Platoon tactics

[Frater Cornelius]

So I am venturing into the dreaded wasted of an infantry commander. I have tried a few games and I noticed that I still do not get the hang of it to the maximum. I am just too much of mech player to have tried infantry tactics before.

 

Anyway, let's start with the most basic of basics: how do you run your platoon? Meaning, how many IS do you run, do you bother with SWS and HWS? Do you take 1 platoon or 2 platoons? Conscripts? Do you mech them up, deploy transports empty or do you bother with transports at all?

Also, what weapons, do you run the generally accepted AC + GL? Or maybe LC, Mortars? Help me on the way to enlightenment on the path of an infantry commander.

 

What I am mostly interested in is whether one can make an effective advancing platoon and how one can bring in cheap but effective SWS and HWS, as opposed to IS spam, regardless of their role, as long as they do it well. (comparisons to Veterans may be drawn but try to keep it at the Platoon and it's options)

[WarriorFish]

A very good question Immer, there are so many ways to run Platoons so I think that the best way to answer it is to talk about our usual lists. There is certainly no single correct answer! My usual "default" list is built around a Platoon and a Veteran squad at the minimum, most of the time a single Platoon can provide all the troopers you need and that lets the armoured contingent come from the HS and FA slots to support them.

My mantra as always is cheap but useful, and ISs can be done in the cheap easily enough - a special weapon and Vox for orders (if you want) will do. Flamers and GLs are dirt cheap and effective in BS3 hands and no heavy frees up points and keeps them mobile. I've also found that it reduces their threat in my opponent's eyes so they can get away with more. The big guns can be placed in the Vets or in supporting armour.

3 ISs is preferred, and the PCS runs in support with a couple of specials - again FL or GL. I prefer flamers as they often form a reserve to leap in quick and save the day, plus they can dish out orders. This Platoon can move forwards on the enemy and do it on the cheap, usually supported by some HWSs. My Mortar and HB squads do well enough for me, putting a lot of hurt on enemy infantry. I use to use a SWS but that slowly dropped off towards the end of 6th as I found them a little expensive for their base cost.

All in all the Platoon is quite resilient with cover and numbers and is dedicated almost entirely to destroying enemy infantry. This lets the rest of my army focus on AT and supporting the Platoon's assault. Chimeras will be for the PCS if at all (or stolen by the SWS when I used them) - my Platoons will yomp across the table leaving Veterans and the CCS to mechanise.

Of course, the Platoon can hang back if required or mill about the tanks/artillery to protect them if that's best but the key is to keep them mobile and working with other elements. So overall if I were to summarise how I like my Platoons it would be:

• cheap
• numerous
• anti-infantry focused
• works as part of a team

A few Guardsmen is seldom something to concern your opponent or win games - but as part of a cohesive unit working together they can do so much more This is from the 6th days chiefly though and I'm looking at 7th as a potential new start to really change things up so I'm very much looking forward to seeing what others have to say

[captain sox]

Hey warrior, great reply. I have these same questions being new to this army. So 3 infantry squads is preferred, but is more better or are you getting up there in points negating the economical aspect? Also do you often just run the 2 HWS?  

 

Do you have more than one Platoon?

[WarriorFish]

Thanks sox, it's just my approach though so I'm sure others have valuable Platoons to add too :D Platoons are flexible like the codex itself - I like more squads for redundancy and support. Working together is essential for victory so I run units as cells that work together. For example an IS with Hellhound and Sentinel support will operate together flushing out enemy infantry, capturing objectives and escorting heavy armour (such as a nice Demolisher) - all not to far from another cell so they can combine efforts. As we're always the underdog you should be ready to gang up on and bully enemy units as much as you can

The 1 Platoon and 1 Veteran squad is my usual list starting block, but I don't feel bound to it as a requirement or anything like that - just a good core to start a list on and chop/add accordingly. 3 ISs works for me most of the time, but maybe the minimum of 2 is fine for you? Adding more is ok, as long as they have a place in the army as that's the most important thing. As I always say you can never have enough Guardsman so the option to run 2 Platoons is a worthy goal to aim for with your collection - eventually! 2 or a maximum of 3 HWSs per Platoon for me, as they take up a reasonable amount of space which will be a problem with more plus there's only so many firing lanes and good cover locations especially with lots of infantry scuttling about.

Bearing in mind one of these is a Mortar squad too where LoS isn't an issue. Cheap and cheerful as I like them and surprisingly effective too; great for holding home objectives too and winding your opponent up (if he starts gunning for them then take full advantage!) Sticking to the anti-infantry and cheap goals it's Mortars, HBs and ACs only for my HWSs.

[scatmandoo]

I agree with warriorfish that one platoon and one vet should be all you need.

 

In my latest army in a 1k I had an infantry squad with a melta in a valk for dropping on the other side of the board to try and get a objective etc. And my other inf squad had a G/L and A/C and sat back able to deal with infantry and armour if needed.

 

If I have points I take HWS, but due to the toughness 3, and only being 3 bases, they can be easily countered these days and be an easy first blood for a knowledgeable general to take advantage of. Plus they can't have voxs so can only have commissars attached to improve leadership to improve order chances.

 

Another way is blobbing up a ccouple, attach and inquisitor with hammerhand and a priest and then they can be comvat worthy and outnumber and deal with marines on a good day.

 

Sws with sniper x3 Is a very cheap small easily hideable scoring unit too at 36 points.

 

For a laugh, a triple demo charge gang can be devastating for both sides but normally worth the risk and a great area denial unit if hidden from gunfire.

[ThatOneMarshal]

How many IS would you use if you aren't going to use combined squads?we sadly don't get that option in dkok siege list. Is there any time you would 5 IS?

[march10k]

Here's what I do:

 

1.  Deploy Chimera. 

2.  Place autocannon on top to mark the contents.

3.  Repeat steps 1 and 2.  

4.  Repeat step 3.

5.  Repeat step 3.

6.  Repeat step 3.

7.....

 

At least, that's what I did in 5th edition.  It didn't work in 6th due to not being able to score from inside a transport.  Now, in 7th, I'm still in the honeymoon phase with mechanized forward sentries spam.  At 20 points more than an infantry squad, a forward sentry gets +1BS, +1 cover, and doesn't come with a 3-squad minimum.  Overall, I think if you're playing mechanized, then platoons are better for fire support (with the autocannon firing from the hatch), perhaps while objective camping, but if you're going to have dismounted heavy weapons, you want forward sentries or grenadiers, and if you want mobile super-scorers, you want empty transports or you want mounted (with multiple special weapons) vets.  Infantry squads don't do well in moving vehicles because they only get one special weapon, and they don't do well on the ground because they lack chamelioline cloaks.  That is unless you're making melee-oriented blobs.  125 points for a chimera with an autocannon being fired from the hatch isn't terrible, it's actually spam-worthy, and if you need to, you can sacrifice most of the shooting to zoom over to an objective.  I'll try resurrecting my 5th edition list of two 35-man platoons, fully meched, but I suspect that the fact that empty transports super-score will lead me to the conclusion that they underperform relative to forward sentries.

[scatmandoo]

How many IS would you use if you aren't going to use combined squads?we sadly don't get that option in dkok siege list. Is there any time you would 5 IS?

Depends on points level and what your other troops choice are and what purpose you have for your troops. Do ypu want some hanging back with a heavy weapon and some going forward?

 

However many you think you need for the job double and even add 1 for good luck so attrition isn't an issue though always remember your support elements.

 

Afraid I don't have access to a krieg list. Where is the most up to date?

[Emperors Immortals]

I play CSM and BA but am looking to start an AM army ver very soon.

 

On the recieving side, I can say those AC teams are scary en masse, and flamer wounds add up quick. Both options force a lot if save throws, which even 3+ will eventually fail.

 

Large guard blobs in CC are also a nightmare, mostly because there easy to overlook but also the sheer amount of wounds and the fact its usually just pinning my sqads till the dakka gets there. Even Death Co can only kill so many troopers per turn.

 

Hotshot lasguns are also gaining a fearsome rep, apparently they don't listen to the internet criticism.

 

Something else I worry about is those scouting walkers, they can divert enough attention to stall an advance.

 

Just a few small observations from the othr side :D

[Andhil]

I run 2 distinct Platoons in my Hybrid army

 

Basic info that might be relevant:

-We usually play at 3K pts.

-I usually face one of these 3 armies: Daemons, Nids, CC Orks

 

1) a more mobile, yet footslogging Platoon.

PCS, Heavy Flamer, med, vox, banner, PW

3x IS, Flamer, Vox.

 

--> These guys are usually my advancing force, moving up front to claim objectives and harass the enemy's troops. Usually, most don't survive. Reason: See opponents. 

2) My stationary Platoon, designed with a WWI-ish theme, and also with Urban Warfare in mind.

PCS, Meltagun, med, vox, banner, PW

3x IS, GL, Heavy Bolter, Vox---> I prefer the Heavy Bolters over the AC's for 2 reasons: 1; fluff. 2: Higher # of shots.

Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Mortars

Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Autocannon

Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Lascannon

Heavy Weapon Squad: 3x Missile Launcher (now with Flakk, due to high # of FMC's)

--> These guys hold my home base, and any objectives in them. They're an excellent source of fire support, and with 36" Range on the HB's, they're capable of at least threatening small enemy units sitting on objectives on the other side of the table, the Mortars are a threat to large, weak (T3) Infantry units, while still having OS. The LC's, AC's and ML's are obvious, AT/ MC-hunting, preferably while placed in cover.

However, I am seriously contemplating making this a Mech Platoon later. 

 

Plus I run 2 Veteran Squads in support, one with Flamers to plug any gaps in the center of my line, the other Airborne with Melta's for quick, (semi-) reliable AT where it's needed.

[Frater Cornelius]

Interesting. I am specifically interested in advancing platoons, something along the lines of 1-2 footslogging blobs moving up front with priest and OX inq grenade mule and a CCS swirling about somewhere (to enable orders like better running, shoot + run, FRFSRF and things like that), while a few cheap SWS jack their transports and go forward to start harrassing and cover the platoon approach. For the 2 SWS I was thinking either 3 flamers or 3 meltas in a Taurox (45+50 and 60+50 points respectively) for a cheap way to either toast guys or tanks.

For the 2 blobs I was thinking 1 priest, 1 OX, 20 dudes, 1 vox, 2 nade launchers, 2 power axes, some psycher with telepathy in the hope that I roll Shrouded or Invisibility and 2 Taurox to hand it to the SWS.

PCS would get vox, Chimera and either 3 flamers or 3 meltas.

CCS would get vox, Chimers and 2-3 meltas.

I am still a bit iffy about HWS given their low numbers, low Ld, T3 W2 and inability to hide effectively, but if I were to take them, I'd take 3 AC for 75 points each, even though I feel that a Psyfleman Dread makes them a bit redundant. Still, am open to opinions.

Anyway, that would be my idea for an advancing army. Do you think 2x 20 + ICs is too few, even with loads of cover through advancing transports and other aggressive AV12 elements like HH or Sents, or should I go with 30men blobs (which seems REALLY hard to position given that I also have planty light armour)? I feel that even a 20man blob with axes and psystroke + rad nades and priest can do significant damage in melee for rather few points and still has the option to flashlight people to hell.

Or is the idea of an aggressive deployment nonsensical? I am just not a big fan of gun-lines. I prefer the image of brave men holding their banners high and charge forward being led by something hardcore (like GK) and being escortes by av11-12 tanks thundering into combat.

Another question that goes hand in hand with the viability of aggressive close range blobs is whether it's worth it to bring something that scouts a platoon (like a Grand Master who can scout himself attached to the platoon) or whether the mobility orders are generally enough to get them to whereever I need them to go?

[WarriorFish]

My squads rarely combine, I find that the additional mobility from having them independent more useful. They're not advancing alone with other elements of their cell so it's not much of an issue but without the supporting elements blobbing is more worthwhile.

HWS are kept few and cheap because there are many ways to take them out now as mentioned (Eternal Warrior would do them a World of good), plus people are less concerned with some more anti-infantry fire. I imagine it'd be a different story if I had loads of Lascannons for example... You can leave them off if you can put their heavy weapons on other platforms

I prefer the term "mobile" rather than "aggressive". They will be aggressive if that will win; they will advance if that wins and they will hold my deployment area if that brings victory. The key is having the choice I think.

[march10k]

 

I prefer the term "mobile" rather than "aggressive". They will be aggressive if that will win; they will advance if that wins and they will hold my deployment area if that brings victory. The key is having the choice I think.

 

This.  That's what I love about super-scoring chimeras.  By default, they are most effective when sitting still and shooting...but tactical objectives certainly override that, as a VP is more valuable than 2-3 dead enemy or a HP stripped from a tank.  But the point is having the choice.  I learned the hard way with my deathwing that building a list that only works if you're aggressively shoving 1850 points into a teacup (that happens to be held in your opponent's left hand) and saying "deal with this" is super fun, but usually struggles to win objectives-based games because your opponent can see what you're playing and distribute the objectives accordingly.  Gunline?  Objectives will be out of LOS and far from your starting point.  Low model count elite?  They will be scattered as far apart as possible so that you cannot simultaneously score AND stick together.  And so on.  So the key, as you say, is mobility and flexibility.  Even if sometimes you don't actually use that ability.

[Frater Cornelius]

Guess that is the beauty of the platoon. You have 3 deployment options within that one slot. Blob, all separate camping somewhere, all meched up going somewhere.

[march10k]

Assuming that you take the transports (you should!), that is. Otherwise your choices are mob, camp, or maneuver fragile-but-numerous squads independently.

[Frater Cornelius]

So, my current incarnation of the Platoon (and its support) looks something like this:

 

CCS, 3x melta, vox, Chimera ML/HF

 

PCS, 3x melta, vox, Chimera ML/HF

IS, Flamer, vox, sarge with axe, melta bomb, Taurox

IS, Flamer, sarge with axe, melta bomb

IS, Flamer, vox, sarge with axe, melta bomb, Taurox

IS, Flamer, sarge with axe, melta bomb, (possibly a third Taurox if I find the points)

 

440 without the Tauroxes, add 100-150 for the Tauroxes, 160 for the CCS

 

I run them in 2 20man blobs, each blob has 1 vox in it. Each 20man blob will be joined by a OX inquisitor with psyk-out, rad and psy-stroke grenades, a priest and a ML2 psyker to roll on Telepathy (shrouded and invisibility to help against dakka, Domination to help against anything and the primaris power to help with dakka since it is capable of split fire). CCS and PCS provide a bit of ap1 and anti tank fire and also block LoS with their transports and give orders to either move faster or shoot harder or something. That is 4-7 super-scorers and decent 0"-24" threat.

Still not sure how the 20man blobs + ICs are going to hold up if I roll poorly on Telepathy or if the enemy managed to kill my mobile LoS blockers very early on.

[march10k]

I'm not sure I'd run power axes in a small blob like that.  Other than that, looks fine!

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, I need to test the axes. It's survival greatly depends on how well I can position my vehicles and how well I roll on telepathy. If those 20 dudes + ICs get off a charge, between the Hymns, Zealot and grenades, they will even kill a Riptide on the charge. On Friday I have a 1850 game where I will test this setup. In the end, I still have the options to play a 40man blob. Platoon flexibility rocks.

I am also tempted to not go for that 3rd Taurox and instead give 'em all krak grenades because as of right now, my infantry list has some trouble against super heavies like more than 1 Imperial Knight (around 3 is a big issue) and the Stormsword (s10 ap1 apoc blast, ignores cover) if I do not roll Invisibility. With krak grenades and Priest in the 20-40 blob I can get a Knight down before he can stomp at I1.

[Frater Cornelius]

Would you actually ever bother with LC on a cover camping platoon IS? On the one hand AM has plenty access to divination with Primaris and allies to get a 75% hit chance for those LC and they can get orders to maximize it's efficiency. On the other hand, AC + GL has more shots, but useless against AV14 (but can glance to death AV13 with Bring It Down).

 

So, here are 2 Platoons

 

CCS, 3x melta, vox, Chimera ML/HF

PCS  3x melta, vox, Chimera ML/HF

 

IS, LC, vox, Taurox

IS, LC, vox, Taurox

IS, LC, vox, Taurox

 

or

 

IS, AC, GL, vox, Taurox

IS, AC, GL, vox, Taurox

IS, AC, GL, vox, Taurox

 

AC option is 15 points cheaper but useless against AV14, which will be plaguing the battlefield more often now, for sure.

[march10k]

Maybe in a blob with three lascannons supported by prescience.  Maybe.  That's a pretty big investment in three lascannons, though.  A squadron of three armored sentinels with lascannons is 60 points cheaper, though, and not subject to leadership tests.  I've fielded those in mechanized lists, and my opponent had a hell of a time with target priority...superscoring chimeras, AV12 lascannons, demolishers, or pask?   What to shoot at...?

 

Really, if you want cover-camping troops with lascannons, go for vets.  BS4 without prescience is much better for the points than BS3 with prescience.

 

/edit/

Lascannons are the space marine antitank weapon.  Guard spams melta and has demolisher cannons.

[Frater Cornelius]

So what you are saying is that the AC + GL version is superior, right? :D

[march10k]

Sure!

[Emperors Immortals]

So I should look at sentinals for lascannons, and use melta spam for everything less then AV14? Would spec.weapons squad be better then vet squad for melts?

 

Last question, is the speed if a taurox a good trade for the extra AV and las shots a chimera gets? Because it looks like move through cover and 4 fire points on a fast vehicle is superior for vet squads?

 

I'm just finally starting so ill probably ask a few mire obvious questions, thanks :D

[march10k]

actually, you have five options for meltaspam. Vets, special weapons squads, stormtroopers, PCSs, and CCSs.

 

Vets get three BS4 meltas, but they are a little thin on deployment/delivery options, no infiltrate or deepstrike, and no transport with three fire points. Special weapons squads get three BS3 meltas, are cheap, and really fragile. All of the downsides of vets and no upsides except cost and that they only take up six spaces in a transport. Stormtroopers are a little pricey, and (except for their command squads) only get two meltaguns, but they have carapace armor, they deepstrike, and they are BS4. PCSs can take four meltas, but then you have no meat shields, and they're BS3. Same deal with CCSs, except they're BS4, but they might be your warlord... my preferences are stormtroopers and mechanized non-warlord CCSs. BS4 is crucial, and I don't want to waste a superscorer on a suicide melta run. That means, for me, vets, special weapons squads, and PCSs are out.

[Kierdale]

I was considering, and have actually made, a quad-melta CCS for dropping out of flyers. I figured four BS4 melta guns and the orders would be good.

However I wonder if a Scion command squad isn't the best bet? Though both can have carapace armour, the fact that you can Deep Strike scions without a flyer and that whether deep struck or grav-chuting in, Move Through Cover makes them land softer...

 

125 points for a quad-melta Scion command squad

110 points for a quad-melta CCS with carapace armour

120 points if you throw in camo too...

(Allowing for the officer to take them, that is)