Greenwing: how do YOU use your banner of devastation ?

[eurieus]

Hello fellow unforgiven! 

 

I'm a new player, mostly playing my mate nids, and the last game i got my hands on a squad of vets that i used as my greenwing command squad with the banner of devastation. 

 

I played them very poorly, trying too hard to sit on a objective with my tacs and waiting a turn to disembark my command squad so my troops can have the salvo 4 special rule. 

When my tacs got where they were supposed to be, the command squad rhino got blown off and by the time the banner was effective, half my tacticals were dead. 

 

I won the game, but i felt that a banner of devastation in a greenwing setup was VERY static, i've been considering a ravenwing commande squad with a libby on a bike to have a mobile banner ( with relentless, yeah ! ) but i  love my vets as a command squad.... 

 

So, how do you unforgiven veterans use the greenwing command squad with the banner ? 

 

Cheers :) 

 

eurieus

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Like you noticed , if it's on foot, it's very static and only works if the enemy comes to you.

I'm fiddling with the idea of mounting it in a transport with the mandatory HQ with PFG for protection.

[aura_enchanted]

Drop pod, pick a spit for it, deepstrike it from the reserves table when your ready.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I'm not sure DP is teh solution. After it drops, mobility is still an issue. Also he has to drop his Pod close to his troops for them to benefit of it, so they have also to be either in DP or very mobile or else he has to DP close to his lines which defeats the purpose.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The biggest problem is that when the banner moves in range of your bolters, and they've already moved, they get the bad aspect of salvo. Your tactical squads need to be stationary for the turn to get any benefit from the banner. As already said it requires a very static army, and an enemy coming to you.

 

I would put them in a transport to increase the effective range of the banner. Even a Rhino provides some extra real-estate. It would also be helped by a power field generator to help keep the wounds away.

 

I'm thinking that it really is at its best with Ravenwing, and loses a lot of its value with non-relentless units.

[shabbadoo]

It is really not as good with Ravenwing as one might think, namely due to the fact that there will usually be two special weapons in a RW Squadron that will be firing (leaving only 4 bikes to fire bolters), and Black Knights/RW Command Squads don't have bolters at all.  You are just not getting a lot of use.  The main use of the standard is with standard Tactical and Devastator Squads filled with moslty basic marines with bolters.  You really don't even need heavy or special weapons in the units, and cetianly not veteran sergeants. Just bare bones jab-you-in-the-face bolter squads.  Though it isn't really necessary, you can take up to nine of these in a single FOC, and if you don't combat squad them then it is very easy to get one squad member from many of these squads within 6" of the standard, thus granting every single member of each 10-man squad the benefits. 140 points per squad to throw out 40 bolter shots per turn, per squad, is some really cheap and devastating firepower.  560 points gives you 160 bolter shots per turn.  Gross enough?  I hope so.

 

And that is how you make people cry. :p

[eurieus]

The biggest problem is that when the banner moves in range of your bolters, and they've already moved, they get the bad aspect of salvo. Your tactical squads need to be stationary for the turn to get any benefit from the banner. As already said it requires a very static army, and an enemy coming to you.

That's exactly my concerne, And even with a rhino, when disembarking your tacs have moved so they get the half range salvo 2 profile. So that means you have to set up the squad, maybe wait a turn to place the banner in range so they can fire the bolters with the rapid fire profile ? my guess is to sit your ass on a home objective, and to create a 24" denial zone...

It is really not as good with Ravenwing as one might think, namely due to the fact that there will usually be two special weapons in a RW Squadron that will be firing (leaving only 4 bikes to fire bolters), and Black Knights/RW Command Squads don't have bolters at all. You are just not getting a lot of use. The main use of the standard is with standard Tactical and Devastator Squads filled with moslty basic marines with bolters. You really don't even need heavy or special weapons in the units, and cetianly not veteran sergeants. Just bare bones jab-you-in-the-face bolter squads. Though it isn't really necessary, you can take up to nine of these in a single FOC, and if you don't combat squad them then it is very easy to get one squad member from many of these squads within 6" of the standard, thus granting every single member of each 10-man squad the benefits. 140 points per squad to throw out 40 bolter shots per turn, per squad, is some really cheap and devastating firepower. 560 points gives you 160 bolter shots per turn. Gross enough? I hope so.

And that is how you make people cry.

Haha this will make people cry for sure, with only 10 tacs left at turn two, once the banner was set up it changed the game in my favor, it's a very powerful tool.

Concerning the RWCS, i was thinking of using it not for the RWAS, but as a mobile banner of devastation, maybe with a libby with PFG, running around the board where it is most needed.... Be it some lonely vets in a drop pod, backfield tacs or to give some extra boost to a RWAS ...

[CoffeeGrunt]

As a Tau and Guard player, the Banner really makes your entire army a sitting duck to be effortlessly picked off.

 

Against Nids, it'll sweep away the little buggers, but also take a lot of fire to bring down the big'uns. Even 40 Bolter shots struggle, (28 hit, 5 Wound, 2 get past Armour.) Flyrants will laugh at your feeble pea-shooters. You're still going to want good ol' Krak and Las to bring down these big ones. I simply think that the Banner outside of Ravenwing forces you to lose too much for what you gain. Not moving in this very mobile Edition really hurts, and being stuck out in the open is fine when you're shooting in your turn, but not when your opponent rolls up the Tanks your Bolters patter off and blows the squad to kingdom-come.

 

Also, relying on volume per Marines means that each loss is felt more keenly. Four dead Marines is 16 less Bolter shots, and you'll run out fast against a competent opponent.

[GlauG]

Mine has sat in a Land Raider Crusader from day one. Even the changes to the PFG just meant that my Librarian hid behind the LRC rather than riding inside it! I have tried, but never actually run, a list using three LRCs supported by Tactical Squads in Rhinos. One day...

[eurieus]

As a Tau and Guard player, the Banner really makes your entire army a sitting duck to be effortlessly picked off.

 

Against Nids, it'll sweep away the little buggers, but also take a lot of fire to bring down the big'uns. Even 40 Bolter shots struggle, (28 hit, 5 Wound, 2 get past Armour.) Flyrants will laugh at your feeble pea-shooters. You're still going to want good ol' Krak and Las to bring down these big ones. I simply think that the Banner outside of Ravenwing forces you to lose too much for what you gain. Not moving in this very mobile Edition really hurts, and being stuck out in the open is fine when you're shooting in your turn, but not when your opponent rolls up the Tanks your Bolters patter off and blows the squad to kingdom-come.

 

Also, relying on volume per Marines means that each loss is felt more keenly. Four dead Marines is 16 less Bolter shots, and you'll run out fast against a competent opponent.

 

I agree with you, but actually, my 10 tacs fired all they had on his flyrant, he lost 2 wounds and failed the grounding test, got charged and BAM, no flyrant. I think the massive amount of shots is a good thing to ground FMC's, but again it's very situationnal. 

 

 

Mine has sat in a Land Raider Crusader from day one. Even the changes to the PFG just meant that my Librarian hid behind the LRC rather than riding inside it! I have tried, but never actually run, a list using three LRCs supported by Tactical Squads in Rhinos. One day...

 

Does it mean the banner work even if it's in a transport ? or you were just using it to boost your LRC ? 

[Darkangeldentist]

Shabbadoo, I humbly dissent with your assertion about the banner with Ravenwing. For a time I shared your skepticism about it but having used it on the table now feel that it's so borderline broken that I can no longer bring myself to field it! Your points are accurate that the command squad will not benefit from the banner at all but that almost doesn't matter and you are also right that most of the time ravenwing attack squadrons will be bringing special weapons. However there are a number of factors that this cursory assessment glosses over. The banner quadruples the firepower our regular bolter bikers have at 24" range, this turns 6 shots into 24 twin-linked shots and even marines need to respect that kind of firepower. With the mobility to set the distance between units granted by the bikes we can now engage in mid-ranged firefights in a way we could never do previously. Positioning can also mean we can attack from angles that make it more likely for us to kill special and heavy weapons which depending on opponent can drastically reduce the effective retaliation the opponent can muster. The fact all bike bolters are twin-linked makes them very reliable too, and more than a few posters on the forum have praised the efficacy of the land raider crusader's hurricane bolters under the effect of the banner. The point about special weapons is valid up to a point, every model that benefits from the standard is getting a lot of benefit from it and even if it's only 4 models, that's still 16 shots which about as many bolter shells that a full regular tactical squad can muster (assuming a special and heavy weapon in the unit). The boon of the banner to ravenwing in particular is that it gives them a means of killing large numbers of enemy infantry quickly, volume of attacks was always the biggest problem for the 2nd company and the banner solves.

 

That took more writing than I first thought and I still feel that I've not said all I want to but it's derailing the thread so I'll leave it there. Moving back on topic to the banner with regular green Dark angels.

 

It's a bit of problem but the key to the banner of devastation in regular armies is that the command squad fielding it must be mobile and able to lend the banner's benefits to where it's needed. It's actually a detriment to squads on the move since you can't take any long range shots. I would always put it in a transport and probably think about using the command squad as more a rapid response unit with special weapons. There is no need for them to benefit from the banner themselves since they are almost always going to be moving so it's where it needs to be.

 

As pointed out by CoffeeGrunt, tailoring your list to over-exploit the banner will just leave you vulnerable to those models/units our bolters can't hurt reliably or easily. However a standard list with all the usual upgrades still gets a huge boost from the banner as the support fire from bolters goes from fire and hope to serious fusillade. Overwatch becomes amazingly entertaining and is one of the few ways to use the banner well on mobile unit that isn't relentless or slow and purposeful. It's always about adding to your options rather than forming a specific gameplan based upon an ideal scenario. (Since opponents are rarely so obliging to bring a list just for us to shoot off the table.) 

 

If you were able to win even with half your marines dead before they got to benefit from the banner then I would say it still did it's job and to good effect. Sometimes we just have to accept that we won't get to realise the full potential of something but so long as what we do realise helps achieve victory then it should be enough to be satisfied.

[eurieus]

 

As pointed out by CoffeeGrunt, tailoring your list to over-exploit the banner will just leave you vulnerable to those models/units our bolters can't hurt reliably or easily. However a standard list with all the usual upgrades still gets a huge boost from the banner as the support fire from bolters goes from fire and hope to serious fusillade. Overwatch becomes amazingly entertaining and is one of the few ways to use the banner well on mobile unit that isn't relentless or slow and purposeful. It's always about adding to your options rather than forming a specific gameplan based upon an ideal scenario. (Since opponents are rarely so obliging to bring a list just for us to shoot off the table.) 

 

If you were able to win even with half your marines dead before they got to benefit from the banner then I would say it still did it's job and to good effect. Sometimes we just have to accept that we won't get to realise the full potential of something but so long as what we do realise helps achieve victory then it should be enough to be satisfied.

 

Exactly, it was the first time i used the banner, so i built most of my strategy around it, and it was a mistake. I'llprobably go with a rapid response command squad the next time, but i'll try the ravenwing command squad as well, even if i dont play pure ravenwing at all, i feel that it can be very useful. 

[GlauG]

 

 

Ostensibly, yes. We still measure any ranged effects from the hull of a transport, as per the section on boarding transport vehicles in the rulebook (I've got the digital version for a Kindle so can't provide a page #). I find it pretty worthwhile as a buff for the LRC itself, but I'm not sure I would pay the points for that alone. What it does mean is that the LRC is now just about capable of wiping out a single squad of MEQ with a turn's firing, with a little luck, or doing horrible things to hordes at 24".  

 

I did try once having a Dark Talon and 3 LRCs, plus two Tactical Squads, to gain maximum bang for my buck, but it's really, really hard to deploy in a useful way and you are essentially a static gun bunker, far from ideal.

[SvenONE]

The biggest issue I've seen people have (and myself included starting out) is trying to have EVERYONE get under the banner range.  I would continually spend an entire turn of movement advancing every tactical squad under the banner and thus forfeiting their shooting.  This would then lead to my opponent being in range of my units and at full strength to shoot at them.  I would maybe get 1 volley in and then get charged, or reduced so significantly that the boltguns wouldn't matter anymore.  Ultimately I felt that I wasn't getting enough volleys of fire that even justified bringing the command squad.  Until I changed my tactics.

 

Remember the use of a banner is about economics.  Aside from wanting your command squad to live as long as possible, you want your tactical squads to get as much of it as they can before they themselves are cut down, or brought into close combat where they can't use it.  I think for the best bang for your buck you want to employ a fire-by-rank strategy.

 

I made a quick diagram:

 

http://i.imgur.com/jBCvOA7.jpg

 

In my top row example, that block is a rhino/razorback with a command squad in it.  Combat squad 1 remains stationary while Combat Squad 2 advances.  Combat squad 1, remaining stationary can launch 20 shots at a target 24" away, while Combat Squad 2 forfeits it's turn to shoot, but with careful positioning I can move them just outside the range so they can still get 5 shots (better than nothing).  It's probable against MEQs that Combat 1 will inflict a few unsaved wounds.  Now my opponent has to choose whether to address Combat squad 1, Combat squad 2, or the rhino.  In the following turn, I can opt to leave everyone stay put or advance Combat Squad 1, who will also forfeit their shooting at anyone beyond 12" but Combat Squad 2 can pick up the slack.  In either case, one of those two squads will be firing at reduced strength, assuming that the enemy has opted to direct fire their way.

 

In the bottom example my tactical squad isn't split, if I advance towards a target that is outside my 24" I'll have forfeited my turn of shooting, meaning that the enemy unit will be at full strength when they fire at me, probably not as ideal.  What you can do in that situation is 1 of 2 things.  Bring the back row through the front row while leaving the back row stationary like they did in revolutionary times.  Alternatively you can move your rhino out of bubble range for shooting, and then flat out within range when your position is set.

 

Now in both examples, you may ask, why move with either squad if your opponent is within 24"?  My answer to that of course if that there may be a tactical objective you need to claim or an important piece of terrain you may need to control.

 

Now if you multiply this situation, and say turn the rhino into a landraider, and instead of a combat squadded tac squad you put in an entire second tactical squad, you can get some serious volleys going in alternating turns, while advancing towards an objective.

[Prot]

I can tell you right now that the Dakka banner is paramount to my success with my Ravenwing. Other than that? Not so sure.

 

The one downside of it in Ravenwing is that it would cause me to keep one bike from every squad within 6" causing quite a clump fest if I'm not carefull... Against IG/Chaos/etc, that's kind of a deathwish.

 

Like -everything- else in the Dark Angel codex, it requires a lot of work to be successful.

 

In 7th with jink and Malestrom, I just don't find that it's advantageous anymore to huddle up like that in a tight knit group with any of my armies. This reduces dakka banner's effectiveness quite a bit.

 

What I could see is using a Landraider Crusader and a Dark Talon combo. However once we start talking Landraider and the ability to put a banner in it, I'm really going against what I prefer to use in 7th, and that's lots of models.

 

My days of taking small elite armies are kind of behind me I think. My success in 7th has been largely due to speed combined with resilience and putting as many boots on the table (within reason) on the table. So expensive banners for me have kind of lowered in status unless I could figure out something truly unique, or useful.

[Vorenus]

SvenONE: thank you for the diagram and well-thought-out explanation. I think I may need clarification on one point, though: a couple of times you say that a squad forfeits its shooting. What do you mean by "forfeits"?

[SvenONE]

SvenONE: thank you for the diagram and well-thought-out explanation. I think I may need clarification on one point, though: a couple of times you say that a squad forfeits its shooting. What do you mean by "forfeits"?

 

Ahh good point, I may not have made that clear enough.  With the way Salvo works if you move, you can only fire the number of shots up to HALF the range.  So a Salvo 2/4 Bolter has two firing modes:

 

2 Shots at any target between 1" and 12"

4 Shots at any target between 1" and 24" (provided it has not moved)

 

So if you move, and your desired target is beyond 12" you will "forfeit" your turn to shoot.  That's why I added at the bottom that the alternative is to move the whole squad out of range of the banner so they can get their 10 boltgun shots up to their max range in the Turn 1 of shooting, and then in Turn 2 of moving/shooting the command squad rhino moves to wrap them in the Standard bubble while they remain stationary.  In that case, in 2 turns you can theoretically fire off 50 shots.  In the case of my example, you can get 40, 20 in each turn.  Which I think is a better option since it behooves you to wound your opponent so they themselves are not at full strength during their turn of shooting.

[eurieus]

Thank you SvenOne for your explanations !!! Very helpful :) 

 

So, as i said i'm a rookie player, and i didn't know you could use the banner effect from the hull of the rhino ( that would've changed a lot of thing in the first two turns. ) 

I don't have much experience with it, but reading what Prot ans Darkangeldentist have written,  along with SvenOne's diagrams, it's a very situational, yet powerful tool to use, but you can't really build a whole strategy around it.

 

And again that's what i like about the Dark Angels, there is no "no brainer" choices when it comes to strategy and list building :) 

[shabbadoo]

Shabbadoo, I humbly dissent with your assertion about the banner with Ravenwing. For a time I shared your skepticism about it but having used it on the table now feel that it's so borderline broken that I can no longer bring myself to field it! Your points are accurate that the command squad will not benefit from the banner at all but that almost doesn't matter and you are also right that most of the time ravenwing attack squadrons will be bringing special weapons. However there are a number of factors that this cursory assessment glosses over. The banner quadruples the firepower our regular bolter bikers have at 24" range, this turns 6 shots into 24 twin-linked shots and even marines need to respect that kind of firepower. With the mobility to set the distance between units granted by the bikes we can now engage in mid-ranged firefights in a way we could never do previously. Positioning can also mean we can attack from angles that make it more likely for us to kill special and heavy weapons which depending on opponent can drastically reduce the effective retaliation the opponent can muster. The fact all bike bolters are twin-linked makes them very reliable too, and more than a few posters on the forum have praised the efficacy of the land raider crusader's hurricane bolters under the effect of the banner. The point about special weapons is valid up to a point, every model that benefits from the standard is getting a lot of benefit from it and even if it's only 4 models, that's still 16 shots which about as many bolter shells that a full regular tactical squad can muster (assuming a special and heavy weapon in the unit). The boon of the banner to ravenwing in particular is that it gives them a means of killing large numbers of enemy infantry quickly, volume of attacks was always the biggest problem for the 2nd company and the banner solves.

The main problem is the cost of the RWAS to get that shooting.  You don't get as much for the points.  More shots is better than twin-linked shots for killing stuff.  Besides that, for the points Black Knights are the better unit than RWAS in nearly every way.  I would take the Standad of Fortitude for a pure RW force instead, and favor Black Knights as much as possible (I have 12 right now, but that will bcome 15: 5 command, 10 more to run as one unit or split into two 5-man groups).  The set-up you describe, particularly the range of the firefights, really only works against a relatively static enemy (i.e. footsloggers).  RWAS are very vulnerable to just being locked up in close combat, where they lose all of their benefits except their Toughness, fight worse than a Tactical Squad, and they can't get away.  i fidn the Stanrdar of Fortitude to be the better option for smaller fordes, eaprtially oens gard for clsoe combat like DW forces and Black Knight-heavy RW forces are.

 

As to the Land Raider thing...we pay 280 points base per Land Raider to get 24 twin-linked bolter shots.  The only reason people talk that up is because *pure* DW forces don't have access to true massed firepower capability.  For those who wish to run *pure* DW, Crusaders + Standard of Devastation is the only way to give them some of that capability.  If you remove the "pure" army limitation, for RW or DW, then you can do some truly gruesome damage using Greenwing, and for far fewer points. Three full RWAS is equivalent in points to 4 full Tactical Squads. The bikes 72 twin-linked bolter shots  will garner you 64 hits on average.  The 160 bolter shots from the Tactical Squads will garner about 107 hits on average.  There is no comparison damage-wise, nor is there any comparison in how diffciult it wil lbe for thenemy to kill 40 Tactical Marines as opposed to killing 18 RW bikes.  This all has little to do with the points you are making though, which really have to do with bolstering *pure* RW or DW forces.  My point is that, while the Standard of Devastation can be used to bolster pure RW or DW forces, it is best used to greatest effect when attached to basic Greenwing units.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

 My point is that, while the Standard of Devastation can be used to bolster pure RW or DW forces, it is best used to greatest effect when attached to basic Greenwing units.

 

 

DW aside because they only have Crusaders, SoD in RW can put the shots were they hurt more with a mobile 36" radius... opposite to the green boots that must stand their ground and wait for their prey to be within 24". So I that you can't say SoD works better with Green than Black because despite fewer shots, the RW  can deliver with more precision and actively seek a target. With 7th the static SoD is better of course because now you don't need 24" to the enemy.. you need 24" to the objectives that the enemy wants and that is easier to achieve because the enemy is forced to move.

I don't think there's a clear winner. Both Green and black use it with with efficiency given the different playstyles.

[RayJ]

 

Ostensibly, yes. We still measure any ranged effects from the hull of a transport, as per the section on boarding transport vehicles in the rulebook (I've got the digital version for a Kindle so can't provide a page #). I find it pretty worthwhile as a buff for the LRC itself, but I'm not sure I would pay the points for that alone. What it does mean is that the LRC is now just about capable of wiping out a single squad of MEQ with a turn's firing, with a little luck, or doing horrible things to hordes at 24".  

 

I did try once having a Dark Talon and 3 LRCs, plus two Tactical Squads, to gain maximum bang for my buck, but it's really, really hard to deploy in a useful way and you are essentially a static gun bunker, far from ideal.

 

 

I found the passage you are referring to. It is page 80 in the printed book, under the Embarking subheader. Last sentence fo the first paragraph. I guess this would let aura effects work while embarked, unless an errata changes that later. I guess we can say yay for PFGs and banners inside crusaders.

[eurieus]

 

 

Ostensibly, yes. We still measure any ranged effects from the hull of a transport, as per the section on boarding transport vehicles in the rulebook (I've got the digital version for a Kindle so can't provide a page #). I find it pretty worthwhile as a buff for the LRC itself, but I'm not sure I would pay the points for that alone. What it does mean is that the LRC is now just about capable of wiping out a single squad of MEQ with a turn's firing, with a little luck, or doing horrible things to hordes at 24".  

 

I did try once having a Dark Talon and 3 LRCs, plus two Tactical Squads, to gain maximum bang for my buck, but it's really, really hard to deploy in a useful way and you are essentially a static gun bunker, far from ideal.

 

 

I found the passage you are referring to. It is page 80 in the printed book, under the Embarking subheader. Last sentence fo the first paragraph. I guess this would let aura effects work while embarked, unless an errata changes that later. I guess we can say yay for PFGs and banners inside crusaders.

 

That's a pretty efficient combo i have to say .... A thought i had earlier, with the new jink rule, the BoD would be even more useful to a ravenwing army right ? salvo 4 rerollable snapshot looks pretty nice in my book. 

[FarFromSam]

I'll throw in my two cents.  I'm a fan of using the BoD and tacts as a cheap home base.  3 squads with a plasma cannon, plus the command squad in a rhino is 665'ish points for 140 bolter shots, and 30 scoring bodies.  Additionally, I loved fielding Azrael alongside them.  Remember, Rites of Battle turns the leadership 8 tacts into LD 10.  Additionally, he grants his squad a 4++ put him in the front squad and his unit becomes a 5+ aegis for the other 2 tacts behind him.  Furthermore he gets to pick his Warlord trait...  take the Feel no Pain within 3" of obj and you have a tactical squad that fires 36 bolters, has a 4++, and 5+ FnP.  not bad.  In sixth, the utility came from Azzy making Ravenwing and Deathwing scoring.  So, for 880 points you have a strong ld 10 firebase, and 800 points for units to DS/outflank forward.  Haven't used this list in 7th yet, but the idea of a cheap firebase should translate over.  Azrael may not even be necessary no that elites and FA can score.   Keep them cheap, deploy them on an obj, and don't move them.