Is the Lion the Most Arrogant of the Primarchs?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Depends on what you term as arrogance, to be quite honest. For example, I could consider Dorn's stubbornness and always being honest/thinking he is right as examples of his self-righteous and arrogant nature (aka: Perturabo's view). Or Roboute's opinion that he knew the best tactics, which he did, and that he took pleasure in tearing down a city because he was oh so the good boy.

 

How we view Primarchs is coloured by:

 

1) our perceptions of them from what we know, feel towards them because of their actions to our favourite chapter/legion. So, for example, Word Bearer fans are less of a fan of Gulliman or any loyalist Primarch (generally)

 

2) the perceptions of characters we read about of them, and from whose perspective we read. So we gain Lucius' view of Fulgrim in one story and Perturabo's in another. Or Nemiel's view of Jonson in one and Zahariels or Corswain's in another

 

3) how authors portray them, whether they are shown in a positive light based on that story, or are they a 2-D villain for the story. And if there are several different interpretations, the Lion being one of the worst of this.

 

These all add to how we view our Primarchs. So in one they appear weak, in others stronger. Its hard to say who is the most arrogant, all we can say is 'who was more tactically minded' or 'more arrogant' or 'better in close combat generally' rather than 'the most'.

 

Just my 2 pence

[Bryan Blaire]

I think if you are talking about the difference between the personal connotation for arrogance, sure, there can be different views. There's an actual dictionary definition (denotation) for arrogance though, so to be a truly defined "arrogance", it would have to meet that definition.

 

Brother-Sergeant Bohemond, you shot your own argument in the foot when you said "Roboute's opinion that he knew the best tactics, which he did"... It isn't arrogance if he's actually expressing something that is fact. What could be argued is whether he did in fact know the best tactics, but in a fictional setting, if "Word of God" (meaning author(s') statements) tells us that a character is "the best" at something, and that character expresses that as a simple statement, then the character isn't displaying arrogance, because we, the readers, know via "Word of God" that the character actually is correct (and therefore isn't being arrogant because he/she isn't inflating their sense of ability in whatever it is the discussion is about).

 

It isn't arrogance for any of the Primarchs to say "I am the authority that can order my entire Legion of Space Marines to their deaths"or anything else they want to say about their Legion, because that is, in fact, their place of importance. It's callous and cold, sure, but it isn't untrue, they aren't inflating their importance or stating anything untrue. They can, in fact, do exactly that, that's part and parcel to being "the boss" of a Legion.

 

It wasn't arrogance for Horus to say "I am the Warmaster, the leader of the Imperium's military forces, I have been placed above you, so the rest of you Primarchs do what I say." He was, in fact, granted that specific position by the Emperor. It isn't arrogance to state something that is true. It may not be the most tactful thing to do, but simply not being tactful doesn't mean that someone is being arrogant.

 

Now, if the question was "Is the Lion the most tactless of all the Primarchs?" then I would have to seriously consider saying Yes. He has almost zero people skills and he does seem to "tell it like it is" rather than politically speaking around the subject until someone gets the "messy" point he's trying to make to them. None of that makes him arrogant if what he is saying is the factual truth and he isn't making himself "more grand" than his position of importance really is.

[depthcharge12]

I think sometimes Abnett's Lion El'Jonson pulls ahead sometimes for the sheer fact that he "one-ups" Bobby G and Guilliman even looks up to him.

 

TAKE THAT MATT WARD!!!

 

 

"Of all my brothers that came to this world....why did it have to be him?" :D

[Wade Garrett]

Hate Guilliman?

 

Is that what you think of us?

 

Perish the thought. If a man thrusts a blade into your guts, do you waste energy despising the tool...or do you save your spite for the wielder? The EMPEROR killed Monarchia. The XIII were simply the tool he used for the task.

 

So why should I despise them? For their loyalty to the Golden Throne? The very throne we once worshipped? For their devotion to their Primarch, their convction that they alone know the path that will lead to mankind's salvation?

 

A fine jest.

 

Make no mistake...Guilliman and his sons are our enemies on a temporal and an ideological level. Their blindness and misguided loyalty to the Anathema has doomed billions and will doom billions more.

 

But for all that, they and their lord are to be respected. They are our worthy foes, sent by the gods to test our faith and devotion, and I bless them for it.

 

Without the lie, there can be no truth.

 

Without the struggle, there can be no victory.

 

So come, sons of proud Ultramar. March, march for Maccrage. Enlightened crimson or deceiver's cobalt, as we kill and are killed in turn our souls will unite with the Primordial Annihilator, our petty divisions will fall away, and there will be nothing but sacred carnage and the laughter of the True Gods.

[depthcharge12]

Hate Guilliman?

Is that what you think of us?

Perish the thought. If a man thrusts a blade into your guts, do you waste energy despising the tool...or do you save your spite for the wielder? The EMPEROR killed Monarchia. The XIII were simply the tool he used for the task.

So why should I despise them? For their loyalty to the Golden Throne? The very throne we once worshipped? For their devotion to their Primarch, their convction that they alone know the path that will lead to mankind's salvation?

A fine jest.

Make no mistake...Guilliman and his sons are our enemies on a temporal and an ideological level. Their blindness and misguided loyalty to the Anathema has doomed billions and will doom billions more.

But for all that, they and their lord are to be respected. They are our worthy foes, sent by the gods to test our faith and devotion, and I bless them for it.

Without the lie, there can be no truth.

Without the struggle, there can be no victory.

So come, sons of proud Ultramar. March, march for Maccrage. Enlightened crimson or deceiver's cobalt, as we kill and are killed in turn our souls will unite with the Primordial Annihilator, our petty divisions will fall away, and there will be nothing but sacred carnage and the laughter of the True Gods.

All's I hear Wade is:

 

"Blah Blah Blah, we are traitors, Blah Blah Blah, shoot us."

 

:P

[Wade Garrett]

Ah, one of Angron's get.

 

Fortunately, a son of Lorgar is taught to speak the Word to any and all potential converts, let me simplify it to something even a half lobotomized mouth breather can grasp.

 

"STAB ULTRAMARINES FUN! NO ULTRAMARINES, NO STABBING! YAY GUILLIMAN! STAB LOTS!"

 

Is that better?

[depthcharge12]

Ah, one of Angron's get.

Fortunately, a son of Lorgar is taught to speak the Word to any and all potential converts, let me simplify it to something even a half lobotomized mouth breather can grasp.

"STAB ULTRAMARINES FUN! NO ULTRAMARINES, NO STABBING! YAY GUILLIMAN! STAB LOTS!"

Is that better?

To quote a representative of Sparta:

 

"Too many words."

 

Coulda just said stab.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Gonna have to say that Unremembered Empire has one of my most favorite depictions of the Lion. ADB ties with it but I wish he had a longer sequence or story (we really need another HH DA novel to erase the first two from my brain) to fill in some missing bits.

 

Arrogance? Is the Sun a bright yellow ball of flaming gas? I mean they are all arrogant and in Empire the portrayal of the First Legion I think is awesome. Having him portrayed with a sense of awe kind of makes sense. He was built to be leader of the First. The First is described as having to be an "army" that didn't specialize in anyone thing and had to support themselves. That level of independence makes for several things in a Military Unit in my 12 years of military experience. First you get very good at relying on yourselves and not really trusting anyone else. Second if you get "special equipment" you don't share or tell anyone you keep it jealously to yourself and don't play nice because you never know what some other idiot is going to do with your favorite toy. Lastly you become extremely arrogant and confident as a unit. You've got all this "specialized experience" you get all your own fancy toys and get to go play with them however you want and as long as you get results the "boss is happy." Unremembered Empire, to me, portrays this perfectly.

 

Added to all of this the Lion is a superb swordsman who grew up on a wild untamed and "untameable" world. To survive on it you have to have a sense of confidence/insanity that is fully arrogant. "I am the biggest baddest :cuss in the valley." If you think it and prove it long enough eventually you become it. But to stay on top and keep it that way you have to keep that mentality along with lots of other political maneuvering.

 

Bottom line he's arrogant to the point of wanting to choke him out. But all the demigod primarchs are. LorgarI think is the most arrogant in an unfounded way. Sure they all are super humans who can leap tall buildings in a single bound etc. but Lorgar really didn't have much backing up his awesomeness except to mess up..........a lot.............badly. Not trying to bash your Legion Wade as I think they have a cool story but man that Lorgar could use some serious straightening out.

 

DoC

[Bryan Blaire]

DoC SGT, what you just described isn't arrogant.

 

Arrogant is defined as: Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

 

The key is "exaggerated". If it isn't exaggerated, then it isn't arrogant. If you really are that good, then you aren't arrogant (you are probably tactless if you are throwing around how good you really are in everyone else's face, but you aren't arrogant).

[Phoebus]

Gentlemen,

 

Arrogant is not about how good you are.  Arrogant is about how you express how good you think you are.  You can be absolutely exceptional and be very humble about it.  You can be absolutely awful at something yet still be incredibly arrogant because you think you are great.

[Prot]

Some really good arguments here so I have to finally put my own two cents in here:

 

First off I want to say that since I did not foresee that most answers would be Chaos Legion Primarchs, I'm redefining the question to not include Chaos dudes who look in the mirror too much. ;)

 

Guilleman defining the Codex Astartes might be construed as the greatest arrogance to me. Obviously this is debatable but let's remember a few Legions did not really adhere to the Codex Astartes in direct violation of Guilleman's decree (succumb to my manual of war or be destroyed).  Oddly enough Dorn capitulated but not because he believed in it, but more so the thought of annihilating each other further after the Heresy was lunacy.

 

The above is why I give the arrogance nod to G-man over Dorn. Dorn is close. He demands to be the one who defends terra. But at the end of the day EVEN Dorn had the humility to bow down to the Codex Astartes as defined by G-man.

 

There is a unique humility to the Wolves Primarch. They are the unofficial Marine killer. Dad has sent him after many a chapter, and perhaps more than we realize, but they do not relish the task yet have always (that we know of) completed their task.

 

Sanguinious? I really don't know enough about him.... We know he had wings and was ferociously loyal.. but arrogant? 

 

I still have to give it to the G-man.

 

The friend of mine who said he thought Lionel was the most arrogant wouldn't quite tell me why. I'm cracking open Unremembered Empire just this week so perhaps I will find out? 

[Wade Garrett]

The Wolves always complete their task?

 

Let's ask Angron and the XII about that. Hey guys, how'd that whole "Your sons will submit to mine and return to Terra?" thing go.

 

For that matter, any Primarch who can go "I have a plan. My plan is to get in Angron's face and wag my finger at him. This is the best plan ever." pretty much wins MOST ARROGANT by default.

[Komrk]

The Wolves always complete their task?

Let's ask Angron and the XII about that. Hey guys, how'd that whole "Your sons will submit to mine and return to Terra?" thing go.

For that matter, any Primarch who can go "I have a plan. My plan is to get in Angron's face and wag my finger at him. This is the best plan ever." pretty much wins MOST ARROGANT by default.

But he made his point so he did win...

Some really good arguments here so I have to finally put my own two cents in here:

First off I want to say that since I did not foresee that most answers would be Chaos Legion Primarchs, I'm redefining the question to not include Chaos dudes who look in the mirror too much.

Guilleman defining the Codex Astartes might be construed as the greatest arrogance to me. Obviously this is debatable but let's remember a few Legions did not really adhere to the Codex Astartes in direct violation of Guilleman's decree (succumb to my manual of war or be destroyed). Oddly enough Dorn capitulated but not because he believed in it, but more so the thought of annihilating each other further after the Heresy was lunacy.

The above is why I give the arrogance nod to G-man over Dorn. Dorn is close. He demands to be the one who defends terra. But at the end of the day EVEN Dorn had the humility to bow down to the Codex Astartes as defined by G-man.

There is a unique humility to the Wolves Primarch. They are the unofficial Marine killer. Dad has sent him after many a chapter, and perhaps more than we realize, but they do not relish the task yet have always (that we know of) completed their task.

Sanguinious? I really don't know enough about him.... We know he had wings and was ferociously loyal.. but arrogant?

I still have to give it to the G-man.

The friend of mine who said he thought Lionel was the most arrogant wouldn't quite tell me why. I'm cracking open Unremembered Empire just this week so perhaps I will find out?

Guilliman isn't arrogant at all... He's probably one of the most self deprecating primarchs out there. And the Codex Astartes was

1). A compilation of tactics based on every single engagement of the Great Crusade that he could get his hands on as well as most of the Heresy battles as well as his own in house war games.

2). Designed to prevent any one person from controlling hundreds of thousands of Space Marines ever again in order to prevent another wide scale civil war

It's hardly arrogant to push something that works AND Guilliman lost control of the most man power through doing this so he was also leading by example.

[Wade Garrett]

Russ made his point?

 

It that what we're calling trying to teach someone a thing and them failing to catch on until a third party spells it out to them in short sentences made of small words years after the fact?

 

If Russ's goal was to teach Angron a lesson - FAILED!

 

If it was to make the World Eaters stop driving their warriors mad with the Nails- FAILED!

 

If it was to get his butt kicked and have many, many Space Wolves killed- FENRYS HJOLDA! OUR GLORIOUS SUCCESS WILL BE PRAISED IN THE SAGAS FOREVERMORE!

 

And it's not like he learned anything along the lines of "Hmmmm. Maybe I shouldn't stomp around telling all my brothers to fall in line while bragging that my Legion are the scary Executioners who will go farther than any other Legion!" from the experience.

 

Just like after how after the Dark Angels saved his hirsute heinie from the Alpha Legion when he tried to take on the XX all by himself, his response was to go charging off to take on the Sons of Horus. Also all by himself.

 

When you're too arrogant to grasp simple pattern recognition, you're too arrogant.

[Prot]

 

 

Guilliman isn't arrogant at all... He's probably one of the most self deprecating primarchs out there. And the Codex Astartes was

 

1). A compilation of tactics based on every single engagement of the Great Crusade that he could get his hands on as well as most of the Heresy battles as well as his own in house war games.

 

2). Designed to prevent any one person from controlling hundreds of thousands of Space Marines ever again in order to prevent another wide scale civil war

 

It's hardly arrogant to push something that works AND Guilliman lost control of the most man power through doing this so he was also leading by example.

 

 

 

I honestly haven't seen the self deprecating version of Guilliman.

 

1) My remark doesn't question the material used to create the Codex Astartes. That compilation could have been written by anyone.

 

2) Again, my remark doesn't question the intent of the Codex Astartes and how much Gman stood to lose has nothing to do with the question of arrogance.

 

Some chapters don't really adhere to the CA so again... not sure how this line of thinking shows that Gman is arrogant, or humble.

 

My angle is not arguing for or against the CA. My argument is that any Primarch could have written such a thing. A humble primarch would have decided such a manual by committee in my opinion, not by yourself. That is indeed arrogance in my opinion.

[Hellios]

Russ, and RG always seemed to be the most arrogant loyalists to me.

 

I really like the SWs, but I don't like Russ. I know he isn't stupid, but it sometimes seems like he acts without thinking. He acts to serve himself, not necessarily to do what is best. Starting fights with other primarchs, and thinking he is entitled to things. It some ways this suit the SWs army of individuals. The SWs are very much about forging their own legends, and sometimes that comes as the expense of professional behavior,  and don't be fooled the SWs are professional soldiers.

 

I can see RG and the LIon getting hate for similar reasons; they are both great leaders, but neither of them seem to stand out as great charismatic leaders. The Lion totally lacks social skills, while RG seems to use way too much starch when doing his laundry. I can understand a lot of the Lions behavior, he probably has some sort of behavioral disorder. RG on the other hand... I don't get some of the things he does. I like to imagine he was trying to get Alpharius worked-up on purpose.

[Komrk]

Rules of Engagement and Unremembered Empire off the top of my head

[Azoriel]

It's worth noting that Leman Russ was one of the few primarchs who didn't immediately submit to the Emperor.  Of those primarchs known not to have submitted (Mortarion and Vulcan), Leman Russ is unique in that he didn't fail to submit out of mistrust but rather as a matter of pride - that says quite a bit, IMO.  Russ' pride was also what sparked the feud between Russ and Johnson (Russ wanted dibs on an enemy warlord the Lion already had marked), as well as (arguably) why the Space Wolves never bothered to implement the Nikea Edict or comply with Codex Astartes.  That's not to say he can't admit to his own mistakes (such as he was forced to when he challenged the Emperor to single combat), but I'd hardly call him humble.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Bryan,

 

First sorry about the symbols wont happen again. Second I have to disagree about the arrogance bit. While I do partially agree and see what you mean about if you truly are THAT good then it isn't arrogance, while the text book definition is that it is not arrogance, in my life's experience it is arrogance.

 

Anyway moving on to the Primarch who didn't go "evil" I would say G-man is a prime candidate for highest arrogance. Anyone who writes a "Codex" and then just expects everyone else to fall in line and accept it is highly arrogant. I mean these other Legions have their own traits and strengths and expecting them to just fall in line and accept his writ as law over the top arrogance to me. The Blood Angels did it because they were lost without Sanguinuis and need some kind of steadying guidance. The Dark Angles "did it" to keep from drawing attention to themselves and we see how well that's worked out. The Space Wolves could really careless what just about anyone thinks. Ravenguard and Salamanders use different tactics but also fall in line with the codex according to the game play but honestly I think that is more to make them fit in a market strategy, or whatever business term you want to use, than to actually apply to fluff and back story.

 

Great discussion.

DoC

[Aegnor]

Most arrogant primarchs is a difficult prize to claim when :cuss like Magnus, Fulgrim and Horus are running around. Hell, even Russ took it upon himself to tell other primarchs how to run their Legion. Speaking of which, Roboute also says hi.

 

Edit: and Lorgar! Gods above and below, the arrogance of Lorgar...

 

Edit 2: and just saw the post asking for it to be narrowed down to the loyalist primarchs, sorry that will teach me to read through the thread fully before responding. Of the loyalists, I'd say Russ has the Lion covered, and that the Khan might as well. The others are all pretty humble - as far as 12-foot-tall-demigod-works-of-genetic-and-sorcerous-genius-placed-at-the-head-of-a-legion-and-instructed-to-go-conquer-the-galaxy go. I'd have Dorn as the most humble.

[Wade Garrett]

Dorn? Well.....

 

Rogal:

"As I am the best siege master in the Imperium, the Imperial Palace I have fortified can never be taken by any enemy."

 

Perturabo:

"Blargle argle wargh!"

 

Also, I'm not seeing why people are claiming Lorgar is one of the most arrogant.

 

"Always, this modesty." Magnus's tone had the slightest edge of disapproval, perhaps hinting at a lecture soon to come. "You live your life for others, Lorgar. There is a line when selflessness becomes unhealthy. If all you do is raise others from ignorance, when is there time for you to learn more yourself? If all you seek is a greater purpose in existence, where is the joy in your own life? Look to the future, but cherish the present."

-THE FIRST HERETIC, p. 157

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I'd say the Lion has a sort of' older brother arrogance about him, or more so '1st legion to be produced' arrogance, he's always come across as a sort of older brother to me, eagre to help and show his borthers their folley, but would not like them to one up him, he would also more than likely not take on board his 'younger' brothers opinions as he would probably see them as a challenege to his seniorty, and no older borthr likes listening to the younger!

[FerociousBeast]

All right, this has gone on long enough without definition of terms.

 

ar·ro·gant  (r-gnt)
adj.
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See Synonyms at proud.
[Middle English arrogaunt, from Old French, from Latin arrogns, arrogant-, present participle of arrogre, to arrogate; see arrogate.]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/arrogant

 

The Primarchs ARE superior to everyone else. More important than everyone else. They are created to annihilate "inferior races," in this case, anything not human, despite how well advanced or peaceful a xeno civilization may be. They are immortal. They are commissioned by the Emperor to command vast armies. No one but the Emperor has the authority to gainsay them.

 

In the 40k setting, arrogance is entirely appropriate in their case.

[A D-B]

Gonna have to say that Unremembered Empire has one of my most favorite depictions of the Lion. ADB ties with it but I wish he had a longer sequence or story (we really need another HH DA novel to erase the first two from my brain) to fill in some missing bits.

 

That's the kicker, here. It's tough to compare when one author's had an entire novel with several key events and many other vital characters to play off, and the other's had a short story and a few lines in a novella.

[Prot]

ADB,

 

What is your favorite portrayal of the Lion?

 

Any chance you can fill him out in some future endeavor?

 

I have to admit I don't have a favorite portrayal and don't really understand his personality... thus I started the thread to get a better handle on him. (well it came out of a friendly discussion with a local guy who isn't Lionel's biggest fan. ;) )

 

 

 

 

++Off Topic++
You guys said the latest Gav novel isn't bad, so I picked up Ravenwing, again, so hopefully I can plow through it this time and give the new novel a look. But I'm thinking I won't get any insight on Lionel from these two novels.

 

After I fire through Ravenwing, I have Unremembered Empire by my side to start up. Going at my normal rate of reading at the level of a 3 and half week old baby, I should be ready for Unremembered Empire in 8 months.