Is the Lion the Most Arrogant of the Primarchs?

[Gillyfish]

Arrogant is actually pretty hard to determine in respect of the Primarchs, simply because they are all supremely capable. Each primarch has a range of flaws which could be mistaken for arrogance, but I'm not sure they are actually arrogant.

 

Let's take the Lion. He could certainly be accused of independence and being cagey, but that doesn't make him arrogant - he just doesn't trust easily and, in the absene of a foe he can easily fight, he takes the initiative and decides to ensure that no more of his brothers are rebelling. Aloof and taciturn might be better descriptions.

 

Guilliman is an arch-organiser and administrator. Yes he created the Codex, but that was out of necessity, not out of a sense of innate superiority (especially since it distilled the knowledge of multiple Legions).

 

Vulkan is quite prickly and dislikes some of his brothers, strongly disagreeing with their methods as he believes his path is better (as defined by his personal moral and ethical code). You could potentially argue that is arrogance, but is borne from compassion.

 

Sanguinius seemed pretty humble to me. Quite easy-going for a primarch and inclined to self-doubt. Not arrogant.

 

Ferrus Mannus single-handedly tried to break the lines on Istvaan, carrying on when the other Legions were falling back. Again, that doesn't seem to have been borne out of arrogance. However, he was also driven by a need to craft things perfectly, which meant he saw eye to eye with Fulgrim. But striving for perfection is not arrogance unless you deride everyone else.

 

Corax again doesn't seem arrogant, although we only really meet him once his world-view and his Legon have been shattered - inconclusive!

 

The Khan is a bit like the Lion in that he can be distant. He also is easy to anger and proud, just as Russ can be. Yet, that pride is tempered by the need to improve his ability to fight and organise, so much so that he listens to a human. He is a great warrior but prefers not to shout about it.

 

Then there's Russ who is fierce, proud and quick to anger, but equally quick to forgive and acknowledge his mistakes.

 

Dorn is perhaps an interesting candidate. He is proud and formal and can organise nearly as well as Guilliman, but he has a callousness that is intriguing. He also seems to be portrayed as standing on ceremony, which makes it hard to gauge whether he is arrogant or not. I imagine his Legion could appear to be so though, due to formality and the pomp.

 

So overall, none of them seem like ideal candidates for the charge of arrogance, in my view.

[FerociousBeast]

++Off Topic++

 

You guys said the latest Gav novel isn't bad, so I picked up Ravenwing, again, so hopefully I can plow through it this time and give the new novel a look. But I'm thinking I won't get any insight on Lionel from these two novels.

 

After I fire through Ravenwing, I have Unremembered Empire by my side to start up. Going at my normal rate of reading at the level of a 3 and half week old baby, I should be ready for Unremembered Empire in 8 months.

 

 

 

The Ravenwing and Master of Sanctity novels are both 40k novels, not 30k, so you won't learn anything about the Primarch from them. The Unremembered Empire has a LOT of the Lion in it, even though he's not the main character. The main protagonist is Guilliman and the main antagonist is Curze. But he's an essential element in the story, with more substantive pages devoted to him than in any other HH story I can think of. As a full Primarch anyway, discounting the pre-Primarch days on Caliban in Descent of Angels.

 

But as I've said, it's a very mixed bag. It shows the Lion in a very cool, unique way, but it then has one of the most ridiculous examples of extreme Keystone Koppery as in any of the Dark Angel novels I've read. Yes, it makes even Perturabo's Christmas Present look measured and wise.

 

 

"I think I'll just saunter on down to Macragge and have a nice little chat with my bro. Yes, I just primed my fleet to destroy the entire planet with the push of a button, and yes, I do happen to have an Evil Primarch loose inside my ship, but HEY! What could POSSIBLY go wrong? Hmmm?"

 

[Aegnor]

I think Dorn's judgementalism (is that actually a word) and harshness reflects his fear of failure, not arrogance. If he were arrogant, he would excuse himself from his harshness, but he is harsher on himself than he is on anyone else.

 

Lorgar on the other hand - Magnus sees it as selflessness, and in one way he might be right, but given Magnus might be the only primarch whose arrogance exceeds Lorgar's, I wouldn't necessarily find his view persuasive. Lorgar's arrogance is similar to Magnus's - the Emperor (who Lorgar believes is truly divine) tells Lorgar explicitly, on multiple occasions, that it is better for humanity not to venerate gods or to regard him, the Emperor, as a god. Lorgar reckons he knows better. Lorgar reckons its his destiny to lead humanity to a new faith that will be their salvation. When his first candidate for that faith falls through, he goes out to find a better candidate - rather than considering that maybe his destiny might not be to be that leader. He plans to spiritually reconfigure his entire species. That's an ambition equal to the Emperor's own arrogance.

 

I'm not saying that Lorgar was weak, or that his motives weren't true. All the primarchs had ambitions of monstrous scales. But it just so happens that the precondition of Lorgar's motives and ambitions is that Lorgar is the prophet who will be humanity's deliverer into spiritual enlightenment, and that his vision of the truth is worth any amount of sacrifice on the part of others to achieve. That could be delusional megalomania, but there's also a fairly wide streak of arrogance there.

 

Sorry - will stop side-tracking the thread now.

[tdemayo]

I think the best portrayal of the Lion and the Dark Angels so far has been Savage Weapons. I think, overall, my problem with the Dark Angels has been that I don't really empathize with or like any of them. They just seem ... boring and slightly callous. Not so much arrogant as stuffy. The closest I came to really liking any of them was Corswain in Savage Weapons: seeing him react to the Night Lords, and seeing the other Angel willing to die for him, that brought him up in my opinion. Still not to a fully fleshed-out level, but enough that he no longer seemed like a mere name killing things.

 

The characters I've most enjoyed in the HH series are those who cared deeply about something, who had some core level of decency, who suffered, and who we could see making sacrifices: Loken, Guilliman, Dorn, heck even Khârn.

 

So far, nobody has really brought that level of humanity to the Lion. I'd like to see ABD or Abnett give us a view from inside the legion, with the lion a significant, non-viewpoint character. I think that would show him in the best light.

[Space Truckin]

I was reading 'Thousand Sons' last night and this line instantly reminded me of this thread.

 

    "And  why should I not attract attention?" countered Magnus, throwing out his arms in an operatic gesture. "Am I not worthy of it?  Fulgrim and his warriors may quest for perfection, but I embody it."

 

 

Haven't had the privilege of reading Savage Weapons or Ravenwing yet.  

[Azoriel]

 

 

Then there's Russ who is fierce, proud and quick to anger, but equally quick to forgive and acknowledge his mistakes.

 

 

He'll forgive and acknowledge his mistakes, but only after much work and consternation to that end; I think it would be incorrect to say that he's quick to do so.  Consider his initial meeting with the Emperor - the Emperor had to pound him into the ground to get Russ to acknowledge him as his superior.  Consider his feud with the Lion; it took the death of the Emperor for him to put that aside.  (Granted, the Lion had no compulsions against partaking, but it's not until the Emperor's death that he shows any interest in actually initiating these fights.)  I'm not sure I'd call it outright arrogance, but pride most certainly.

[Phoebus]

 

The Lion totally lacks social skills, ... I can understand a lot of the Lions behavior, he probably has some sort of behavioral disorder. ...

 

Hyperbole and conjecture.

[Aegnor]

Personally hate "the Lion is autistic" stuff and find a lot of the mentions of it almost offensive. In my head cannon, Zahariel's observations regarding the Lion's apparently lacking social skills say more about Zahariel than they do about the Lion.

 

Not disputing that he's aloof, often preferring his own company and has made a couple of disastrous misjudgements regarding others (which all the other primarchs did as well), just saying that doesn't equate to this fictional super-being having a very real condition.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

ADB fully understand where you are coming from. You don't get the amount of time nor the amount of story to actually get a chance to fill in a character probably nearly as much as you want and obviously not nearly enough for those of us as fans of the First Legion. Your depictions however are much appreciated and I think are pretty awesome (hint I will continue to grovel at your greatness until we all badger you into writing another full length novel about the Lion and the First).

 

Overall I think we've done a fairly good cover of the Primarchs but don't forget that Horus probably takes the cake on his arrogance IMHO of course.

 

DoC

[MontyBob]

The Lion is not a social creature.  Of all the Primarch's I'd say Russ was the most arrogant.

 

It takes arrogance to stride up to someone who's been preparing an assault for weeks to tell them to stand aside and let you take the lead.

 

It takes a hell of a lot of arrogance to take your legion on an unsanctioned mission to the most violent of primarchs, with no support and no authority and demand he surrender and place himself under arrest (Betrayer - Night of the Wolf)

 

 

Johnson spent years in the wild and then joined an order that promoted on merit.

 

Hardly an environment likely to promote arrogance and ego.

 

And as for the Savage Weapons issue

Nemiel put Johnson in a spot - he has the means of victory but using them would put him in breach of Nikea.  If he'd left it there and accepted that he only had to remind Johnson, he'd probably still be alive.  But no, he went further.  Que head punching.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Point of order:

 

Nemiel getting his head punched off was in "The Lion" by Gav Thorpe. "Savage Weapons" is a different story by Aaron Dembski Bowden.

 

And as far as "The Lion"...between the head punching, and the feeding children to a Nurgle daemon engine, and Jonson sitting alone in the dark babbling to himself about how Guilliman tries to take the precious, yes precious, we hates him! We won't let him have it, no, precious, oh noooo!

 

That was Alpharius disguised as the Lion. Or possibly Omegon. It's the only logical explanation.

[Augustus]

Well said, Wade.

[Hellios]

 

 

 

The Lion totally lacks social skills, ... I can understand a lot of the Lions behavior, he probably has some sort of behavioral disorder. ...

 

Hyperbole and conjecture.

 

 

Conjecture? Yes, but then again so much in this thread is. Hyperbole? Not so much.

 

Personally hate "the Lion is autistic" stuff and find a lot of the mentions of it almost offensive. In my head cannon, Zahariel's observations regarding the Lion's apparently lacking social skills say more about Zahariel than they do about the Lion.

Not disputing that he's aloof, often preferring his own company and has made a couple of disastrous misjudgements regarding others (which all the other primarchs did as well), just saying that doesn't equate to this fictional super-being having a very real condition.

 

I don't know why you would find it offensive. Anyway, his behavioral problems doesn't have to be caused by autism, or even have a genetic component. Depriving a child of social interaction during their formative years will mess them up. I don't think the Lion is stupid, I don't understand why he is criticized for handing over the weapon to Purtarabo (SP?). From the information he had it seemed reasonable, and it supports the development of his character and adds another reason to why he wouldn't trust anyone. I know that isn't the only mistake, but it seems to be brought up a fair bit.

 

That being said he would seem to display a number of traits that can be associated with a number of behavioral disorders. We can't say if he has a specific disorder or another because we can't sit him down with a professional. We can only guess, and using Web MD everything is probably a sign of cancer. 

 

I'm not saying he has a disorder, but I don't see why it is an offensive leap, if it even is a leap.

[Prot]

I think the Primarchs all have some fault... it's built in to them and I have to believe the Emperor intended it. But I would never think of the Lion as autistic. lol 

 

I guess I'm not reading Unremembered Imperium, but I think my friend was referring to the Lion in that as an example of his claim of being arrogant.... like sending several of his sons to their death with a dismissive wave (I added 'dismissive' for dramatic effect).

 

If he's still alive, or could be 'recalled' from whatever state he is in, I wonder what he would think of the DA now. 

 

I still have to find savage weapons. I may be stuck downloading it as I haven't seen it anywhere.

 

The only direct actions I can remember reading of him was entertaining and he faced off against a Greater Daemon... and kind of killed it. On one hand the idea that he spanked this thing solo was kind of arrogant, but on the other hand, he did use trickery. A true arrogant beef cake would have went in head first.

 

I guess the problem with this discussion is if people are really protective of their favorite legion, they will probably have some serious bias to this question.

[Bryan Blaire]

If its the sending his sons to their death somewhat dismissively or without acknowledging their demise, that's not arrogance, that's callousness, unless he was saying something like "I'm so much better than you, go die!" The Lion does have a "Doesn't care so much about other folks" issue to him, but that loner attitude is almost stereotypical of those raised with poor human interaction, much less the Lion's formative years where he was literally on his own on one of the more deadly planets in the galaxy.

 

Like I said before, we are each going to color our reading of characters based on our own personal lenses, but I do think that if your friend can't give examples of why he thinks the Lion is the "most arrogant", then perhaps he's simply using the wrong term for what he wants to say?

[Phoebus]

 

 

 

 

The Lion totally lacks social skills, ... I can understand a lot of the Lions behavior, he probably has some sort of behavioral disorder. ...

 

Hyperbole and conjecture.

 

 

Conjecture? Yes, but then again so much in this thread is. Hyperbole? Not so much.

 

The conjecture part is in regards to him having a behavioral disorder.  The hyperbole part is when you say he "totally" lacks social skills.  :)

 

 

 

I don't think the Lion is stupid, I don't understand why he is criticized for handing over the weapon to Purtarabo (SP?). From the information he had it seemed reasonable, and it supports the development of his character and adds another reason to why he wouldn't trust anyone. I know that isn't the only mistake, but it seems to be brought up a fair bit.

 

Agreed.

[Phoebus]

I guess I'm not reading Unremembered Imperium, but I think my friend was referring to the Lion in that as an example of his claim of being arrogant.... like sending several of his sons to their death with a dismissive wave (I added 'dismissive' for dramatic effect).

 

That's invented... and inaccurate.  That's not me expressing bias, mind you.  I'm just telling you that your friend is doing a terrible job paraphrasing the story.  I'm seriously at a loss as to how he arrived at this conclusion without projecting his own preconceived notions unto to this story.  The author certainly doesn't hint or imply at him arrogantly sending his Astartes to their death.

 

If he's still alive, or could be 'recalled' from whatever state he is in, I wonder what he would think of the DA now. 

 

He's a brilliant genius and has shown himself to be objective and calculating.  He'd probably take into consideration the context of the Imperium, and how his Legion may very well have been in a lot of trouble because of what Luther did.  On the other hand, I think he would not have been able to reconcile the needs of the Hunt with the abandonment/betrayal of Imperial forces (though that thought hinges on Astelan's anecdotal tale of the Lion's ruthlessness being false).

 

The big question is what the Lion would have done with the Inner Circle.  Given the opportunity to formulate a course of action, as seen in Descent of Angels, he might avoid overtly prosecuting them and choose to relegate them to the margins, instead.  If the deeds of the Inner Circle are revealed to him under serious duress, like in The Lion, some heads might roll.

 

 

The only direct actions I can remember reading of him was entertaining and he faced off against a Greater Daemon... and kind of killed it. On one hand the idea that he spanked this thing solo was kind of arrogant, but on the other hand, he did use trickery. A true arrogant beef cake would have went in head first.

 

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you're being too loose with word usage.  Arrogance is a mindset wherein an individual thinks they are superior to those around them, and is expressed in behavior that is insulting, overbearing, or presumptuous.  Does the Lion approach fighting the greater daemon in an arrogant manner?  Even if he does use "trickery", does he saunter in thinking he has already won?  No.

 

I guess the problem with this discussion is if people are really protective of their favorite legion, they will probably have some serious bias to this question.

 

Not really, Prot.  I mean, this topic is neither here nor there since we're just discussing fiction... but the reason you're getting a lot of dissenting opinions is because a lot of the things you've offered are hyperbole or outright inventions.

[Prot]

 

 

I guess the problem with this discussion is if people are really protective of their favorite legion, they will probably have some serious bias to this question.

 

Not really, Prot.  I mean, this topic is neither here nor there since we're just discussing fiction... but the reason you're getting a lot of dissenting opinions is because a lot of the things you've offered are hyperbole or outright inventions.

 

 

You pick at a lot of what I say... which is cool, but I think at this point it's very accurate to say we strongly disagree with each other on a lot of things said in these forums. 

 

Saying I offer hyperbole and that's the reason there are dissenting opinions is moot.  I started the subject -because- the opinion was offered to me and not because it was my opinion. I thought if there was a good place where I'd get solid opinions it would be here.

 

 

 I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you're being too loose with word usage.

 

 

Arrogant has been defined several times in this thread. I've read them all, and I belief my ability to understand those words is adequate.

 

If a Primarch walks up to a largely unknown 'creature' that just appeared in the back of his ship, and has already decimated many of his Astartes. (which seem incapable of even bruising said beast)... and thinks, I'm gonna kick this thing's arse... I  think I can fairly construe that as arrogant. So am I too 'loose with word usage'? I disagree...I think that this scenario could meet that definition... giving my reading comprehension what it is.

 

However, I do say that I don't think of it that way since he is calculating, and cautious through the event. However what I am doing is trying to see where *I* personally have seen arrogance in the Lion's actions. Which I haven't. So again, going back the beginning, I posted this because it was an opinion offered to me. I wanted to see if some people agreed with that opinion.

[Azoriel]

The creatures were not unknown to the Lion by any definition of those terms - he identified them (nephilia?), and selected weapons which he knew would be highly effective against that specific threat (force swords).  He then proceeded to cleave his way through any of these creatures which he came across - with great ease no less.  Least unknown to him would have been the greater demon, whom the Lion had a personal history with (or at least it was so implied).

[Prot]

Off topic: I thought that was the Lion's first encounter with a Greater Daemon, no?

 

I mean, the way the GD introduces itself to the Lion I don't get the indication they have met before. If the power of the daemons is clear to him, why did he send so many Astartes to their death before dealing with it himself?

 

I read the story back when it was released, so I may not fully remember, but if the Greater Daemon was 'not unknown to the Lion by any definition of those terms' then I take that back. 

 

++EDIT++

 

Okay for the sake of accuracy since I remember it differently from you, I looked this up again:

 

- He took two blades made on Caliban.  (Hope and Despair) They aren't Force Swords.

 

- He considers the foe, but there is no indication he knows or has ever had interaction with the "Nephila"

 

- The indication is he 'discovers' their different anatomy as they blow up, rather than die, in a heap of gore. He takes note of this, as if it is new information to him.

 

- The weaponry they are using is inadequate for the foe. It is  mentioned that a lascannon could do the job, but they were going through ammo at a high rate, and they're weapons are referred to as 'mundane'. In fact it is the lady with the 'third eye' that is only having effect.  I see no indication that the Dark Angels, nor the Lion had any previous understanding of what these creatures were.

 

- Coswain is out of ammo, lost 7 of his warriors, and tries to hit a newly spawned Nephila with his sword. It bleeds fire, and sets Coswain on fire. This is a surprise to Coswain (no previous understanding of this enemy.)

 

- With the sweep of an arm the greater daemon smashes several of the Dark Angels back. The psyker girl is fairly useless against him. He repels her energy with the wave of his hand.

 

- Coswain to the Lion - 'There is something here that we cannot destroy. It wants to speak to you.' 

 

- The GD speaks directly to the Lion through psychic means. 

"I have been searching for you a long time"

The lion knows he has heard the voice of the GD before. "I have come to you before' 

 

- The Lion has memory of stalking the GD on Caliban. But the Lion refers to him as an 'alien' Not understanding what the being is. 

 

- The attempt to resist the GD's thoughts are useless as the GD explains that they are in his 'realm now' and he has no power.  The Lion has no real understanding of what he is facing until the Daemon explains Chaos to the Lion at this moment. (Or some visual explanation of it given the timeframe)

 

 

So I gotta say this:

 

 

The creatures were not unknown to the Lion by any definition of those terms 

 

Is a bit harsh.

 

It is clear to me that the Lion knows very, very little about this enemy. In fact the situation very much involves 'unknown' enemies.

 

His Astartes had no clue. They had no idea how to handle the daemons (if he knew of his enemy would he not properly prepare them?) They are largely at the mercy of these enemies.

 

The Primarch is not even knowledgeable about Chaos nor Daemons so to suggest he had force weapons (of which I can find no evidence of) is incorrect.

 

For the record, I don't find his actions in this incident arrogant, but I am looking for where they could be construed as such.

[Azoriel]

And make a waste of all the effort that it took to reach this place? I have been searching for you a long time, Lion of Caliban.

There was something familiar about the creature’s voice, like a half-remembered dream. The Lion could not place from where, but it was not the first time he had heard this. His mind stirred with vague recollections, of pleading and entreaty.

Yes, that is true. I have come to you before.

"Get out of my thoughts." The Lion stepped to his left and focused on blocking the creature from his mind, mentally bringing up a shield as though he were defending himself against a physical attack. It was a trick he had learnt as he had stalked nephilla on Caliban. One of the bird-beast’s heads followed him with its inscrutable gaze, the other stayed fixed upon Corswain.

As for ordering his men to their deaths...

'Stay calm.’

The Lion spoke without haste, pouring reassurance and strength into those two words as he felt the touch of panic settling upon the dozens of crew manning the strategium. There was not a man or woman aboard the ship that had not faced death more than once, but being engulfed in the warp breach was a test that none of them had faced before.

He activated the internal comms system with a flick of a finger.

‘All captains and other officers maintain discipline in your sections. We are experiencing a temporary situation that will be resolved swiftly. You have your standing orders, obey them.'

'Enemy?’ snapped the Lion. ‘A Night Lords teleport attack?’

‘No clear report, my liege,’ said Corswain. ‘It is very confusing.’

‘Get down there and establish some order, little brother. Clear head, discipline and courage.’

Corswain nodded and headed towards the doors while the Lion turned his attention back to Stenius, one eyebrow raised in question.

‘Warp interference prevents us raising void shields, my liege. We would suffer the fate of the Night Lords. The same is true of the Geller field; we’ve not fully translated and to activate it would risk a massive feedback loop. Warp engines are still cycling back to potential from our translation.’ Though the captain’s face was immobile, his shoulders sagged. ‘We are trapped here for the moment, my liege.’

The Lion absorbed this without comment, the reality of the situation brought home by the captain’s stark words. He formed a plan of action.

‘We cannot break free from this storm, so we must ride it to the heart. Have the warp engines readied as soon as possible. We will make a full translation back into warp space and activate the Geller field to stabilise normality. Have Lady Fiana report to me immediately. Understood?'

He did not rush himself, but took the time to collect his thoughts, considering the enemy of the day. In his youth he had slain nephilla with his bare hands out of necessity, though they were all but impervious to most mortal weapons; another benefit of his primarch heritage. This day he would go armed, and he took up two blades, heavy hand-and-a-half broadswords by the reckoning of normal men but easily held in each fist by the giant primarch. They were superbly crafted, the product of a Calibanite artisan whose name had been lost to history. Their names were inscribed along the edge of each blade in florid lettering: Hope and Despair. Each had a long fuller to lighten the blade weight, and they were edged with a crystalline compound sharper than any metal, unbreakable and never needing to be sharpened. The Lion had found the pair of swords used as ceremonial pieces by one of the order masters, and becoming enchanted by their glittering edges had insisted on a trade, gaining them for the exchange of an unblemished sablesabre pelt the primarch had prepared by his own hand.

Armed with the twin blades, the Lion joined his allotted company at the main gateway above the reactor rooms and warp core, where the fighting was fiercest. Several wounded legionaries were being dragged up the access ramp, suffering a variety of horrendous wounds: burns and slashes through their armour that had gouged down to the bone.

‘Fight with pride, die with honour,’ said the Lion, raising his swords in salute to his little brothers. They fell in behind their primarch, forming five lines each fifty strong.

At no point does he send his men to their deaths needlessly (unless you consider an order to not panic tantamount to ordering them to commit suicide). The closest thing to sending his men to certain death is when he leads them into battle personally and tells them to fight and die bravely (following his lead). And even this is not entirely futile:

Corswain felt only a little better that he had Lady Fiana for company. The gaze of her third eye was devastating to the enemy, but she tired quickly and had to rest for several minutes between bursts. For those periods, it was up to him and the other Dark Angels to protect her with their mundane weapons. It was not impossible – the nephilla could be destroyed by weight of fire or a particularly powerful blast of a lascannon or such – but it was hard work and the force was expending ammunition and power packs at a prodigious rate. They had less than half the stores they had set out with by the time they reached the conveyors and stairwells that dropped down into the warp core chambers.

[Prot]

I actually haven't read the story yet... and am probably going to start it shortly.  So as much as I'd like to, I'm not going to read those excerpts which I assume are from the novel?

 

It would probably be a good idea to put these in 'spoiler' tags. 

[WGXH]

Regarding the Lion and Chaos- keep in mind how infested Caliban was at it's core. While perhaps not greater daemons face to face, the Lion almost certainly is knowledgeable of Chaos in a way few other loyalist Primarchs are. The fact that he has remained loyal is remarkable.

 

Regarding the topic matter, I wouldn't say the Lion is arrogant so much as prideful, callous and aloof. His sons do not require praise and applause as though they were remembrancers. They are Dark Angels, the First Legion. Songs are not for them- only victory.

[Prot]

Regarding the Lion and Chaos- keep in mind how infested Caliban was at it's core. While perhaps not greater daemons face to face, the Lion almost certainly is knowledgeable of Chaos in a way few other loyalist Primarchs are. The fact that he has remained loyal is remarkable.

 

Regarding the topic matter, I wouldn't say the Lion is arrogant so much as prideful, callous and aloof. His sons do not require praise and applause as though they were remembrancers. They are Dark Angels, the First Legion. Songs are not for them- only victory.

 

It does make you wonder why the Emperor never told his sons of Chaos... even a little bit. I just have trouble understanding that unless he was hiding something. But keeping them ignorant of Chaos certainly cost them a lot. 

 

As I get further into Ravenwing it is interesting to me that there seems to be layers of secrecy as some new recruits (Ravenwing) are told somethings, and then Black Knights might be told a bit more information, and then after who knows how long, they get into the first legion and told even more....

 

I haven't read anything showing me the Lion is Callous, but again I really want to get into Unremembered Empire... it seems to be something a lot of people reference for him.... as well as savage weapons.

[Azoriel]

I actually haven't read the story yet... and am probably going to start it shortly. So as much as I'd like to, I'm not going to read those excerpts which I assume are from the novel?

It would probably be a good idea to put these in 'spoiler' tags.

My apologies for the previously unmarked spoilers (my thanks to Captain Semper), but, to be fair, your references to said story left me with the impression that you had.

I do understand that you are trying to play the role of "Luther's Advocate". But, while I don't expect you to "spoil" the story for yourself (it's a good one and worth reading), I will state that you cannot argue from a position of willful ignorance - 90% everything you address is outright refuted in the spoilers I posted earlier, with the remaining 10% refutable with additional spoilers. And when I say this, I mean I actually reread the sections in question just now to be sure my information is accurate. As such, my positions must remain what they are.

And, to be completely honest, the force sword thing is actually debatable since his swords are never actually called "force swords", but this becomes EXTREMELY difficult to refute later during his fight with the greater demon.