The II Legion Theorycrafting (Units, Traits and Rite of war)

[Ammonius]

Great work on the art and sculpt! When I look at the artwork I ask myself: what did he do to be stricken from all records? Pretty awesome :)

[depthcharge12]

Where points costing - I'd say somewhere around 500-510 would be suitable, he's evidently (and rightfully so) mullered by Horus BUT is above or on par with every other Primarch you went against (I recommend you trial him against some of the slower but tougher Primarchs like Vulkan & Ferrus or faster like Corax & Curze), so a reasonably high points cost works well, more so with the other unit/areas buffs he has.

 

I would love to see rules for the No-Dachi (maybe your specialist unit akin to Palatine Blades as No-Dachi are incredibly hard to master, even more so than Katana) at which point I would be thinking a unit with this stat-line: Blade-Master - WS/5 BS/- S/5 T/4 I/4 W/2 A/3 LD/10 SV/3+ FNP/5+ - unsure of points costing though.

 

No-Dachi rules: +2 S on charge (yes this makes them S/7 but a No-Dachi outsizes a Katana by a lot, the warrior who used them were purely shock troops) but -1 I on all subsequent rounds of combat (this was equally true as although great swordsmen the sword itself was not designed to be used in close quarters fighting for long...) - I feel this would suit the fluff and give sensible +/- to the weaponry.

 

I'd also entertain the idea of a small unit using the Naginata (chinese-based polearm used to great effect as both attacking & defending weaponry with sufficient reach to combat cavalry (a great need during the Boshin War) and short & powerful enough to combat swordsmen with Katana) - unsure about rules but something along the lines of the GK Halberds (as a Halberd was in effect the Western/European equivalent) so +1 I, perhaps +2 I on the charge (shows a devastatingly fast but not overtly powerful first attack) and then base I on further rounds (so on par with generic warriors as the length of the weapons would be less of an advantage) - perhaps +1 A VS MCs to show the added strength via unit coherence (3 long-bladed weapons can do more damage to one large target than 3 short-bladed in theory...).

 

Hope that helps...

 

Tom

 

 

I hear that Yes-Dachis are waaaay more fun to use and more positive ;)

[Russ Brother 92]

@Ishagu - I feel that for those rules (I do rather like them) 440 is a tad low - perhaps 460 so he's in that top tier of costing, his Sire rules are exponential and his own combat rules are Imo. equally good.

[Ishagu]

You might be right that 440 is a bit low. 460 - 480 could be more of the correct pricing like you suggested.

 

I like the idea of him being able to modify his fighting style. Being able to increase his strength or speed depending on enemy is nice, but I really don't feel that he should be as fast as Fulgrim and as strong as Angron at all times. By switching stances it gives a tactical element whilst still being able to deliver the same speed or punch as those Primarchs.

 

Anyways, I'm glad you approve of the rules I wrote up. The template was already there so don't give me a too much credit!

[Athrawes]

@Ishagu: thank you so much for the effort you put into helping me craft balanced and fun rules. I'm definitely going to do a few test combats with your take on the rules.

 

On the whole, I like a lot of the tweaks you have made to his rules. So far, the only things I'm really not 100% on is his decrease from mastery level 4, as the Tarot interpretation for him shows him to be the only Primarch whose psychic potential comes close to Magnus (who will most likely be lvl 4 with some major buffs)

 

Also, I don't really think he should have free range access to all psychic disciplines, as that is sort or anathema to his (and the Madrigal view) on psychic powers. I still prefer the idea that he only has full access when rolling for psychic powers to Divination and Sanctic. But to show a Primarch's Mastery of Psychic disciplines (even those who does not favor), he can exchange any of his psychic powers for the primaris power of any discipline aside from Malefic. it gives him a bit of tactical flexibility, but clearly shows a restricted mastery of psychic powers when compared to Magnus or even Lorgar.

[Ishagu]

@Ishagu: thank you so much for the effort you put into helping me craft balanced and fun rules. I'm definitely going to do a few test combats with your take on the rules.

 

On the whole, I like a lot of the tweaks you have made to his rules. So far, the only things I'm really not 100% on is his decrease from mastery level 4, as the Tarot interpretation for him shows him to be the only Primarch whose psychic potential comes close to Magnus (who will most likely be lvl 4 with some major buffs)

 

Also, I don't really think he should have free range access to all psychic disciplines, as that is sort or anathema to his (and the Madrigal view) on psychic powers. I still prefer the idea that he only has full access when rolling for psychic powers to Divination and Sanctic. But to show a Primarch's Mastery of Psychic disciplines (even those who does not favor), he can exchange any of his psychic powers for the primaris power of any discipline aside from Malefic. it gives him a bit of tactical flexibility, but clearly shows a restricted mastery of psychic powers when compared to Magnus or even Lorgar.

That's absolutely fine. To be honest I was most unsure about how to handle his psychic powers. I actually like the limiting factor on disciplines you thought up. I'm just wary of a Primarch able to cast a D power vortex :-P

Glad you like the rest of the rules I wrote up. I really enjoy thinking up ways to make characters and units balanced.

The Primarchs are tough as they are all so powerful anyways!

[Athrawes]

None of the Primaris Powers have strength D though. Just vortex of doom in Sanctic, but that would have been a possible power in both your and my Psychic power lists.

[Trydragon]

Not sure if your Still Looking for Input but here my 2$ I tried to keep the flavour of your original list I really like your Take on the 2nd and wish you all the best, in getting the rules ironed out.

 

Icarion the Stormborn, the second son, the guiding star, the storm's eye - 455 points(ammended)
-WS7 BS5 S6 T6 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 SV3+

 

Unit Type:
• Infantry (Character)

Unit Composition:
• 1 (Unique)

Equipment:
• Time-lost Aegis

• Twin Swords

• Thunderchild
• The Sphere

Special Rules:
• Primarch
• Sire of the Thunder Guardians
• Bulky
• Pysker (Level 3)
• Artful Mind

 

Time-lost Aegis
The Time-Lost Aegis is a beautiful and lightweight suit of psychically infused admantium and ceramite plates. Inlaid with powerful psychic wards and myriad of focusing crystals, the Aegis is said to enhance it's bearers psychic foresight to supernatural levels.

The Time-Lost Aegis Confers a 3+ save and a 4+ Invulnerable save. In addition at the beginning of the Psychic Phases the Armour can imbue Icarion with ether +1 Psychic Dice or the Ability to reroll any failed save of a 1 until the begin of Icarions next Psychic Phases.

Thunderchild
One of many technological relics said to have been claimed by a Young Icarion during his expeditions to the dangerous and mysterious techno-vaults of Madrigals past Golden age. Thunderchild is potent spear said to have come from the personal armoury of the long since vanquished Thunder king. The weapon throbs with untapped potential and a talented psyker can channel that energy into arc lightning that strikes nearby foes.


Weapon            Range  Str  AP  Type
Thunderchild       -        +2    2    Melee, Force, Master-Crafted, Concussive
Arc lightning      12”      6     5    Beam, Master-Crafted, Haywire

The Sphere
Perhaps the most esoteric device carried by Icarion. The Sphere is a relic from an aeons dead civilization believed to have once ruled the galaxy. It's intricate workings have both impressed and confounded the greatest minds of the Martian Mechanicum and, it is whispered that a mercurial sentience lives within The Sphere that may choose to aid it's wielder.

At the beginning of each turn, Icarion must role to determine the benefit granted by The Sphere. These benefits remain in effect until the beginning of your next turn. Icarion always begins the game with one of these effects activated.

D6
1 Nothing
2 Rage

3 Preferred Enemy (All)
4 Hammer of Wrath

5 3+ Invulnerable Save
6 Ignore first Perils of the warp

 

Sire of the Thunder guardians

When Icarion is in play all friendly models from the same Thunder Guardians detachment have the adamantium will special rule. In addition any Thuder Guardian with in 12' of Icarion are Stubborn.

 

Artful Mind
Icarion may roll for 3 Psychic powers from the Divination or Sanctic psychic Disciplines. Additionally, when generating psychic powers, he may opt to replace any of his psychic powers with the Primaris power of ANY psychic discipline.

[Athrawes]

Hey guys, I decided to reopen this thread instead of starting a new one.

 

​I was hoping to get some input on Legion Traits and a Rite of War to represent my Lightning Bearers on the Tabletop. Whatever we can come up with will hopefully be tested in a 2000pt game against depthcharge12 next week.

 

Below is the framework that I have been working with:

 

Legiones Astartes (Lightning Bearers)

 

All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:

·      Legiones Astartes: Units with this special rule may always attempt to regroup at their normal Leadership value, regardless of casualties.

·      Battle-Scrying: All units with this rule gain the brotherhood of Psykers (Level 1). Praetors and Librarians may choose to purchase additional mastery levels at the cost of 20pts per level, up to 3 levels. When generating psychic powers, Librarians and Praetors may choose from the Diviniation and Sanctic Deamonology disciplines. All other units may only choose the Divination Primaris power: Precience.

 

 

 

Lightning Bearers Unique Rite of War:  Storms Wrath

 

Effects: 

• Fated Moment: The controlling player may reroll the dice to see who goes first/ deploys first if this is part of the mission being played

Limitations:

·      With the exception of the Librarian type, detachments using this Rite of War may only take a single consul as part of their HQ choices.

·      Detachments using this write of war may not take allied Space Marine Legion detachments.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Do Librarians have access to all other non-Malefic 7th edition rulebook disciplines? If not, why not? Divination is only slightly less useful than Telepathy after all.

 

In regards to  Brotherhood of Psykers - that's INSANELY powerful. The benefit isn't necessarily being able to cast Prescience - it's more to do with the free Power Dice.

 

If you were to use with Kitwulfen's idea as well for all units counting as under a Psychic hood, then he has pretty much an eternal 3++, but also you turn off the enemies Psychic Phase - Adamantium Will, Mastery 3, and Psyker means you Deny the Witch on a 3+. This pretty much just NOPEs an entire phase of the game, and completely invalidates a particular unit choice - and is akin to saying "Feel No Pain doesn't work", or "you can't shoot anymore". In regards to things like Night Lords versus Death Guard, their fear rule is only a minor building point, but to essentially say "nope" to anything that's not Magnus, Lorgar Transfigured, or a Greater Daemon/Prince (and even then, on a 4+ shut those down reasonably often) seems a tad too overpowering, even for a Primarch. Of course, it's also completely binary in that against people without Psychic powers, all that is wasted.

 

I'd personally provide Brotherhood of Psykers special rule to Characters - that way, if the Sergeant is in the squad, he can unlock the squad's Psychic potential, but leave him at risk of getting pinged by Precision Shots and shutting off the Psyker's potential. It actually gives people a chance to challenge.

 

Also, a Praetor is Mastery 3 for 160pts, and has +1 WS, Wound, Attack, Ld, Sv, and better options over a Librarian (Digi Weapons, Paragon Blades, Iron Halo's etc), while a Librarian cannot be the Warlord, has the weaker statline and costs 135pts in return for a free Forcesword? There's really no point in taking a Librarian with that rule. Maybe allow Librarians to be warlord and/or allow Mastery 3 (Praetor's limit Max 2).

 

What downsides do you consider having? Perhaps their ability to see the future makes them more nervous? Perhaps being forced to take Pinning and Regroup checks at -1Ld?

 

The Rite of War is not really a Rite of War. It's a neat little side benefit (see Alpha Legion), and the penalty isn't really a penalty. Saying you can only take limited non-Librarians is like saying World Eaters have to take a few melee units. It's a false penalty, like back in the way people tried to minmax points by cutting points from Initiative when equipped with Power fists, or Ballistic Skill without having ranged weapons. It's not going to happen.

 

If I was to do it;

 

Legiones Astartes (Thunder Guardians)

- Legiones Astartes; standard

- Battle Scrying; Thunder Guardian Librarian Consuls may take up to 3 levels of Psychic Mastery, rather than 2, but if they do so, at least one power must be generated from Divination. In addition, all characters gain the Brotherhood of Psyker's (Mastery level 1) special, but must select Prescience as their only power known.

- Led by Oracles; Librarians lose the Legion Support Officer rule.

- Future-fear; Knowledge of the future encourages prudence rather than foolhardiness; All regroup and pinning tests taken by models with this rule suffer a -1Ld penalty.

 

Storm's Wrath

Effects;

- When using the Standard Deployment Method in the Warhammer 40K rulebook, the player of this Rite of War may always choose to deploy first or second.

- All characters are considered equipped with Augury Scanners (whether or not they are normally allowed to take them) for free, and all friendly vehicles with the Command Tank upgrade can gain the Seer Pilot upgrade for free.

- All friendly units arriving by teleport only when Deep Striking will not scatter, if they choose to arrive within 6" of a friendly model with either the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers or Psychic Pilot special rule.

- Librarians with this Rite of War may only select powers from either the Divination or Daemonology Sanctic powers. Each Librarian must choose one discipline to generate his powers from, but if choosing Sanctic, you do not generate Psychic Focus.

Limitations;

- No allied detachments.

- With the exception of the Librarian type, detachments using this Rite of War may only take a single consul as part of the HQ choices.

- Chaos Theory; The actions of one could seemingly random cause much more serious events, and like a raindrop upon the skein of reality, the unleashing of the legion's psychic might has dangerous consequences on the other side of sanity; all Perils of the Warp tests automatically count as rolling a 1.

 

Upgrades;

 

Soothseekers; Soothseekers are among the most capable soldiers in the Legion's arsenal. In other Legions, like the Dark Angels, the Praetors are immensely skilled swordsmen of untold valour, or the White Scars who can command their Tumen's and Brotherhoods to move like oil on water, or the berserker animal-kin cunning of the Space Wolves, or even the Thousand Sons, whose leaders practise the most devastating forms of psychic battle mastery ever seen, it is the Thunder Guardians Soothseekers who are more subtle in nature, increasing the power of their legion's latent abilities rather than being directly powerful themselves. Becoming a Soothseeker costs 40pts for a Legion Praetor and causes all of their melee weapons to gain the Force special rule. In addition, their Brotherhood of Psyker's mastery level is 2; one power known must be Prescience, the other is generated normally. 

 

Seer Pilot; Any vehicle (with the exception of those with the Drop Pod Assault special rule) may take this upgrade for +20pts. Doing so grants them the Psychic Pilot (Mastery 1) special rule. Such models only know the "Projection" Psychic Power.

 

"Projection" - Warp Charge 2

 

Seer Pilots are those Legionaries who show particular adaption to reading the threads of the future, but fail to complete their training to the full Librarius. Instead, they fulfil a niche role within the Legiones as being able to target those striking from the most illogical of methods, whether it's via orbital launched drop pod, tunneling termites, or even empyrean teleporting, in the same manner as some legions make use of anti-air defences.

 

Projection is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect the Psyker gains the Interceptor special rule.

[simison]

I had actually forgotten about the similarities between our two legions. Anyway, most legions have around 3-4 legion tactics, besides legiones astartes. Usually benefits with 1 or 2 drawbacks thrown in, depending on how useful the benefits are. Besides psyker abilities, were there any other aspects you wanted to emphasize for the Lightning Bearers?

[Athrawes]

@ Hesh Kadesh: Wow that is some awesome work, and exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I really appreciate it. If you followed my blog, the choice to limit the majority of the psychic powers to divination specially Prescience is a background one. based on the Tarot-Primarch Theory.

 

I really like your idea of future fear, I feel like that could expanded to include some kind of "overconfidence due to seeing a misleading vision" which could also be a detriment.

 

For the legion rite of war, Chaos Theory seems brutal however. Auto failing perils of the warp tests would absolutely obliterate this army, with all of the warp charge dice being generated and used, it seems like perils of the warp would come up more as a natural consequence which is kind of the balancing factor of generating so many warp charges. Making them auto fail, seems too punitive to me but I do like the idea of a confluence of so many psykers wearing the warp thin around them.

 

@Simison: aside from the legions studies toward battle-scrying and divination, in their lore they have a predilection for void-warefare and close quarters martial training. I was leery of adding anything to represent these two things rules wise because of how powerful Brotherhood of psykers can be.

[apologist]

I love the tarot-card interpretation you've used, and thought going to the source might help. My suggestions here might point in a different direction to the work you've already done, so let me preface this by saying I intend theses suggestions more as a thought-exercise than as a concrete plan. I suspect somewhere in the middle of the ideas listed above and those I moot below might help create something really unique. :)

 

The Primarch

 

 

The High Priestess is the main rival of the Magus, and the only who frequently shows himself utterly beyond the Magus's comprehension. The High Priestess is effortlessly capable of bursting the Magus's bubble, and though this is frustrating it stops him becoming too arrogant. The Magus is best able to translate the High Priestess's mystic insight into a more immediately understandable form. Together, they represent absolute control (Magus) and understanding (High Priestess) of the Warp.

 

This to me suggests that Icarion is a foil for Magnus, but not necessarily in a direct X=Y way. Instead of focussing on his psychic ability, you might consider having Icarion with a series of permanent 'auras'. While he'd still be a psyker for rules purposes, you could take some prompts from FW's Navigator, who simply manifests powers rather than conjuring them (if that makes any sense!)

 

So, instead of having him as a Mastery 4 psyker with access to the various disciplines, you essentially give him a series of passive abilities that interact beneficially with the Lightning Bearers, and negatively with their opponents. That would mean that Magnus and Icarion's battlefield psychic prowess aren't really directly comparable, and prevents the idea falling into 'he's too strong/weak compared to X'. It's also a way to create a genuinely unique combination.

 

 

 

All direction, and misdirection. The Magus masterfully directs whatever force he encounters to his own ends, but this does not mean he truly understands it. He is simply able to point it in the direction he thinks it should go.

 

This quote helps reinforce the idea that the psychic ability is on some instinctual level – though it has to be borne in mind, the whole essay is figurative more than literal. I love the idea that Icarion is a powerful psyker but what makes him a rival to Magnus is that he has underlying abilities that make him more 'native' to the warp.

 

For example, if he's Mastery Level 2 – a top-level tabletop psyker – he appears much weaker than Magnus. However, if he's Mastery Level 2 but has some sort of bonus, he'd give more of an impression of being unique. As examples: perhaps he can pick whatever powers he likes, or manifests one power a turn for free, or all ranges are doubled, or he can re-roll any psychic dice he wishes etc.

 

Having a Marneus Calgar-like ability to pick Warlord Trait, re-use an army-special rule, or allow his men to pass/fail LD tests would make him a very impressive figure, and a natural rival to Magnus without simply beefing him up the obvious way (by making him ML4).

 

The Legion

Following on from my suggestion to step back and take a different approach to Icarion, I suggest that you remove the inherent psychic ability (Brotherhood of Psykers) from the Legion, and instead try a different route. Apart from anything else, it helps draw the line between the Legions and removes the risk of the Lightning Bearers becoming 'Thousand Sons-Lite'.

 

 

 

At best, a supreme and hugely adaptable intellect, capable of solving problems almost before they appear, a masterful sorceror and an excellent if eccentric tutor.

At worst, indrawn, secretive, a cunning and hidden manipulator, convinced of his methods and arrogant in his superiority, viewing all things as tools to be used in his pursuits.

 

While applying to Icarion himself, these summaries are great to suggest strengths and weaknesses of the Legion. The description above suggests you might look to the Ultramarines and Alpha Legion for suggestions on Legion rules.

 

Of course, given the (fantastic) background you've developed, it's also important that psychic power is visible through the Legion. I suggest you try something inspired by the 'instinctual knowledge rather than learned teachings' idea; and tie it into the idea of mutual overlapping buffs. Giving the Legion an geneseed-borne affinity with the warp might impart Adamantium Will, and provide an additional Power Die to the pool if joined by a Psyker IC. That's a way to encourage the use of Librarians etc., but is more subtle than simply handing out large amounts of Brotherhood of Psykers, which can negatively affect the game and doesn't scale well.

 

That's just an example; there's plenty of other ways the inherent psychic nature might be manifested: their close combat attacks cause blind, perhaps (psychic flashes that fits nicely with the Lightning idea, too!); or any IC joining a unit gains Psyker and Prescience while he remains part of the unit. There's loads of possibilities for direct representation without giving everyone Brotherhood of Psykers.

 

Personally, I like the idea of the infantry gaining jink. It's got a built in advantage with a fitting downside, and seems a fun way to represent an inherent foreknowledge of the immediate future without having to use the psychic rules for every model. It's also quick to play, simple to remember, and the opponent will already know what it does. Fits in nicely with the Lightning theme, too.

 

There's also the option of going for a less obvious approach, and that's to look at the Warlord Trait (WT) tables and Tactical Objectives (TO). Being able to force your opponent to discard a TO card, or to select two instead of one, is a big bonus to you, and fits right in with the secretive and manipulative idea of the Legion as spelled out above.

 

The Tactical and Strategic WT tables have lots of inspiration for Legion rules; and the Command WT table seems a great source of possible 'auras' for Icarion himself if you decide to go that route. 

 

Anyway, lots there – I hope some of it comes in useful in helping you refine the ideas to make a set of rules that fits your kick-ass army! :)

[Raktra]

I had actually forgotten about the similarities between our two legions.

I just read this thread and got a little startled at how much crossover there was. If another thread for the XIth that ignores Feel No Pain pops up we'll know there's a conspiracy going on.

 

Oh, and followed.

[depthcharge12]

Speaking from experience of playing against him with prescience on all his guys, I thought it would be broken as hell at first, but then it made sense as it's harder to pass tests to get the power and prescience is WC2 now, which means a few units can use the power with greater success, or nearly all can try but not have a good chance.

 

The game was fairly balanced but I felt it helped out a lot on cc units as it's essentially a free chaplain, but less reliable.

 

Of course, I was able to keep him on his toes where a lesser general would have failed because I are a takticool jeanius :D

[Athrawes]

@Apologist: you always seem to have a knack figuring out what I actually want without even me being aware that I want it. Thanks for that!

 

I really agree with the idea to divorce the Legions abilities from psychic powers. Not only because of how unwieldy and powerful giving them Brotherhood of Psykers and that many warp charges can become, but also because of what I want them to be when compared to the thousand sons.

 

It is worth mentioning that giving each unit Brotehrhood of psykers (Level 1) and limiting their access to Prescience was less about trying to pigeon-hole the legion into a psychic role ala Thousand sons, but more trying to fit their innate precognitive abilities into the preexisting framework of the core rules without having to write a new special rule for them.

 

That being said, I do think that some version of the prescience psychic power should be given to the legion because of how fitting it seems, but  it needs to be divorced of warp charges. Using the Navigator rules as a basis, what about having it be active on a unit by unit basis with a leadership test during the psychic phase? 

 

This turns their ability which I have named Battle-Scrying from summoning a psychic power,  to attempting to read the flow of battle around them on an instinctual level.

 

 

At best, a supreme and hugely adaptable intellect, capable of solving problems almost before they appear, a masterful sorceror and an excellent if eccentric tutor.

At worst, indrawn, secretive, a cunning and hidden manipulator, convinced of his methods and arrogant in his superiority, viewing all things as tools to be used in his pursuits.

Just for clarities sake, I believe that the above quote is in reference to the Magus/Magnus. Not  the High Priestess.

 

With all that in mind, Here is take 2 on the Legion Traits

 

LEGIONES ASTARTES (LIGHTNING BEARERS)

 

All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:

·      Legiones Astartes: Units with this special rule may always attempt to regroup at their normal Leadership value, regardless of casualties.

·      Battle-Scrying: All units with this rule gain access the Prescience psychic power during their psychic phase. Instead of being activated with Warp charges and requiring a psychic test, units with this special rule must take a Leadership test. If passed, they receive the benefit of prescience until the next psychic phase.

·      Not Today: Models with the Legiones Astartes (imperial Fists) special rule have access to Jink.

·      Orochi’s Bane: Units with this special rule gain Admantium Will.

 

What I'm lacking however is a suitable punishment should they fail their leadership test and would be very open to suggestions.

[helterskelter]

D3 wounds at str 4 ap - against the unit no saves allowed? Keeps a risk factor but not incredibly damaging

[apologist]

Great - glad to be of help :)

Perhaps a failed LD test would simply stop any further attempts across the army? That'd encourage people to try with the experienced HQs and Elites first (fitting), then work down to the rank and file.

It's also a way of reining in the potential of giving Prescience to the whole army with the possibility you might fluff the first roll - making the warp difficult for your comrades to read!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Without some form of limitation, relying a Leadership is essentially Rerolling misses 5 turns in a 6 turn game for every unit.you have no limiter and there aren't many ways to force leadership reductions out of specific applications (usually for morale checks) meaning essentially you have no penalties and ld9 with sergeants still around is not hard to pass.

 

If you have some form of resource (perhaps Warlord taking ld check, at start of turn how much he passes by is the number of units that turn who can take the ld test, but even that isn't really a resource, as choosing the units you expressly need at the moment) then it becomes better, but I can't see why you don't simplify it and simply plagiarise the Psychic phase. If it is not Psychic Powers from whence they draw their power,then simply just say they don't suffer perils when casting. This is a gameplay balance over fluff. Plus it will get annoying otherwise and overly complicates things.

[Athrawes]

As i am working with the Coldwinter and the Forge Masters to create a finalized version of the Lightning Bearers rules which they plan to put in the beautiful Legion Appendix they have been working on. Link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299830-forge-masters-sanctum/

 

Here are some of the potential special rules i have been toying with:

 

LEGIONES ASTARTES (LIGHTNING BEARERS)

 

All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:

·      Legiones Astartes: Units with this special rule may always attempt to regroup at their normal Leadership value, regardless of casualties.

·      Battle-Scrying: ?

·      Vision of Confluence: Models with the Legiones Astartes (Lightning Bearers) special rule have access to Jink.

·      Yamata’s Bane: Add +1 additional Warp Charge to your casting pool each turn. Additionally, units with this special rule gain Adamantium Will.

·      Sorrow of Madrigal: For each unit with this special rule destroyed by the end of the game, award 1 addition victory point to your opponent.

 

 

I'm still having a lot of trouble sorting out the Battle-Scrying special rule, which is kind of the Legions most important rule. I like the idea that it doesnt neccisarily have to be represented by actual psychic powers but am having a lot of trouble finding a powerful but balanced version.

 

Here are a few options for consideration:

 

1.  All units with this rule gain access to the Prescience psychic power during their psychic phase. Instead of being activated with Warp charges and requiring a psychic test, units with this special rule must take a Leadership test. If passed, they receive the benefit of prescience until the next psychic phase.
2. (as option #1 with that addition that each unit may only use the power once per game)
3. Units with this special rule gain access to Preferred Enemy (All). A unit must declare their attempt to use this power during the Psychic Phase. In order to determine whether the unit casts Battle-Scrying Successfully, they must pass an initiative test.
4. Each unit with this special rule counts as a Psyker/brotherhood of Psykers with a mastery Level of 1. However, unless stated otherwise, they may only attempt to cast the Divination Primaris Power: Prescience.

 

Additionally, the Sorrow of Madrigal rule is meant to represent most enemies hatred of psykers. Another option of this negative rule would be to give opponents hatred or Zealot while in CC with the Legion.

 

I could really use your input on how best to represent the psychic powers of the Lightning Bearers, whether you feel one or none of the options above is a viable choice or perhaps offer a different combinations of ideas represent in the above rules, please let me know your thoughts.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Battle scrying nr. 1 is the best, its very balanced, and represents the 2nd pretty well

 

Dont limitate it to only once per game though, give them a debuff when failing the leadership test

 

Somthing amongst the lines of: -the unit receives a -1 ws/bs debuff till the end of next turns psygick face.

 

That is to represent, that they tried to see the future, but it was to confusing and they are all dissy or disturbed for a few moments, so making it harder for them to operate

 

 

Its balanced, and pretty fair IMHO...

[Raktra]

You could follow the new Sevatar ruling for his power - the Warp Charges only activate on a 5+.

[simison]

Vision of Confluence - Does that mean any model can Jink? Including regular infantry models, dreadnoughts, and Cataphractii terminators?

 

Yamata's Bane - So all Lightning Bearers get Adamantium Will? What if they already have it? Might want to make it absolutely clear that it's not +1 Warp Charge per LB unit every turn. Most people would understand the rule as it's meant to be, but the wording is just a awkward enough to allow power gamers to argue the point. 

 

Sorrow of Madrigal - So, any unit destroyed equals a Victory Point? Good gravy, man, I get you're playing the doomed legion angle, but that's a bit much! Giving Hatred to the entire enemy army also seems a bit overkill. I quickly reviewed four Legion rules, and I've found that the weakness is not giving a buff to the enemy, but a debuff to your army. So, tell me, what do the Lightning Bearers struggle with? Does their foresight distract them? Does the contempt towards psykers make them despair? 

 

Battle-Scrying - I really don't like 1 or 2. The first feels very overpowered, even Lorgar still has to deal with warp charges after Transfiguration. 2, has the same problem, but tries to compensate with one-shot deal. Still has the core problem. 3, also feels overpowered, but at least it's not straying from current game mechanics. 4, means a ridiculous psychic phase, but limiting it to Prescience (which can be difficult to get off and can cause Perils), I feels it make it reasonable. However, perhaps limit it to just infantry units.