Assorted 7e detachment rules awkwardness

[Sception]

This is meant to be a catch all thread for discussion of the rules awkwardness of the 7e detachment rules. At the very least this would cover:

SUPPLEMENTS.

The chaos supplements - crimson slaughter and black legion - say they apply on a detachment scale. As such, for any given CSM detachment, you can choose for it to be black legion or crimson slaughter, and then apply all the rules and restrictions of that supplement to that detachment.

Right up front this means you CANNOT MIX AND MATCH SUPPLEMENT AND NON SUPPLEMENT UNITS IN THE SAME DETACHMENT, despite some confusion to the contrary, even from mainstream tournament organizers. You can include multiple supplement stuff in the same battleforged army, and MAY USE THEM AS EITHER ALLIED DETACHMENTS OR SECONDARY COMBINED ARMS DETACHMENTS. EDIT:  Theoretically, you may even have Black Legion primary with Crimson Slaughter allied, since each uses the parent book's allies matrix and thus can theoretically ally with each other as legally as they can ally with the parent book, but that's kind of iffy. Because they are the same faction, you may include them as separate combined arms detachments. Normally forces of the same faction as your primary detachment may not be included as allied detachments, but the supplements both specifically state that they 'may ally with' the parent book, and vice versa.

Be aware that this isn't completely clear. 'May ally with' is not necessarily synonymous to 'may be taken as an allied detachment', but pending official clarification that seems to be the best reading.

Note that "Combined Arms" and "Allied" are not the only detachments. In an unbound list, all forces from the same faction form a single detachment, and you may then apply the supplement rules to that 'detachment'. Note however that this means you CANNOT MIX SUPPLEMENT AND NON SUPPLEMENT UNITS WITHIN THE SAME UNBOUND ARMY.  EDIT: except through the use of formations, which are separate detachments which unbound armies are allowed to field.  Note that, since the main reason to run our supplements is alternate artifacts (which are unavailable in any currently released CSM formation) and shifted force org slots (which don't matter in formations), that doesn't mean all that much, other than for getting fear on the formation's units via crimson slaughter.

Note that dataslate formations count as their own detachments, and thus, unless something that I don't know of says otherwise, theoretically you can apply the supplement rules to them (provided the supplement allows the units in question). Note that this would mean ALL CSM FORMATIONS SHOULD BE CRIMSON SLAUGHTER FOR FREE FEAR, since none of the crimson slaughter restrictions, nor any of the Black Legion benefits, apply to any units in our existing formations.


What remains unclear is whether "Black Legion detachments" and "Crimson Slaughter detachments" are mutually exclusive, and what it would mean if they weren't. Could you then take fear causing, objective securing, black slaughter crimson legion chosen with preferred enemy and no vets tax? My instincts say no. My own interpretation is that, rather than the Crimson slaughter ban on vets letting you get around the black legion vets tax, instead the simultaneous and mutually exclusive requirements would mean that any unit that would normally have the option of buying vets (other than cult units), would simply be disallowed altogether. But that's only if a dual supplement detachment could be a thing in the first place, and my inclination would be to say no, it cannot.



CONJURED UNITS

According to the rulebook, all units are part of a detachment, but nothing says what detachment conjured daemons are part of. Are they their own, new detachment? Are they part of the same detachment as whatever psyker conjured them? Are they part of any chaos daemon detachment in the army? Are they treated as non-slot choices from the conjurers detachment, or does the fact that detachments in general (and combined arms and allied detachments in particular) must come from a single faction mean that conjured units must in fact be a separate detachment, provided the conjuring psyker is not themselves from codex: chaos daemons?

In an unbound army, all units from the same faction form a detachment together, so presumably in an unbound army conjured daemons join your daemon detachment, if any, and form a new daemon detachment, if none previously existed. But in a battleforged army?

It's completely unclear. And that's a problem, because it's then unclear whether conjured daemon troop units have 'objective secured' if conjured by a psyker in a combined arms or allied detachment.

As far as I can tell, this just outright requires FAQ, and until then house rules need to be agreed to on a table by table basis. Discuss this with your opponents before any games with malefic casters on either side.

The other question for conjured units is "how do they treat the rest of your army"? Do they interact according to the allies matrix (ie, daemons or CSMs summoning daemons would treat them as battle brothers, space marines or guard would treat them as come the apocalypse), or are they treated as the same faction as the conjuring psyker? Again, as far as I'm aware this is left totally in the air by the rules, outright requires FAQ, and until then you will need to agree to house rules before any game that includes malefic casters.
 
 
EDIT: I now have access to the 7e rulebook, but have not been able to look through it in detail, due to spending my hobby time painting models for ETL.  If anyone in the thread can supply rules quotes contradicting the above interpretations or clarifying the above questions, I'll edit this post with the correction.

[Trevak Dal]

Regarding the unbound thing-that sort of makes sense, because we're chaos and would have to jump through hoops (and pay through the nose) to get arty armor and Eternal warrior.

*sigh* Juggerlord with Daemonheart, EW Skull, Blade of the Relentless isn't possible I guess.

Unless you play space wolves. Phil Kelly is my hero.

I see it like this.

Primary detachment: Crimson slaughter

HQ: Kranon on a Bike/Juggernaught.

Elite: Dagnabit's Plasma Spam squad.

Troops: CS Possessed, rhino.

CS CSMs, Rhino

Fast: Heldrake, Bale

Fast: Tzeentch Spawn x 5

Fast: Tzeentch Spawn x 5

Heavy: AC Havoks

Heavy: Nurgle Oblits.

2nd Detachment Black Legion

HQ: Mr. McFister, the Un-Killable on a Juggernaught

Troops: BL Chosen, Rhino.

Troops: BL Chosen, Rhino.

Fast: Spawn

Fast: Spawn

Fast: Heldrake

Heavy: Maulerfiend

Heavy: Maulerfiend

Now let's take a helcult:

Helcult detachment:

Helbrute: Twinlinked Lascannon

2x35 Cultists.

And Cypher Raige:

Cypher Detachment:

Cypher

3x5 Chosen with *Free* Loyalist Powers!

[incinerator950]

No one out of BL likes us.

[Trevak Dal]

In regards to Who has objective secured:

 

In unbound:  Nobody in the Unbound army has Objective secured.  Period End Of.

 

In a bound army with multiple detachments:  Whoever is troops/are made troops have Objective secured: Chosen in BL supplement, or if you take Abaddon as HQ in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment, Cult troops unlocked via HQ from each detachment.  Cultists from Helcult have it.

 

So if you summon troop daemons in a bound army, they have objective secured.  If you summon a blood thirster-it does not.  If you summon Troop daemons in a Unbound army-they do not have objective secured because nothing in unbound has objective secured.

 

Besides, unbound is for awesome stuff like running Only HQs.  You've not lived until you see what 10 Warpsmiths do to...anything after charging out of a landraider.

[Sception]

In a bound army with multiple detachments:  Whoever is troops/are made troops have Objective secured: Chosen in BL supplement, or if you take Abaddon as HQ in a Crimson Slaughter Detachment, Cult troops unlocked via HQ from each detachment.  Cultists from Helcult have it.

From my understanding, this is false. From the rules pages I've seen, objective secured is not a special rule of battleforged armies in general, it's a special rule of combined arms detachments and allied detachments in particular, and applies only to troops selected from such detachments.

 

While there's some question over whether conjured daemons count as part of their conjurers detachment, which, if true, could give them objective secured, there is no question about formation units. They are not part of allied or combined arms detachments, and do not benefit from the rules thereof, objective secured included.

 

As for 10 warpsmiths in a land raider - that's a 1200 point unit, and I'd imagine it does exactly what one would expect 1200 points of unit to do if the opponent doesn't put any effort into stopping it.

[daboarder]

Codex and supplement rules override the BRB. Basic

 

Crimson slaughter and Black legion have codex specific rules allowing them to ally with CSM

 

ergo you MAY ally in a CS or BL detatchment

 

same with farsight, sentinels and the iron hands (iyanden is still the wierd one with its own mix and match setup)

[Sception]

Iirc, they have rules making them battle brothers with the parent book. Just being battle brothers doesn't mean you can be taken as an allied detachment, though. All factions are battle brothers with themselves now, and it has rules implications to how they interact with themselves when taking multiple combined arms detachments.

 

Unless I'm missing a sentence somewhere (and I might be, am away from book at the moment), that doesn't let you take them as allied detachments. They would require a specific note allowing them to take each other as allied detachments.

[Dallas Drake]

It does need and FAQ but until this happens I will state the following:

 

On page 118 Under Detachments, "all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment."  

 

On page 121 under the title 'Army List Entries That Do Not Use Force Organisation Slots' it says. "In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits."

 

On page 122 it says that, "All Troops Units from this Detachment have the OS special rule..."

 

Dallas

 

Edit: If you go the other way and assume they are (which is just as correct) not part of the CAD and are not part of your army then what are they? What's to stop summoning multiple Heralds all with a portalglyph? They're not a CAD or an ally, so why can't you do this? Ruling that they are not OS and not part of the CAD has it's own issues which I think are far, far more broken.

[Sception]

The quote you provided applies to units selected from your primary detachment force that do not take up a force org slot. conjured units are not selected during army creation at all, and are instead generated mid game. It's not the same thing.

 

A battleforged army may include detachments that are not combined arms or allied. Formations, in particular, are detachments allowed to a battleforged army that are not combined arms or allied, and troops units from formations in battleforged armies do not have objective secured. It is not clear from the rules whether conjured units join the same detachment as the conjurer or form a separate detachment, but if the latter were the case, it wouldn't cause the whole army to stop being battleforged, any more than having your troops wiped out in game, would cause you to stop being battleforged because you no longer had the minimum requirements of your detachments. Whether you are battleforged is a list building determination, not one re-assessed mid gameplay.

 

Normally combined arms or allied detachments must be from a single faction, so one could just as easily argue that, for any malefic psyker not from codex: chaos daemons, any conjured daemon units would have to be in a separate detachment.

 

The point stands - the rules are entirely unclear. 'conjured units are part of the same detachment as the conjurer' is a perfectly reasonable go to interpretation in the mean time. 'conjured units form a new, separate detachment' is an equally valid stand in rule, pending some sort of official clarification. Obviously the former is better for us, but then again the latter is more consistent with a 'your army treats conjured units according to the allied matrix and vice versa' interpretation, which is also better for us, so it's a win either way, imo.

[the jeske]

Right now you can either play csm , cs or BL . mixing of any sort is tricky. For example you can take a CS sorc with vets and just cultists and ally them in to BL list , but you can't take cs csm[because that would be breaking the vets ban] . In general it is stupid.

 

as far as what demons are . In a demon army they are part of the primary . in a csm list with demon ally they are part of the demon ally detachment. The real fun stuff starts when a sorc summons them . Then they are part of a detachment , only it is an unnamed one[separate one for each summoned demon unit too].

 

In general house rule it and pray for a FAQ.

[Sception]

Right now you can either play csm , cs or BL . mixing of any sort is tricky. For example you can take a CS sorc with vets and just cultists and ally them in to BL list , but you can't take cs csm[because that would be breaking the vets ban] . In general it is stupid.

You cannot ally them, they are the same faction. You can take them as a secondary combined arms detachment. This would not cause any problem with CSMs or other units, because the restrictions on vets only apply to individual detachments, not to the army as a whole (nor to units one at a time - you cannot select one unit using the black legion rules and another unit not using the black legion rules within the same detachment).

 

CSM units in the Black Legion detachment would have to buy vets, CSM units in the Crimson Slaughter detachment would be unable to. No contradictions, unless someone is claiming that a detachment can simultaneously be a 'crimson slaughter detachment' and a 'black legion detachment', in which case things get messy, and I would be inclined to avoid that mess entirely by rejecting such 'dual supplement detachments' to begin with.

 

 

In general house rule it and pray for a FAQ.

Pretty much.

[Sception]

Another thought: if conjured daemons do join the conjurer's detachment, are there any dataslate formations potentially including malefic summoners, with formation-wide rules that could be abused by conjured daemons which would not otherwise be part of said formation?

 

I don't think there are at the moment, but then again, I don't have all the formation rules.

[Dragonlover]

I'm unsure as to why there is the allying confusion, my logic is as follows:

 

In addition to Codexes and Supplements, we now have Factions. The Chaos Space Marine Faction consists of the Chaos Space Codex, the Black Legion Supplement and the Crimson Slaughter Supplement.

 

A Faction is Battle Brothers with itself. Therefore Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter are all Battle Brothers.

 

In conclusion, you can take a CSM Primary Detachment with a Crimson Slaughter Allied Detachment, BL Primary with CSM Allied or any other combination you care to think of.

 

I need to be in the same room as my books before I really formulate an opinion on mixing Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter as a single Battleforged detachment, but my gut feeling is that due to the Vets mutual exclusiveness it would end up being a little pointless unless you really wanted specific artifacts on your HQ's

 

Dragonlover

[Sception]

No. The rules for allied detachments specifically preclude selecting an allied detachment that is the same faction as your primary detachment. You are battle brothers with yourself, which governs how you treat units from the same faction that happen to come from another detachment (a formation perhaps, or a secondary combined arms detachment), but you may not include allied detachments of the same faction as your primary.

 

Unless you are vanilla loyalist space marines, who have an FAQ exception.

[Dragonlover]

What, so Marines can't take Grey Knights or Guard as allies now because they're all the same faction?

 

That seems... utter balls, if I'm honest.

 

Dragonlover

[Emperors Immortals]

Ill check out my Daemons codex when I get home, but does this mean that anything in the Apocolypse book referencing Codex:Daemons has to be allied in through a Daemons detachment?

 

Because I remeber that while some specify a particular choice for Codex:Daemons or Codex:ChaosSpaceMarines, theres quite a few referenced as only Unit type:Daemon Lord.

 

Id assume they have to be taken through C:D but is this up for exploitation at all?

 

Also, there has to be some shenanigans available with the summoned power allowing all upgrades for a daemons unit?

[Sception]

@dragonlover: No. The various imperial factions are still mostly separate factions. They are condensed on the allies matrix because they all interact the same with other factions or each other, but 'armies of the imperium' is not, itself, a faction.

 

 

@immortals: apocalypse specifically does not use detachments, so you don't have to ally in anything. It's like unbound, but, iirc, without the bit that makes stuff count as conglomerate detachments by faction (though that would technically mean no BL or CS in APO, it's APO, so I'd imagine allowing supplement stuff would be part of the unique pile of special rules each individual APO game requires to be remotely functional in the first place). Not sure what you're asking, otherwise.

[Dallas Drake]

Well Mal, until I see an FAQ I'll be sticking to that line, a unit can't exist out of a CAD so it must therefore be part of the CAD. I'm summoning troops that I'm battle brothers with, so I'll be putting forward my desire to play them as OS troops (after discussing and agreeing with my opponents). My regular friends I play with already agree with me since I used gaunts as an example of a unit that kind of falls into a similar catagory.

 

What, so Marines can't take Grey Knights or Guard as allies now because they're all the same faction?

 

That seems... utter balls, if I'm honest.

 

Dragonlover

Astra Militarum, Blood Angles, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Space Marines are all different factions. (Page 118)

 

Then, to save space I assume, they bundle them all together as ' Armies of the Imperium' on page 126 for the allies chart.

 

So they can ally just fine.

[Sception]

A unit in a battleforged army certainly can exist out of a CAD. All formation units do. allied detachment units do as well, though their troops still have OS (formation troops, like helcult cultists, do not).

 

I'm not arguing that summoned units don't belong in the same detachment as their conjurer. At the moment there are no rules to cover them at all. They 'must be' part of a detachment, but there is no individual detachment to which they belong according to the rules.

 

At least not in a battleforged list. In an unbound list, they at least seem to be part of your chaos daemons detachment, since all units from a given faction are lumped into the same detachment in unbound, and if you don't have any other chaos daemon stuff then they would form a new daemon detachment of their own.

 

A clarification to the issue of conjured units for battleforged lists would probably also change the status quo for conjured units in unbound lists as well, though.

[Emperors Immortals]

@malisteen - yes, having re-read the book I can see waht you mean.

 

 

One thing I did notice though, conjureed daemonic units can be given all available unit upgrades incl. standard. We can then join that unit with a character and take advantage of the daemonic banner special rule in that phase.

 

Could be intereting to have a poisoned Axe of BLind Fury, or Burning Brand with the Blasted standard extra damage for example.

 

Anybody come up with a better combo with this?

[Sception]

No. Codex: Chaos Daemon units all have daemonic instability, and units with daemonic instability cannot be joined by characters without (and vice versa). Our characters and units, even the ones with the 'daemon' rule, like warp talons or crimson slaughter prophets, lack the instability rule. We are battle brothers, but cannot benefit from the primary advantage afforded to battle brothers.

 

We can still ride in each others' transports, which means you can transport a pile of bloodletters or daemonettes in a spartan. That could be nasty.

[Dallas Drake]

I was under the impression that CSM ICs can't join Daemons units & vice versa.

 

Edit: Beat to it.

[Emperors Immortals]

Thanks for clearing that up guys :)

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

The relationship between the parent CSM dex and the BL and CS supplements in 7th was already discussed in the Official Rules forum.  Just like malisteen, I originally thought the only way they could work together now was as Combined Arms detachments, but the final consensus in the OR forum agreed with what daboarder has posted above.  (Which is that the special rules in those particular supplements still allow them to work with CSM and each other as Allied detachments, even if they're now all from the same Faction.  So for example, you don't have to buy a second troop choice to unlock a Balestar Sorceror, at least until those supplements are FAQed.) 

[Sception]

I'm away from book, do you have a specific quote from the supplements allowing them to be taken as an allied detachment? I don't remember one, but I could be wrong. Being battle brothers isn't the same as being a valid choice for an allied detachment.

 

EDIT: alright, I'm back to book. Both the supplements have language to the effect of "may ally with" the parent book. This isn't quite as explicit as I'd like, 'may ally with' is not necessarily synonymous with 'may be taken as an allied detachment', but that does seem to be the most reasonable interpretation to me, pending official clarification, so I'll update the first post.