incinerator950 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 So to curb my multiplying negativity, and to promote more unit tactic topics, this one will be about the humble, slightly expensive commandos. They can spam specials, power weapons, and a small aount of ordnance. They're better with CS orCypher, troops with Abbadon or BL. Can ride, and make fun infiltrators. How d'you gents and ladies use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I typically run one unit of 9 to 10 (depending on attached IC), with vets (black legion), two power axes, two to three meltaguns, a champion with a power sword and possibly melta bombs, riding a land raider. They do absolutely terrible for me, I don't recommend that set up at all. For one, a chosen with a power wep is fully the price of a terminator with power weapon, 2+/5+ save, and combi bolter, so... yeah. If you want to run chosen, then I do recommend 6 to 8 chosen with five plasma plus combi plas in fallen formation with cypher, or 2 to 4 units of 5 to 6 chosen with 2 to 3 plasma in rhinos, or 2 units of 5 chosen with a lascannon and nothing else. Sadly none of that makes a cool retinue for a chaos lord or sorcerer, though to be honest you're better of looking to bikes or spawn for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 My favorite chosen squad is a unit of 5 with flamers and mark of khorne. It doesn't usually do much, but occasionally they're awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 That sounds like an awesome retinue, Malisteen. Shame they don't accomplish much. I'm still doing a close combat squad myself, although I expect similar results... Of course, I'm also working on a plasma squad to run with Cypher. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Remind me to ping Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I plan to field Crimson Slaughter Plasma Chosen with the Draznicht's Ravagers upgrade. Seems to me the most fun way to play them. Would love to deepstrike them in a drop pod (Why must you suck so much Dreadclaw, why?) but a Rhino as transport will do I guess. Hopefully we'll get those rumored new Chosen kits soon/ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 I typically run one unit of 9 to 10 (depending on attached IC), with vets (black legion), two power axes, two to three meltaguns, a champion with a power sword and possibly melta bombs, riding a land raider. They do absolutely terrible for me, I don't recommend that set up at all. For one, a chosen with a power wep is fully the price of a terminator with power weapon, 2+/5+ save, and combi bolter, so... yeah. If you want to run chosen, then I do recommend 6 to 8 chosen with five plasma plus combi plas in fallen formation with cypher, or 2 to 4 units of 5 to 6 chosen with 2 to 3 plasma in rhinos, or 2 units of 5 chosen with a lascannon and nothing else. Sadly none of that makes a cool retinue for a chaos lord or sorcerer, though to be honest you're better of looking to bikes or spawn for that. You have my attention, please elaborate, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Elaborate, how? Elaborate on why I run the wacky retinue I do? This is why. Although they are magnetized, so the mentioned plasma configuration will likely appear soon after I get around to a cypher conversion or counts as, though that's a ways down the line. Expand on why they don't do well? The unit alone is like 300ish points, plus 250 for the land raider, plus 150ish for the character, depending, for a 700+ point unit, and they have just not been 700 points of awesome. Death stars tear them apart, if they ever get stuck outside of melee they gun down as easy as tacticals, their offense, while nice, does not stand up to other melee specialists that are anywhere near as expensive. The land raider is too pricey for a transport, but because the unit inside is so expensive and fragile, it can't afford to slow down and fire its weaponry. I haven't tried it in 7e, though (they're on hiatus from my lists until I finish painting them), and the new vehicle damage chart is pretty friendly to heavily armored vehicles. It's likely still terrible for the points, but may not be so completely depressing if I can at least deliver the unit with any amount of regularity. Mostly though, they just look awesome, and since that's why I take them in the first place, I remain happy with their performance. They aren't as depressing as my big deep striking terminator retinue with abaddon was (those guys were super committed to mishapping off the table in over half of their games - even a unit that only really exists to be pretty is no fun if you never get to deploy it in the first place). As for why I do recommend them in the other configurations? the Fallen in particular are nice, though I generally only like a single unit with Cypher. Infiltrate gets them in position for plasma death, cypher gives them shroud for some reasonable protection from ranged threats if you stick to cover (and you should). ATSKNF helps the morale situation, and without having to pay a vets tax. Anything that wants to root them out with an assault as to deal with short ranged plasma death, overwatch (particularly cypher's nasty full BS plasma), and a non chump-change pile of attacks, after which you get to hit & run right back out of combat, and pump them full of plasma again (thought they'll probably be in cover at that point). You'll lose some in the assault, though, so I do recommend taking 2 to 4 ablative wounds. In 7th they got a bit better, imo, since they can actually claim objectives - though as a formation they don't have objective secured, even if you declare them to be Black Legion. if your opponents allow you to declare formations to be supplement detachments, you should make them crimson slaughter for the free fear, though. I do not recommend them if your opponents take a lot of servo skulls (infiltrate loses value) or cover ignoring shooting (they become way too vulnerable). I do not really recommend multiple units (infiltrating plasmaspam is nice, but the other units don't get shroud or hit and run, and so become super vulnerable to both shooting and melee, and while they don't have to pay the Black Legion's vet tax, they're still quite expensive (fully terminator price for a single chosen with a plasma gun, who dies as easily as a simple CSM bolter buddy), and cypher himself makes the formation very pricey on top of that, so after taking the one unit, I'm generally too strapped for points to take more. However, with the maelstrom mission first turn objective scramble, the infiltrate may make it worth it. I've tried Huron and Cypher myself, but not in the same list. Let's see, cypher's like, what, 200ish? and 8 chosen w/ a bunch of plasma is, like, 250ish? support with two units of six fallen with three plasma, that's about 150 each - maybe a little less - so we're talking ~850, then another 200ish for huron, 1050, and two units of... something? for his average MoD roll? Pretty open there, but you need troops still. Could go black legion with another pair of 150ish point small plasma chosen units, maybe a bit more with vet tax, plus maybe buy them rhinos? Should have points left over for some oblits? Or maybe go with a couple squads of 20 cheap bolter buddies with dual plas & combi plas? Maybe put meltaguns in the cheaper fallen squads, at that rate? Or try and make up for the numbers a bit with two units of 35 cultists carrying three flamers each? I don't know. Something to try out some day, provided servo skulls haven't effectively removed infiltrate as a rule in your area. They did in mine for a while, but it's dying down a bit. Re: the cheaper chosen plas squads mentioned previously and briefly above, that's 5-6 chosen, possibly black legion for vet tax and objective secured (not that the latter matters too much, but you still need to hit min troop slots somehow) or fallen or huron for infiltrate (fallen lose the rhino, and with huron you're better off taking plagues), generally carrying three plasmaguns, or two plas plus a combi plas on the champ, riding in a rhino which may or may not have it's own combi plas. Yeah, you could give the whole squad plasma, but at 15 points a pop, you get nearly a fourth unit out of dropping half the plas on the other three (or, if you just take two units, you get a backfield camping cultist unit out of each down-sized chosen squad). If they spend a lot of time in rhinos, they're only firing two plasma at a time, anyway. Basically, you're running them as nearly-as-expensive, but-much-more-fragile plague marines if you do this. Meaning you're better off just doing the same with plagues, but not everybody runs nurgle, and if you run Black Legion you're really looking for some excuse to run those chosen, so... Re: the 5 man with one lascannon squad, they're basically equivalent to 5 man noise marine squads with a blaster master - static back field objective campers with a single heavy weapon to threaten downfield while they sit back. They're cheaper than the noise marine equivalent, and their gun has longer range. It's not as good against infantry (lacking blast and ignores cover), but better against vehicles (higher strength, AP2). They aren't fearless, so might run if you lose a couple, but their leadership is decent, and since they aren't fearless they can go to ground. Not a terrible squad, though not a great one, either. Something to consider if you need objective campers and more ranged anti-tank, but have already used up your heavy support slots - otherwise you should be taking havocs or oblits for more firepower per point. Yeah the latter won't have objective secured, but they can still score, and honestly, if any of these units end up engaged by an enemy, you're probably losing them anyway, so OS doesn't really matter on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think that his highlighting of the lascannon squad in his quote was an indicator of what he wanted clarified, but the full run down only helps the thread so thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I used ten-man squad with VotLW, Icon of Wrath and Mark of Khorne, and when they managed to catch something in close combat, they were amazing, I think they are the second best SM/CSM unit for killing stuff in melee. But with LR they cost 470 points, and while it's the same as usual 5-man loyalist hammernators squad, it's a 1/4 of all army in one place, and I dislike building my list around one expensive unit. On the other hand, 6-man squad with 5 plasma guns and combi-plasma in rhino works fine, while not being too expensive, attaching sorcerer really helps a lot, biomancy or telepathy can make chosen much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Plasma seems the more likely option, just because of our need for AP2 but I have no problems with a few power axes in there. I think if I was going to run them I'd find a way to fit Cypher in too, he complements them nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 5 dudes anywhere from 3-5 plasma in rhino 5 dudes anywhere from 2-3 plasma and an AC 5 dudes anwwhere from 1-2 plasma a LC BL upgrade ain't worth it. Melee chosen cost as much as terminators , but have worse gear and are weaker in melee and both units use the same kind of transports[only terminators can work without one and chosen can't]. In general the same points put in to terminators give more utility . Chosen do get more interesting [for lack of better words to describe what they are] , if they are part of the cypher formation . One those have to remember that they work better out of loyalist dex , so the gain is rather limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 One those have to remember that they work better out of loyalist dex , so the gain is rather limited. Then again, terminators run better out of loyalist books, too. As do most, possibly even all, of our marinish units, maybe excepting cults which may or may not have a suitable counts as equivalent, depending on the opinion of the player running them. But if you want to run marinish stuff and daemon engines, daemon princes, and other archetypal 'chaos' stuff, then you make sacrifices. If one is asking how to use chosen, then it's safe to say that sacrifice has already been made, and the 'do I run CSMs out of their own book, or proxy a loyalist book?' ship has already sailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Then again, terminators run better out of loyalist books, too. Not realy , at least not chaos terminators . Terminators in general ? Maybe in DA builds [but thanks to GW dakka banner is back to its OP glory , so DA work again ] or unbound lists . And of course GK . having a coteaz+draigo+5xpalas +5 termins+2xhenchaman rhinos +2 solodins, is a fun army to play for new people . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 In 6th edition running Black Legion to spam specials as Troops was a good thing IMO. With Unbound being an option in 7th it seems like a better thing to do would be to use regular CSM Havocs to do the same, since it's cheaper for 5 men with 4 plasma guns. Thinking that way, Chosen would seem to be power armour assault units in 7th, unless you really want your specials spam to be super-scoring for whatever reason. Spamming plasma guns should mean never having to share space with anybody you don't want to, so I don't see the benefit of Objective Secured for them. The best competition for the assault role is Chaos Terminators, as has been said. Terminators are cheaper and more durable, but Chosen can flood an opponent with an amazing number of attacks and then hopefully sweep whatever they just hit. Given that, it comes down to whether you like Terminators or Chosen more, and how many points you have available to make your preference work. Raptors, and Warp Talons might give Chosen more competition for use in Maelstrom missions with their ability to move faster, so that's something to keep in mind too. Bikers definitely. As far as cult troops, I'll take assault Chosen over Berserkers any day. Plague Marines are never a bad idea, but personally I would rather have more plasma going downrange, trading durability for killing power. All of that said, I love my Chosen squads. I sometimes run assault Chosen out of dual Land Raiders. Put Khârn and also maybe an Axe Lord in there to lead them, throw the concept of Objectives out of the window, and commit yourself to the Blood God. I used to run plasma Chosen a lot, but I'll probably relegate them to Plasma Havocs for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I was playing 2 units of 8 of them with MoS, IoE, and 5 plasma guns for a while. They were pretty tough against most things. The downside was that they could not target enough things at a time, it was hard wasting 5 plasma shots on a Land Raider then having it's occupants assault the next turn. I started running 4 squads of 6 with 2 plasma and 2 flamers. This seemed to be the optimal load out, they could shoot stuff up and were very resistant to assaults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Hey everyone. I had an idea to run a close combat squad of chosen with a couple flamers, combi flamers and a few power weapons that strike an initiative. Would adding a powerfist on a non champion be a good (realizing the unit is not super optimal to begin with) way to make sure the unit can threaten tanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Chosens worthy only taken to maximize your special weapons for melee no i suppose, You need LR to make a charge, so and +++points for special cc weapons, why not then play terminators design for this? Best set up are always 5xChosen Rhino with 4x plasma-melta-flamers, only like this they are working or with a heavy weapon and a rhino havoc staying backfield with More CC attacks if they ever have the chance to play melee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I'm a big fan of Special Weapon Chosen, and used them throughout much of 5th, the entirety of 6th and guess what I'll be using in 7th... I have... Iron Warriors: - 5 Chosen with 5 Flamers - 5 Chosen with 5 Meltaguns - 5 Chosen with 5 Plasma Guns Fallen: - 5 Fallen with 5 Meltaguns - 5 Fallen with 5 Plasma Guns - 5 Fallen with 5 Plasma Guns Most games I play involve the Flamer and Melta Chosen units, both in Rhinos. They almost never seem to let me down, whether it be nuking an expensive vehicle, killing a character or torching an entire unit. For 115 and 140 pts plus 70 for the Rhinos, they weigh in at 325pts all in (345pts with VotLW), which is a reasonable investment in points, but I've always found them to be worth it. I generally don't bother with melee weapon upgrades, primarily because I've never needed them. If I get charged Overwatch plus 3 basic attacks per model does the job pretty well. While assaulting they are arguably even better (I don't assault full sized units with them, they only charge to mop up survivors from their shooting attacks) with 4 attacks per model. I did consider a Chosen based army towards the end of 6th... it might still be worth a go at some point. Primary - Black Legion Combined Arms: - Huron - 5 Chosen with Meltaguns in Rhino - 5 Chosen with Flamers in Rhino Crimson Slaughter Combined Arms: - Voices Sorcerer with Malefic - 5 Ravagers with Plasma Guns in Rhino - 10 Cultists Fallen Formation: - Cypher - 5 Fallen with Meltaguns - 5 Fallen with Plasma Guns - 5 Fallen with Plasma Guns Any leftovers would go into a tank or two (Predator/Vindicator) to divert attention from the Rhinos, as well as dish out some extra firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Where would the voices sorcerer go? They can only join units of possessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Well, he'd hide out of line of sight and pump out daemons... The cultists could also be swapped for a unit of possessed... Alternatively the voices get dropped in favour of taking Telepathy or Divination. The other option would be to have a Warpsmith, just because the Mechatendril weapons complement the chosen reasonably well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 My biggest problem with plasma chosen is that plasma havocs are a lot cheaper. Chosen are paying points for that extra attack and extra combat weapon, so you may as well keep them with assault weapons. 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns is 165 points, while 5 Havocs with 4 Plasma Guns and a Combi-Plasma is 145, for the Chosen you're paying 20 points more for extra attacks that you wont really use. Well, he'd hide out of line of sight and pump out daemons... The cultists could also be swapped for a unit of possessed... Alternatively the voices get dropped in favour of taking Telepathy or Divination. The other option would be to have a Warpsmith, just because the Mechatendril weapons complement the chosen reasonably well. Actually, I've become a massive fan of the Warpsmith this edition. He pairs nicely with 5-9 man marine squads in rhinos with another meltagun and combi-melta! Plus having 6 power attacks on the charge is just brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 True... although Plasma Fallen are somewhat different as they pack Infiltrate for free... Being able to dump 10 Plasma shots into an elite enemy unit on turn 1 is pretty handy (even if you do manage to melt one of your own guys every once in a while ). I see the Crimson Slaughter Ravagers in the same light. With preferred enemy... they're filthy! I would take Havocs with Plasma... if I hadn't filled my Heavy Support with tanks and Obliterators already (in my regular list that is)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 My biggest problem with plasma chosen is that plasma havocs are a lot cheaper. Chosen are paying points for that extra attack and extra combat weapon, so you may as well keep them with assault weapons. 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns is 165 points, while 5 Havocs with 4 Plasma Guns and a Combi-Plasma is 145, for the Chosen you're paying 20 points more for extra attacks that you wont really use. The fact you have 3x slots heavy for 20points more than havocs(elites chosen) you still have 3x heavy slots +1 from allies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 My biggest problem with plasma chosen is that plasma havocs are a lot cheaper. Chosen are paying points for that extra attack and extra combat weapon, so you may as well keep them with assault weapons. 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns is 165 points, while 5 Havocs with 4 Plasma Guns and a Combi-Plasma is 145, for the Chosen you're paying 20 points more for extra attacks that you wont really use. Well, he'd hide out of line of sight and pump out daemons... The cultists could also be swapped for a unit of possessed... Alternatively the voices get dropped in favour of taking Telepathy or Divination. The other option would be to have a Warpsmith, just because the Mechatendril weapons complement the chosen reasonably well. Actually, I've become a massive fan of the Warpsmith this edition. He pairs nicely with 5-9 man marine squads in rhinos with another meltagun and combi-melta! Plus having 6 power attacks on the charge is just brutal. I've considered a Warpsmith simply for the Brand and flamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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