the only thing left making them vaguely useful. Now you have zero reason to take them over Purifiers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This was supposed to be about the draigo-wing but nevermind >.> Purifiers are the best of both worlds, able to take two psycannons and two attacks in melee means no matter what they face they can (usually) beat it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 They are very similar in stats and point costs as oblits/mutilators depending on upgrades. You may want to consider running them in units of three as problem solvers, Psybolt ammo, 2x hammer, 1x halberd sounds like it might work. Mastercraft as you see fit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This was supposed to be about the draigo-wing but nevermind >.> Welcome to the nature of the interweb and the ever evolving debate Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This was supposed to be about the draigo-wing but nevermind >.> Hey I still mentioned Paladins in my post ;) still on-topic. I'm explaining why Paladins are so gimped compared to other choices, like our star player Purifiers. They are very similar in stats and point costs as oblits/mutilators depending on upgrades. You may want to consider running them in units of three as problem solvers, Psybolt ammo, 2x hammer, 1x halberd sounds like it might work. Mastercraft as you see fit. Not even close. Mutilators are so bad even people who use Warp Talons don't take them. Obliterators are completely different to Paladins, they're an amazing ranged support unit that still powerfists you to death in melee, and they have access to T5 thanks to MoN. I wish Paladins were in the same tier as Oblits, but they don't even come close. If you wanna take MSU, I'd take Solodins. They'd function a bit like Lone Wolves do for SW, as an annoying pest to throw at your opponent and force him to deal with it. It's a pity we don't have storm shields, they'd really improve how well that would work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3748779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 You also don't want to waste the 20 pts to give a 3-man team psybolt ammo, it's only truly worth it on 10-man units, 5-man is also not really worth the 20 pts either... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3749169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 You also don't want to waste the 20 pts to give a 3-man team psybolt ammo, it's only truly worth it on 10-man units, 5-man is also not really worth the 20 pts either... I just field a 10man blob of Paladins and get Psybolt then combat squad them up. The only upgrade which I feel is stupidly overpriced is the Apothecary at 75 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3749179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I just field a 10man blob of Paladins and get Psybolt then combat squad them up. The only upgrade which I feel is stupidly overpriced is the Apothecary at 75 points Back in 5th he was worth that though, for Paladinstar. Nowdays of course, I'd agree. But you have consider such things in the context of when they were written. I'm sure in the new book, he'll get a price drop, as should Paladins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3749195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Back in 5th he was worth that though, for Paladinstar. Nowdays of course, I'd agree. But you have consider such things in the context of when they were written. I'm sure in the new book, he'll get a price drop, as should Paladins. I hope they get the price drop. Or at least a stat buff or what not. We'll just to wait Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3749216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I do the blob too, and yes. I splurge on the apothecary. I CS them, putting my four cannons in one squad with him, and the other five with cc weapon and storm bolter. He is expensive, but surprisingly, he has paid for his points many many times Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3749577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I hope they get the price drop. Or at least a stat buff or what not. We'll just to wait Well GW did introduce Centurions for regular Marines, and they haven't made much waves (replaced Devastators, but that wasn't a huge task). I think they can feel comfortable giving T5 2+ save multi-wound infantry to Marines now. Hopefully Paladins go up to T5, or get given Eternal Warrior... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3750271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyborgcommunist Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 I do the blob too, and yes. I splurge on the apothecary. I CS them, putting my four cannons in one squad with him, and the other five with cc weapon and storm bolter. He is expensive, but surprisingly, he has paid for his points many many timesAin't the common consensus to split the psycannons into 2 squads so that you can shoot 2 different units instead of 1 unit? But yes, the apothecary has always done good things for me. But he's 75 points so I've taken him out of my list for now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3751002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 When you pair then with a div libby, 16 twin linked psycannons are beast, esp if you get such things as outdoor ignore cover or overwatch on ballistic skill.. it's a unit your enemy will hate Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292700-is-the-draigowing-dead/page/4/#findComment-3751201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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