Prot Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 ++edit++ D'oh I just caught the spelling of the "Lion". lol +++ This is just for fun, so don't get too riled up....! Me and a friend were talking about Legion backgrounds. We both read just about everything that comes out, especially the HH stuff.... He asked what I found appealing about the First Legion (background wise). I have to admit he caught me off guard because background wise I could not point to that many sources that actually appealed to me aside from the codex itself and a tiny short story where the Lion chops the head off a Daemon Prince. (whereas with Black Templars, Iron Warriors, and Space Wolves I could cite several sources). So my friend goes on to announce that by far he feels the Lion was an arrogant (curse). I said surely all of the Primarchs have an air of superiority. He said no, that the Lion was easily the worst. I asked for examples but he wouldn't really give me much other than some books that I am starting so I get the feeling he was keeping me from something..... He did say in unremembered Empire he comes off as a total idiot sending marine after marine to their death? (I was just about to start this novel). Is this true? I just stated that I felt all the Primarchs were nearly god like, and I felt most came off that way... to some degree. So what do you think? Is the Lion the most arrogant of Primarchs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I'd sooner describe the Lion as aloof. With his lack of social skills combined with the fact that he is a primarch and thus exceptional he might come off that way at time, but he doesn't strike me as especially prideful compared to the other primarchs. Most arrogant personage of the Heresy is probably Erebus, although he's not a primarch. Of the primarchs I might pick post corruption Horus, or maybe the Night Haunter. I like Kurze's character, but he does strike me as the most certain that his truths are the absolute ones, and most disdainful of his brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGXH Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Most arrogant? Probably Magnus. It's hard to get more arrogant than thinking you know better than Emps and have pulled one over on Chaos, for crying out loud. Lion doesn't come even close to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Magnus, the Khan, and Horus himself all have Mr. El Johnson beaten in the "Who was the most stuck up and full of himself" sweepstakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanyr Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Firstly, I don't recall Lion El'Jonson ever claiming or pretending to be superior to any of his brothers, or The Emperor. Though many of his actions appear to be "showing off", they often have an ulterior motive. Primarchs are virtual demigods, and The Lion's flaws are far less visible than many of his brothers. Given the setting, aloofness, distrust and suspicion may not even qualify as flaws, but highly desired personality traits. The first legion has been cited through numerous editions of codices and other articles as having the greatest number of victories throughout the crusade, only eclipsed by the Sons of Horus. While I don't recall any evidence that he was the firstborn son, or the importance of it considering the primarchs were grown artificially, that would also be another point of pride. If being arrogant requires a sense of superiority, than you could place nearly any traitor primarch above him and his loyalist brothers on the list. Despite all their flaws, they never pretended to be superior to the Emperor, or claimed that they would be able to rule better. The loyalist primarchs accepted his right to rule, and though the personal feelings toward him differ greatly, they still served him faithfully. Horus didn't even try to corrupt El'Jonson, I doubt he believed for a moment that he even could. Instead he sent him away where he wouldn't be able to interfere in Horus' plans. Instances of the Lion's Arrogance: On Dulan, the Lion selfishly stole Russ' right to zergrush the citadel of the Tyrant of Dulath. Instead utilizing a battle plan that had been carefully devised using careful observation and tactics ( the coward! ), and sweeping through the defenses achieving victory. Upon being suckerpunched for fulfilling The Emperor's command, he proceeded to arrogantly thrash the Wolf...Upon arriving at Macragge during the dark days of the heresy, and seeing the forces of Ultramar arrayed in flawless formation, he led his own force down to the surface and one-upped Guilliman. That the parade likely bolstered the morale of anyone who witnessed it ( Astartes or otherwise ), displaying solidarity amongst brothers in a universe being torn asunder by civil war, and gave the inhabitants of Ultramar visible proof that they were NOT alone...he did it because he's an arrogant jerk. Clearly.Slapping off your chaplains head. Now, this is a tough one. I would love to defend his actions here, but i think he just screwed up. He was losing his soldiers against an enemy he couldnt harm, one he had been told didn't exist ( but given his origins, like knew otherwise ), and his one weapon against them was within his grasp....and he was told he couldnt use it by one of his sons. Given that ANY primarch would be extremely sensitive towards any implications of treason, i think Nemiel overstepped his bounds. Did he deserve to die for it? Absolutely not, and i think the Lion realized that after the second or third bounce of Nemiels head. When all is said and done, I think that yes...he is extremely arrogant, but far from the most arrogant of the primarchs. I wouldn't rank him at the top ( Horus has that spot for primarchs, and The Emperor for the setting ), or the bottom ( Vulkan has that locked down in my opinion, with Corax being close ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaced Hulk Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Personally, I reckon Fulgrim wins the most arrogant Primarch award (both before and after his corruption). The Lion's just a bit socially awkward. Which was inevitable really, considering he grew up with only trees and warp tainted mutant monsters for company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Just an observation here: Most of you are picking Chaos turned Primarchs as being more arrogant than Lionel. I just found that very interesting, and perhaps very telling in itself. I'm enjoying the responses so far. /grabs popcorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djgoldsmith Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I have to agree with the above. aloof, confident and loyal spring to mind when I think of the lion. Can't quite get arrogant. Yes he is confident in his ability, and he won't suffer fools gladly. If anything, I would say he is a loner, that bit of praise in unremembered empire, sticks on the mind. Anyway, Magnus Definately arogant, the rest of the primachs i would calligraphie flawed (to extremes of good and bad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanyr Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I didn't select Fulgrim as the most arrogant on the basis that he and the Emperor's Children sought perfection, thus carrying the implication that they were well aware they were not. Granted, he does strut around like a peacock, and indulges in self-gratification as if it's going out of style, but he willingly chose servitude to Horus, and almost religiously sought improvement in himself and his legion. The acceptance that there is another more suited than you carries at least a hint of humility, which is enough for me to place him below Lupercal, who believed that he, alone, was worthy of ruling over the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. Can the Lion be arrogant, sure, but all the Primarchs are that way. They are Primarchs and even they and the Emperor don't seem to truly know the full extent of their abilities. Is he the most arrogant? Not from what we've actually been shown in the HH series. He's not even the only Primarch to countermand the Emperor's orders. One thing that I've found is that each reader colors their impressions of stories via their own personal "world lens". Most people also tend to not like to have a mirror held up too close to them either and may dislike characters that exhibit negative traits where the character may remind the reader of themselves in some fashion. And let's face it, wargamers aren't always the most extroverted, group oriented people and tend to have a somewhat higher opinion of themselves. The Lion may simply exhibit some traits that people are uncomfortable admitting in themselves and transfer some dislike to the character because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaced Hulk Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I didn't select Fulgrim as the most arrogant on the basis that he and the Emperor's Children sought perfection, thus carrying the implication that they were well aware they were not. Granted, he does strut around like a peacock, and indulges in self-gratification as if it's going out of style, but he willingly chose servitude to Horus, and almost religiously sought improvement in himself and his legion. The acceptance that there is another more suited than you carries at least a hint of humility, which is enough for me to place him below Lupercal, who believed that he, alone, was worthy of ruling over the galaxy. A good point mate On the other hand, even before Horus had fallen, weren't the Emperor's Children modifying their physiology? Trying to better the Emperor's own design? To me, that could be interpreted as arrogance at least on par with Magnus and his dabbling with the warp. I could be wrong (it's been a long time since I read Fulgrim) but I've always associated the Third Legion and their Primarch as being the epitome of vanity and arrogance. As for Horus, is it arrogance or madness? His character in Horus Rising seems far from arrogant. He's incredibly confident (as a Primarch should be) but by the end of the book he's displaying doubts and insecurities that make him seem human rather than god-like. As I said, it's been a while since I read the early HH books, but after the negotiations with the Interex fail (eg: after Erebius steals the anathane) doesn't he end up calling out to the Emperor, asking "Why have you left me to do this on my own?" That doesn't seem like arrogance to me. Obviously after Davin, everything changes, but I've always interpreted it as a corruption, as the Chaos Gods twisting those doubts and insecurities to suit their own ends, rather than inherent arrogance and ambition within the Warmaster. To be honest, I've never liked how Horus's fall was portrayed in False Gods. It's always seemed a bit too rushed, and too dramatic a change from the noble character of the first book to the leader of the Heresy. Lorgar's path to damnation was far more believable, in my opinion. Sorry if I've gone off-topic by the way . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 All the Primarchs should be depicted as MORE arrogant. I get rather annoyed with all the Horus Heresy series's extended sequences depicting Primarchs lost in thought, gently plucking daisies with furrowed brow, troubled at heart and rather vulnerable. If Napoleon can manage a bit of arrogance, I think surely the Primarchs can, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Yes, arrogance is Magnus's big flaw, but I'd say that in the areas of "thinking you know better than the Emperor" or "thinking you can put one over on Chaos" he doesn't have a worse case of it than Alpaharius, Mortarion ("I'm using sorcery as a business...to end sorcery as a business!"), Russ ("Obviously Nikea didn't apply to my guys, and now I think I'll go sort Angron out") and oh so much Jaghatai ("Thanks for the Legion, father, now I'm going to zip around the galaxy doing whatever I feel like because rulers get fat"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurieus Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 He was a brillant tactician, very quiet and was always a step ahead. But arrogant ? i dont think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. Can the Lion be arrogant, sure, but all the Primarchs are that way. They are Primarchs and even they and the Emperor don't seem to truly know the full extent of their abilities. Is he the most arrogant? Not from what we've actually been shown in the HH series. He's not even the only Primarch to countermand the Emperor's orders. One thing that I've found is that each reader colors their impressions of stories via their own personal "world lens". Most people also tend to not like to have a mirror held up too close to them either and may dislike characters that exhibit negative traits where the character may remind the reader of themselves in some fashion. And let's face it, wargamers aren't always the most extroverted, group oriented people and tend to have a somewhat higher opinion of themselves. The Lion may simply exhibit some traits that people are uncomfortable admitting in themselves and transfer some dislike to the character because of that. Speak for yourself buddy :P I'm a frat boy and have been asked to join the greedy, arrogant, and handsome conformers group lol Just havin fun with you but I totally agree and hate to see it when people try to trash the Lion. Unfortunately the Lion suffers from too many authors syndrome...which kinda leaves him all over the place. I like ADB's/Abnett's Lion who is cold and calculating but ultimate cares for his men and is just interpreted wrong by other primarchs because he can't express himself to them (it is very lonely having only 20 beings in the galaxy that are your equals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 The Lion isn't arrogant. He just doesn't have any patience for foolishness, so he might seem arrogant to those who are fools. The Lion knows his duty, and has no patience for those who would keep him from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Unfortunately the Lion suffers from too many authors syndrome...which kinda leaves him all over the place. I like ADB's/Abnett's Lion who is cold and calculating but ultimate cares for his men and is just interpreted wrong by other primarchs because he can't express himself to them (it is very lonely having only 20 beings in the galaxy that are your equals). A very worthy, valid point. That being said, who is the BEST author (specifically) of the Lion? Who portrays him in the best light as far as you're concerned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 His best portrayal is in unremembered empire, so it would have to be Abnett. That's not to say the book itself is any good though, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscipleOfCaliban Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 It always seemed to me like GW were trying to pull off a bit of a Jesus thing with the Lion: - Son of God (one of 21 but still counts). - Betrayed by one of his closest friends. - "Died" for their sins. - Will return for the end of the world. - Will forgive others (Luther). If that was all deliberate it would be pretty hard to pull off and not seem arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 ADB is the best author for the Lion, Abnett a close second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanyr Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 The Lion within Unremembered Empire struck a solid blend of superhuman ability and all too human flaws, so I'm going to chime in on Abnett's portrayal. For all their glories, I love the Dark Angels for their numerous flaws, but I've felt they suffered from being incomplete. After finally getting a full length novel with generous helpings of our primarch being portrayed in a consistent manner, I finally was able to build a cohesive image of what he's like. ADB certainly did an excellent job in all of his own portrayals, but Abnett's version of the Lion is the one that will likely stick with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 It always seemed to me like GW were trying to pull off a bit of a Jesus thing with the Lion: - Son of God (one of 21 but still counts). - Betrayed by one of his closest friends. - "Died" for their sins. - Will return for the end of the world. - Will forgive others (Luther). If that was all deliberate it would be pretty hard to pull off and not seem arrogant. Or the Arthorian legend. Ya know knights and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 ADB in Savage Weapons! Thats the best I have read, but thats because I have not read Unremembered Empire and it was such a glorious breath of fresh air compared to Descent and Fallen. I also liked Gav's depiction in The Lion - part of The Primarchs anthology I think every Primarch is a little arrogant, and should be. After all, they are superhuman Princes, conquerors of the galaxy and leaders of armies. But I doubt he was the most arrogant. I think its hard to measure, though, as it depends on what point in time we look at them. We might consider Horus to be arrogant in that he sees himself as the equal of the Emperor, while he also is shown to suffer from feelings of inadequacy; that he was not good enough. Or Fulgrim who is both striving for perfection but sees himself as better than his brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Arrogant? Definitely not one of the top but definitely top of the Loyalist Primarchs. I think his main problem is that he has no people skills and because of that caused Luther to be more susceptible to the touch of Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Or the Arthorian legend. Ya know knights and all.It's also very possible that the Arthurian legend was written in that fashion specifically to mirror the "Son of God" story to make it a more palatable transitional tale for the conversion of the "heathen Britons". :) So it's basically one in the same story. I think one of the big problems in defining the Primarchs as "arrogant" is that all we can look at them as is as humans. If they really are that far superior to a normal human, is it really arrogance, or simply admission of facts? This is compounded by the problem (that many authors have) that they are being written by beings that, through no fault of their own, are not that superior to the rest of humanity as a. Primarch would be, and so the writing of these beings tends to be "lacking" in some way for what each of us might thing a being like that would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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