Is the Lion the Most Arrogant of the Primarchs?

[Komrk]

It's believed that he told Corax about Chaos, although as to why him, I have no idea but he did remember hearing voices before he landed on Lycaeus.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think it's very possible that they were simply power weapons that he managed to channel psychic energies through. He is a Primarch and they do have psychic powers beyond normal humans, and honestly, there had to be some way he was able to survive in the Caliban forests and resist Chaos' lure totally unarmed. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the first time he'd channeled the Warp.

[Azoriel]

I think it's very possible that they were simply power weapons that he managed to channel psychic energies through. He is a Primarch and they do have psychic powers beyond normal humans, and honestly, there had to be some way he was able to survive in the Caliban forests and resist Chaos' lure totally unarmed. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the first time he'd channeled the Warp.

 

Consider one of the spoiler passages I posted earlier:

 

 

He did not rush himself, but took the time to collect his thoughts, considering the enemy of the day. In his youth he had slain nephilla with his bare hands out of necessity, though they were all but impervious to most mortal weapons; another benefit of his primarch heritage. This day he would go armed, and he took up two blades, heavy hand-and-a-half broadswords by the reckoning of normal men but easily held in each fist by the giant primarch. They were superbly crafted, the product of a Calibanite artisan whose name had been lost to history. Their names were inscribed along the edge of each blade in florid lettering: Hope and Despair. Each had a long fuller to lighten the blade weight, and they were edged with a crystalline compound sharper than any metal, unbreakable and never needing to be sharpened. The Lion had found the pair of swords used as ceremonial pieces by one of the order masters, and becoming enchanted by their glittering edges had insisted on a trade, gaining them for the exchange of an unblemished sablesabre pelt the primarch had prepared by his own hand.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

The above passage suggests two things:

1. that the Lion did not have the ability to channel the warp through all weapons (given that he had to kill demons in his youth bare-handed), and
2. that the Lion specifically picked these weapons because he knew they would be effective against the current threat.

I'm sure he's channeled the warp before - but I'm also sure he picked these weapons because he knew they could facilitate that ability.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think you are reading into that passage a bit. Nothing in that passage suggests that they were force weapons.

 

That he killed Nephilia with his hands "out of necessity" doesn't automatically mean "because he couldn't have used anything else", rather that he didn't have any other weapons in his youth (other than maybe branches) because he lived in the freakin' death woods, so he had to kill them with his bare hands. Also, that most mortal weapons couldn't kill them doesn't negate anything about this, because he directly attributes his ability to kill them with his hands in spite of their imperviousness to his Primarch heritage. His bare hands he would have considered "mortal weapons" because he himself is a "mortal", for all his superior construction, genetic manipulation, etc, and there's nothing that indicates that the Emperor told his sons that their creation also involved the Warp.

 

Also, remember, Caliban kills "witches" (psychics), so unless that crystalline compound just happens accidentally to have made the weapons into force weapons, Calibanite weaponsmiths wouldn't have made any force weapons because they wouldn't have any knowledge of psychically conductive materials needing to be crafted into weaponry. We are also told that they are definitely of Calibanite origin, so they aren't mysterious "weapons from before" that people wouldn't know the properties of.

 

Also, the use of psychic power through a force weapon to destroy a demon doesn't also destroy the weapon as the Lion using his psychic abilities channeled through those swords did.

[Azoriel]

 

Also, remember, Caliban kills "witches" (psychics), so unless that crystalline compound just happens accidentally to have made the weapons into force weapons, Calibanite weaponsmiths wouldn't have made any force weapons because they wouldn't have any knowledge of psychically conductive materials needing to be crafted into weaponry. We are also told that they are definitely of Calibanite origin, so they aren't mysterious "weapons from before" that people wouldn't know the properties of.

 

 

This is actually precisely what I'm positing - the Lion knew the crystal happened to be psychoactive upon setting eyes upon the swords and immediately set out to acquire them.  (He most certainly knew they were worth getting, as well as worth using for this specific task.)  To a certain extent, I would agree this is reading into the passage...  But I don't consider it to be much of a stretch at all.

 

Also, the use of psychic power through a force weapon to destroy a demon doesn't also destroy the weapon as the Lion using his psychic abilities channeled through those swords did.

 

This point I'll have to concede - perhaps they were impromptu force weapons?  I think you and I both agree they weren't forged with this use in mind.  But I do think it was the use the Lion had in mind from the get-go when he picked them, hence my choice in terminology.

 

But you might be on to something - if the Lion could channel the warp through most melee weapons, destroying them in the process, that would go a long way to explaining why he keeps changing weapons between authors (as well as why he has this gigantic collection of melee weapons that is mysteriously unaccounted for in 40K)...  ;)

[Jehoel]

But you might be on to something - if the Lion could channel the warp through most melee weapons, destroying them in the process, that would go a long way to explaining why he keeps changing weapons between authors (as well as why he has this gigantic collection of melee weapons that is mysteriously unaccounted for in 40K)...

All of the Primarchs have large collections of weapons that they have acquired during the Great Crusade. Some moreso than others, but then some fought more battles than others.

[Prot]

Well I didn't intend for my post to spark this, but it's definitely entertaining to read! 

 

The way I read his choice of weapons: They had nostalgic value to him. They were old school, and incredibly sharp due to the trimming of the blades with crystal. 

 

I did not get the feeling he intended to use them as force weapons at all. However, that doesn't mean it is impossible for him to use them as such, even accidentally? (lots of room for debate here I suppose).

 

We do know, for whatever reason, the Emperor chose to not tell his sons of Chaos, or the Warp's true nature. Focusing on Lionel for this purpose, it's fair to say he had no foreknowledge of the best weapon to use against such a foe. The area of the book where he is attacking the nephiia it is clear he is learning about these creatures as he goes.  It's not until he hears the psychic voice of the greater daemon that he has an recollection of any of these enemies. 

 

At the end of the day, he did something no one else on the ship could... and the reason he could do it? Strength to swing the sword, and the ability to psychicly charge his weapon (even if by accident). This last sentence is a complete guess by myself, but it could be over complicating things.

 

The greater daemon never meant to kill Lionel, but manipulate him.... so it could have been different if the GD was there simply to kill. The simple fact may be, the Primarch was faster, and strong enough to put a 'near' deathblow on the GD.  

 

The way the GD was toying with the psyker and Coswain, as well as all the astartes in the ship... I personally believe that the story could have ended differently if the GD just simply wanted the Lion dead... who can say for sure? 

[Azoriel]

Well I didn't intend for my post to spark this, but it's definitely entertaining to read! 

 

The way I read his choice of weapons: They had nostalgic value to him. They were old school, and incredibly sharp due to the trimming of the blades with crystal. 

 

I did not get the feeling he intended to use them as force weapons at all. However, that doesn't mean it is impossible for him to use them as such, even accidentally? (lots of room for debate here I suppose).

 

We do know, for whatever reason, the Emperor chose to not tell his sons of Chaos, or the Warp's true nature. Focusing on Lionel for this purpose, it's fair to say he had no foreknowledge of the best weapon to use against such a foe. The area of the book where he is attacking the nephiia it is clear he is learning about these creatures as he goes.  It's not until he hears the psychic voice of the greater daemon that he has an recollection of any of these enemies. 

 

At the end of the day, he did something no one else on the ship could... and the reason he could do it? Strength to swing the sword, and the ability to psychicly charge his weapon (even if by accident). This last sentence is a complete guess by myself, but it could be over complicating things.

 

The greater daemon never meant to kill Lionel, but manipulate him.... so it could have been different if the GD was there simply to kill. The simple fact may be, the Primarch was faster, and strong enough to put a 'near' deathblow on the GD.  

 

The way the GD was toying with the psyker and Coswain, as well as all the astartes in the ship... I personally believe that the story could have ended differently if the GD just simply wanted the Lion dead... who can say for sure? 

While it's clear he values the swords, Lion's thoughts (at least as presented in text) are more focused on what works against his enemy.  Bryan Blaire may disagree with me on this point, but I feel my own reading of the text is by far more straightforward than his own.

 

The original text presents the following train of thought (paraphrased by me):

 

"I'm fighting demons today" -> "I had to kill demons with my bare hands before"-> "I'm going to use these two bastard swords today rather than go unarmed"

 

 

My own reading of the text:

 

"I'm fighting demons today (who my librarian told me could only be defeated by warp powers in the scene immediately before this one)" -> "I had to kill demons with my bare hands before (because they are imprevious to normal weapons)" -> "I'm going to use these two bastard swords today rather than go unarmed (because I know that this will circumvent the limitations of normal weapons)"

 

 

Bryan Blaire's reading of the text:

 

"I'm fighting demons today (which I haven't done in a while)" -> "I had to kill demons with my bare hands before (because my childhood was that rough)"-> "I'm going to use these two bastard swords today rather than go unarmed (because I can do lots of damage with two swords)"

 

 

My own reading of the text is that the Lion is actively considering the problem (invulnerable enemies) when he comes up with his solution.  Bryan Blaire's reading is that this is not so much problem solving as it is idle nostalgia (at least in regards to his childhood).  I won't go so far as to say his reading is completely unfounded - I don't think Gav Thorpe combed over his story phrase by phrase, word by word, to ensure one EXACT meaning would be imparted - but the Lion (under Thorpe or any other author) just doesn't strike me as a daydreamy type.  He's a master strategist, infamously stubborn and taciturn, with an immediate problem at hand; it doesn't make sense to me he waste spend a moment in reverie (however passive) while said problem remains a dire threat to his men and unresolved.

 

Now, Bryan Blaire does have me on the whole mortal/immortal thing...  But I'm thinking the Lion understands the Emperor, himself, and his brethren to be in a different class above and beyond your average man.  And he knows he has psychic abilities (or at least psychic defenses) that most people can't exercise.  As such, it wouldn't surprise me if the Lion were to consider himself more than merely "mortal", even if he doesn't consider the Emperor and the primarchs to be gods.

 

However, this is a difference in interpretation rather than printed text, so agree to disagree if you will.

 

I don't see the choice of two bastard swords being so nostalgic, as this is the one and only time he's seen so equipped - every other time the Lion been presented (to include his presentation by Gav Thorpe later in the same short story), he is always armed with a single greatsword.  I'll even go so far as to say I think his choice of two swords (over his usual one) may have been intentional preparation on his part (in case one got destroyed - which it did).

 

As for the warp discharge being accidental, that's possible, but I doubt that.  Each time the Lion is surprised by something in the story (usually by how each nephilla reacts to his swings), there's a brief mental pause where he consciously makes note of it.  However, there is no such reaction to the end of his fight with the Greater Demon; he just gets up and goes straight for the comm link.  This could simply be an oversight on the author's part (again, I doubt the Mr. Thorpe went over the text with a fine-toothed comb), but, if the Lion surprised himself (especially with something like that), I'm sure the text would have reflected it.

 

Edit: Going to be more careful with the spoilers (even if only paraphrased).

[Azoriel]

Ah, one more thing:

 

 

We do know, for whatever reason, the Emperor chose to not tell his sons of Chaos, or the Warp's true nature. Focusing on Lionel for this purpose, it's fair to say he had no foreknowledge of the best weapon to use against such a foe. The area of the book where he is attacking the nephiia it is clear he is learning about these creatures as he goes.  It's not until he hears the psychic voice of the greater daemon that he has an recollection of any of these enemies.

 

 

This is... not quite accurate.

 

 

The first one to identify the creatures to the reader is actually Corswain (who recognizes them from Calibanite legend).  At the same time, the ship Navigators are making their way towards the strategium to inform the Lion that the threat they face is warp-based.  Both the Navigators and Corswain arrive at the strategium at the same time, to find the Lion presiding in judgement over Asmodeus (a former librarian), who states that psychic powers can harm the creatures attacking them, and Nemiel, who wants Asmodeus dead for having used said powers.  You should know the rest of the story from there.

 

[Phoebus]

 

 

You pick at a lot of what I say... which is cool, but I think at this point it's very accurate to say we strongly disagree with each other on a lot of things said in these forums. 

 

 

Saying I offer hyperbole and that's the reason there are dissenting opinions is moot.  I started the subject -because- the opinion was offered to me and not because it was my opinion. I thought if there was a good place where I'd get solid opinions it would be here.

 

But that's the thing, it's not a moot point.  Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but consider your position: you asked a question; it's based on someone else's opinion of stories you haven't read. When people point out that your friend's opinion is inaccurate, those are the "solid opinions" you're looking for.  You can't dismiss them as evidence of bias.  Not until you've read the stories for yourself, that is.

 

Where the hyperbole is concerned, I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression.  I thought my first paragraph qualified that what you're relaying - that is, your friend's opinion - is hyperbole/invented stuff.

 

 

Arrogant has been defined several times in this thread. I've read them all, and I belief my ability to understand those words is adequate.

If a Primarch walks up to a largely unknown 'creature' that just appeared in the back of his ship, and has already decimated many of his Astartes. (which seem incapable of even bruising said beast)... and thinks, I'm gonna kick this thing's arse... I  think I can fairly construe that as arrogant. So am I too 'loose with word usage'? I disagree...I think that this scenario could meet that definition... giving my reading comprehension what it is.

 

EDIT:  I'm really confused by your subsequent posts.  Have you read "The Lion", or not?  In post #70, you said you went back to re-read it, but after Azoriel rebutted your points, you said you hadn't read it.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not you've read this story.  I say this because the Lion never behaves "arrogantly" in that story.  At best, your friend did a terrible job of paraphrasing the story.  Again, I'm not trying to be rude, but the points you raised, which Azoriel responded to already, are just neither here nor there.

 

The Lion is unaware of the greater daemon when he initially heads to the Invincible Reason's main core chamber.  He only knows he's going to face creatures the like of which he was able to kill with his bare hands in the past.  Corswain warns him that "something [they] cannot destroy" wants to speak to him.  Entering the main core chamber isn't some sort of demonstration of the Lion's confidence, arrogance, or sheer bravado; the Invincible Reason couldn't translate back to the material universe until they got the warp drive working again.  If they couldn't translate, they would face an endless onslaught of daemons.  Thus, the Lion comes in, surveys the scene, and is telepathically warned by the daemon that it will kill Corswain if the Lion attacks.  During the Lion's entire interaction with the greater daemon is meant to give him the opportunity to outmaneuver and distract it in order to get his attack in.

 

About the only "arrogant" thing expressed by the Lion during this entire scene is this statement:  “The Emperor has shown us a new way. The Imperial Truth will endure for eternity.”

 

Beyond that, where the word usage is concerned, we will have to agree to disagree.  Arrogance is a function of attitude, of feeling superiority towards others and expressing it in a condescending manner.  You're conflating that with a subjective impression of confidence.

 

 

However, I do say that I don't think of it that way since he is calculating, and cautious through the event. However what I am doing is trying to see where *I* personally have seen arrogance in the Lion's actions. Which I haven't. So again, going back the beginning, I posted this because it was an opinion offered to me. I wanted to see if some people agreed with that opinion.

 

Right, and you'll note that I only piped up when you opined that bias was in play when people argued against your friend's opinion.

 

Anyways, I hope you enjoy "Savage Weapons" and The Unremembered Empire.  Both are enjoyable reads, but it's fair to say that the first is what informs the style of the Dark Angels and their primarch are concerned.

[Phoebus]

 

Focusing on Lionel for this purpose, it's fair to say he had no foreknowledge of the best weapon to use against such a foe. The area of the book where he is attacking the nephiia it is clear he is learning about these creatures as he goes.  It's not until he hears the psychic voice of the greater daemon that he has an recollection of any of these enemies.

 

Please read the story before you continue.  It's a shame, because a lot of the points you offer are flat-out contradicted by the story.  The Lion recalls the nephilla and how he slew them with his bare hands when he was on Caliban before he even chooses his weapons.  While he might not have known what worked best against daemons prior to this battle, he doesn't just go off to battle unprepared.  He knows that Librarians can destroy them, and so can the Navigator's third eye.  That's why he assembles eight strike forces - each with a Librarian or a Navigator - and places himself with one of said forces.

 

 

The greater daemon never meant to kill Lionel, but manipulate him.... so it could have been different if the GD was there simply to kill. The simple fact may be, the Primarch was faster, and strong enough to put a 'near' deathblow on the GD.

 

The way the GD was toying with the psyker and Coswain, as well as all the astartes in the ship... I personally believe that the story could have ended differently if the GD just simply wanted the Lion dead... who can say for sure? 

 

Nah.  We have two perspectives that refute that.  Within the Horus Heresy storyline, Lorgar Aurelian defeats not just any greater daemon (it feels silly typing this), but one of Khorne's most powerful Bloodthirsters.  Within the 40k milieu, Epimetheus - one of the original Grand Masters of the Grey Knights - defets a greater daemon of the same sort the Lion faces.

 

The Lion's choices in this situation were meant to defeat the greater daemon while sparing Corswain's life.  You'll see that when you read the story.  :)

[Wade Garrett]

I believe that so far the only Primarch to be at all threatened by a Greater Daemon was Sanguinus in his first fight with Kha'Bhanda. (spelling?)

 

Fulgrim is arguable, considering he went and got himself possessed, but considering he eventually unpossessed himself I'll stand by that first sentence.

[FerociousBeast]

"he eventually unpossessed himself"

 

That is HIGHLY debatable.

[Prot]

Just fyi, I took quotes directly from that story "the Lion". I haven't read it, technically. I have the audio book.

 

I confused this with an Ebook that is on the Black Library website that I thought was a 'new' stand alone release, but it isn't. It's just being releases seperately to promote some of the 2014 lineup. ( I was actually looking for Savage Weapons when I stumbled on that. My apologies for the mix up. )

 

As this thread continued, I went back to the excerpts directly relating to his encounter with the Greater Daemon. I re-listened to them. As a result it is my opinion that Lionel did not have an accurate understanding of his foe's true potential, or origins.  I can't see it any other way no matter how many times I re-listen to it. If you see it differently, once again, we disagree. 

 

90% everything you address is outright refuted in the spoilers I posted earlier

 

 

 

Incorrect: Lots of what I said isn't even dealt with in your rebuttle.

 

-I still think he doesn't understand the true nature of the GD. He did not understand how to kill it. (Not intentionally)

-A lot of Astartes died at the whim of that thing. The only defense of that as far as the Lion is concerned is that he didn't know the GD was on board until it speaks to him.

- You left out the part where the Lion waves his hand to break the psychic link of the GD. It doesn't work at this point? Why not? Because the Lion has NO IDEA that this is a god of the warp and in its own element. 

- Again you mentioned Force Swords. No such thing exists in his arsenal. He never has the thought. He never mentions "I need this to kill a greater daemon". I can't proof a negative, he simply did know the full implication of what he was facing.

 

If you think that strangling a few of the minor creatures with his bare hands on Caliban means the Primarch knows and fully understands what a Daemon Prince of Chaos is, and what it can do... all the power to you, but in no way do I agree with that assessment from what you've written, or what I've read.

 

At this point the conversation has gone sideways. I think it's just easier to say we disagree on if the Primarch truly understood his foe. I say he didn't, you think he did. I'm fine with that, but won't debate it further in this thread.

[Wade Garrett]

"he eventually unpossessed himself"

 

That is HIGHLY debatable.

Only if you haven't read The Reflection Crack'd.

 

For that matter, there's an entire loyalist Chapter whose whole schtick is getting themselves possessed and them evicting the daemon with sheer willpower (the Excorcists).

 

Not to mention Captain Vandred of the Night Lords regaining control of his body after two centuries as a daemonhost in "Blood Reaver", or Ravenor's interrogator grappling with the Greater Daemon trying to possess him throughout that trilogy.

 

And again, Reflection Crack'd spells it out almost to the point of having Graham McNeil come by and whisper in your ear "Fulgrim isn't possessed anymore, got it?"

 

Unless you have a good explanation for why a Keeper of Secrets would be having guilt ridden hallucinations of Ferrus Manus?

[FerociousBeast]

I don't remember the exact name of the story, but if it's the one where the Emp's Kids capture Fulgrim, torture him, and a portrait of Fulgrim is heavily involved, I have read it, and I think you are misreading the story if you think the real Fulgrim is the one who's victorious in the end. Yes, it's clearly shown that the Emp's Kids think Fulgrim's back, but that don't mean it's true...

[Wade Garrett]

I have read it, and I think you are misreading the story if you think the real Fulgrim is the one who's victorious in the end. Yes, it's clearly shown that the Emp's Kids think Fulgrim's back, but that don't mean it's true...

 

 

Again, for your take on "Reflection" to be correct, it requires a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh to be emotionally affected by visions of Ferrus Manus. Which makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Then there's the fact that in all of Fulgrim's scenes in

Angel Exterminatus, even in his interior monologues, he's identified as Fulgrim, whereas in the novel "Fulgrim" when the daemon takes over it clearly identifies itself as such in its own thoughts.

 

And lastly, in "Aurelian" Lorgar tells the daemon to enjoy its possession of Fulgrim while it can, because it won't have that body for long. Given how far the XVII Primarch was willing to go to save Angron from the Butcher's Nails, if the creature had taken permanent residence in Fulgrim's body (as opposed to a short term occupation while the Phoenician bled it of its knowledge of the Warp) he would have done something about it.

 

Now, there is certainly nothing preventing you from going "Nah nah nah you're misreading it you're misreading it nah nah nah!" ad infinitum, but I've put up my reasoning and sourced what I'm basing it on.

 

I think the onus is now on you to come up with a counter argument other than "Harrumph! You're wrong! I can't even remember the title of the story we're arguing about, but you're wrong!"

[Azoriel]

There's something called a "strawman argument", when you exaggerate or otherwise manipulate opposing arguments into something obviously incorrect (without actually addressing said opposing arguments) for the purposes of proving the other side wrong.

 

I never stated or implied the Lion knew there was a greater demon on board ("I sense exactly 327 demons active on the Invincible Reason at this time!  And, Holy Emperor, my old nemesis Ul'Filthar the Fated, winged servant of the Chaos god Tzeentch, is on board as well!  He's carrying a staff, has mostly white plumage right now, and has approximately 12 - no, 14 - fingerbones in his robes...").  What the Lion knows is the general nature of the threat - warp creatures.  Corswain, the ship navigators, and at least one of the librarians on board all come to this conclusion before hand and informed the Lion.  The Lion has dealt with warp creatures before and knows this is something he has defeated in the past (again, in a general sense).  This is consistent with what I actually claimed (vice what you have implied I claimed).

 

The creatures were not unknown to the Lion by any definition of those terms - he identified them (nephilia?), and selected weapons which he knew would be highly effective against that specific threat (force swords).  He then proceeded to cleave his way through any of these creatures which he came across - with great ease no less.  Least unknown to him would have been the greater demon, whom the Lion had a personal history with (or at least it was so implied).

 

The force weapon thing I already addressed, and see no need to address any further.  If the text were to describe Corswain riding a two-wheeled motor vehicle, with the wheels situated in front and behind of the driver's place in the vehicle, I would feel perfectly justified in calling said vehicle a motorcycle even if the term "motorcycle" was never used in the book, as it's functionally the exact same thing.

 

The text already confirms he had a personal history with the greater demon, so I should not need to elaborate on that either.  Note at no point did I claim that he was armed specifically to deal with said demon, only that he recognized that he had dealt with this same demon before upon encountering it.

 

If you have already determined that you will simply agree to disagree on all the above, then this matter is concluded.  This is your thread, after all.

Edit: clarity

[Phoebus]

 

-I still think he doesn't understand the true nature of the GD. He did not understand how to kill it. (Not intentionally)

 

No offense, but that's a rather odd straw to grasp.  Throughout the Horus Heresy series, we have been consistently shown that neither the Legiones Astartes nor the primarchs who lead them are that familiar with the overwhelming majority of "new" enemies they have to face - or with their particular weaknesses.  They gain knowledge and familiarity through battle.  That they are confident the weapons and abilities they have been endowed with will grant them ultimate victory is beyond dispute.  That this is indicative of arrogance by default* is incorrect.  That the Lion's mindset or actions in this specific situation are indicative of arrogance is also incorrect. 

 

Again, the Lion was faced with a situation wherein his choices were to either defeat the nephilla and restore the warp drive, or be stuck in "limbo" and see his forces slaughtered by daemons.  The fact that he didn't necessarily know how to defeat a greater daemon is irrelevant.  The fact of the matter is, he didn't have a choice but to try, and when he did try to kill it he did so with consideration for his lieutenant's life.  Prior to - and during the fight against the greater daemon - he did everything he could to give his Dark Angels a proper fighting chance.  He did not callously send anyone to their death.  Even killing Nemiel was not due to the Lion being callous - it's clear that this was done during a moment where he lost control over himself.

 

The fact that this incident is still being discussed in this context even though you yourself admit you don't think it's indicative of arrogance just strikes me as odd at this point.

 

*  Obviously this is the case where certain individuals are concerned.  Arrogance becomes an increasingly prevalent trait among certain legions later in the Crusade, but that's neither here nor there. 

 

 

- A lot of Astartes died at the whim of that thing. The only defense of that as far as the Lion is concerned is that he didn't know the GD was on board until it speaks to him.

 

So what?  What's the point of even saying "the only defense"?  You don't need to defend a situation like that.  Having been appraised of the fact that there were nephilla on board, which only the Librarians, Navigators, and the Lion himself could destroy, the Lion made the only decision that made sense to save his ship.

 

Let me put it a different way:  in what way do you think the Lion acted improperly in that situation?  What action of his do you think needs defending?

 

 

 

- You left out the part where the Lion waves his hand to break the psychic link of the GD. It doesn't work at this point? Why not? Because the Lion has NO IDEA that this is a god of the warp and in its own element. 

 

Please clarify what you're saying here.  In the written story, the Lion realizes that the greater daemon keeps Corswain paralyzed - and thus has him at his mercy - through the use of its serpent eyes.  By gradually maneuvering himself around the daemon, the Lion forces it to rotate until it has to break eye contact with Corswain in order to keep tracking the primarch.  When that happens, the Lion yells to Corswain to attack just as he does.

 

 

- Again you mentioned Force Swords. No such thing exists in his arsenal. He never has the thought. He never mentions "I need this to kill a greater daemon". I can't proof a negative, he simply did know the full implication of what he was facing.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but... who cares?  That's a moot point if there's been one in this topic.  The Lion didn't know (in my opinion) he was going to face a greater daemon, so it's irrelevant.  The point is he did know he was going to face nephilla (meaning, the many daemons attacking the Invincible Reason), and he did know he could kill them with his bare hands.  When he was doing that, however, he was probably still growing up alone in the wilderness of Caliban - before he had access to proper weapons.  Worst case scenario, even if the swords he chose did absolutely nothing special*, they still add 3-4 feet (depending on the length of the blade) of reach to his attacks - and it makes sense to grab them.

 

* And that's simply not the case.  They were "... edged with a crystalline compound sharper than any metal, unbreakable and never needing to be sharpened.”  He was "enchanted" (and I read this as "highly impressed") by them when he first saw their edges.  Sounds like pretty special weapons to me.  And he did pick them out of a rather significant arsenal of weapons after Corswain informed him that their opponents were “... almost impervious to [their]] weapons.”  Force Weapons or not, they were clearly something the Lion thought as apropos to situations where he had to fight things that were really hard to kill.  ;)

 

 

 

- If you think that strangling a few of the minor creatures with his bare hands on Caliban means the Primarch knows and fully understands what a Daemon Prince of Chaos is, and what it can do... all the power to you, but in no way do I agree with that assessment from what you've written, or what I've read.

 

Again, though, that's irrelevant.  It's perfectly clear that the Lion (A) didn't know about the creature before he got to the main core chamber and (B) that he had no choice but to fight it regardless.  How this has any bearing on a topic that is about the Lion being arrogant is beyond me!  :D

 

Anyways... I hope I didn't come off too combative with this post.  It sounds like you yourself are struggling to find evidence of the Lion's purported arrogance in the novella "The Lion" itself.  I'm curious to hear what you have to say when you've read "Savage Weapons" and The Unremembered Empire.  There are some moments in the latter of those two where I don't think the Lion is arrogant, per se, but certainly makes some very questionable decisions.

 

Incidentally, have you read Descent of Angels or Fallen Angels?

[Bryan Blaire]

Azoriel, I think it's poor analysis of my statements to read them as me meaning that the Lion was involved in pointless navel gazing about his past. Nothing like that was said or indicated by my statements and is again reading things into words where there was no clear meaning as such.

 

All, I'll agree that the Lion knew that the swords were special (he indicates this in his thoughts), but there is nothing that indicates he knows or feels that these weapons are anything more than superior armaments that he will use to fight the Nephilia, whereas he had to do it unarmed as a youth (when he had no weapons). He attributes his ability to kill the Nephilia to his being a Primarch (in his thoughts), not to the weapons themselves (because by virtue of being mortal weapons, they can't kill Nephilia by themselves).

 

It's a nice theory to believe the weapons to be force weapons (and it may well be true), but it has no provided evidentiary fact per the text as written of the story (if you have to infer or read into the text to come to that conclusion, then it isn't a stated fact) to back up that theory. I can't find any evidence that there is a "crystalline structure" of any kind inherent in force weapons to make them that way, nor does the description of a force weapon in the BGB indicate this (or online either), nor that force weapons possess the other attributes of Hope and Despair. Without this, we have no reason to conclude that based on these descriptions of Hope and Despair that they are, in fact, force weapons.

 

So again, we can state with textual backing that the Lion intentionally takes weapons of known superior construction with him to fight the Nephilia and that he knows he can kill Nephilia because of his Primarch nature even when mortal weapons can't kill them. Stating anything beyond this as fact is not possible.

[Azoriel]

Azoriel, I think it's poor analysis of my statements to read them as me meaning that the Lion was involved in pointless navel gazing about his past. Nothing like that was said or indicated by my statements and is again reading things into words where there was no clear meaning as such.

My apologies - it was not my intention to put words in your mouth. (I will accept fault here as an incorrect assumption on my part.)

All, I'll agree that the Lion knew that the swords were special (he indicates this in his thoughts), but there is nothing that indicates he knows or feels that these weapons are anything more than superior armaments that he will use to fight the Nephilia, whereas he had to do it unarmed as a youth (when he had no weapons). He attributes his ability to kill the Nephilia to his being a Primarch (in his thoughts), not to the weapons themselves (because by virtue of being mortal weapons, they can't kill Nephilia by themselves).

It's a nice theory to believe the weapons to be force weapons (and it may well be true), but it has no provided evidentiary fact per the text as written of the story (if you have to infer or read into the text to come to that conclusion, then it isn't a stated fact) to back up that theory. I can't find any evidence that there is a "crystalline structure" of any kind inherent in force weapons to make them that way, nor does the description of a force weapon in the BGB indicate this (or online either), nor that force weapons possess the other attributes of Hope and Despair. Without this, we have no reason to conclude that based on these descriptions of Hope and Despair that they are, in fact, force weapons.

So again, we can state with textual backing that the Lion intentionally takes weapons of known superior construction with him to fight the Nephilia and that he knows he can kill Nephilia because of his Primarch nature even when mortal weapons can't kill them. Stating anything beyond this as fact is not possible.

Rather than continue to argue technicalities, I will simply say that I agree with your last statement (which I indeed do).

[High MarshalGR]

 

Firstly, I don't recall Lion El'Jonson ever claiming or pretending to be superior to any of his brothers, or The Emperor. Though many of his actions appear to be "showing off", they often have an ulterior motive. Primarchs are virtual demigods, and The Lion's flaws are far less visible than many of his brothers. Given the setting, aloofness, distrust and suspicion may not even qualify as flaws, but highly desired personality traits. The first legion has been cited through numerous editions of codices and other articles as having the greatest number of victories throughout the crusade, only eclipsed by the Sons of Horus. While I don't recall any evidence that he was the firstborn son, or the importance of it considering the primarchs were grown artificially, that would also be another point of pride. 

 

If being arrogant requires a sense of superiority, than you could place nearly any traitor primarch above him and his loyalist brothers on the list. Despite all their flaws, they never pretended to be superior to the Emperor, or claimed that they would be able to rule better. The loyalist primarchs accepted his right to rule, and though the personal feelings toward him differ greatly, they still served him faithfully. Horus didn't even try to corrupt El'Jonson, I doubt he believed for a moment that he even could. Instead he sent him away where he wouldn't be able to interfere in Horus' plans.

 

Instances of the Lion's Arrogance:

On Dulan, the Lion selfishly stole Russ' right to zergrush the citadel of the Tyrant of Dulath. Instead utilizing a battle plan that had been carefully devised using careful observation and tactics ( the coward! ), and sweeping through the defenses achieving victory. Upon being suckerpunched for fulfilling The Emperor's command, he proceeded to arrogantly thrash the Wolf...

 

Upon arriving at Macragge during the dark days of the heresy, and seeing the forces of Ultramar arrayed in flawless formation, he led his own force down to the surface and one-upped Guilliman. That the parade likely bolstered the morale of anyone who witnessed it ( Astartes or otherwise ), displaying solidarity amongst brothers in a universe being torn asunder by civil war, and gave the inhabitants of Ultramar visible proof that they were NOT alone...he did it because he's an arrogant jerk. Clearly.

 

Slapping off your chaplains head. Now, this is a tough one. I would love to defend his actions here, but i think he just screwed up. He was losing his soldiers against an enemy he couldnt harm, one he had been told didn't exist ( but given his origins, like knew otherwise ), and his one weapon against them was within his grasp....and he was told he couldnt use it by one of his sons. Given that ANY primarch would be extremely sensitive towards any implications of treason, i think Nemiel overstepped his bounds. Did he deserve to die for it? Absolutely not, and i think the Lion realized that after the second or third bounce of Nemiels head.

 

When all is said and done, I think that yes...he is extremely arrogant, but far from the most arrogant of the primarchs. I wouldn't rank him at the top ( Horus has that spot for primarchs, and The Emperor for the setting ), or the bottom ( Vulkan has that locked down in my opinion, with Corax being close ).

 

 

That's a pretty good answer in my eyes at the least. Also, we need to consider (as mentioned before) that while Horus had the highest ammount of victories in the crusade (first Primarch to be found), the Lion was second while crusading for far fewer years (50 if I remember correctly) with his Legion. Also, it's just a hypothesis (I can't remember the fluff supporting it), but I want to say this: Lion's arrogance is indeed there, but his arrogance has different motives then what his brothers does. Lion's arrogance isn't simply the arrogance of a demigod, but also originates from his fierce sense of loyalty to the Emperor alone. Lion's loyalty -for me- is the loyalty of a knight to his king. He might disobey orders, he might not give a damn about the Imperium or the Emprah's vision for mankind, but he gives his all for his loyalty. After being betrayed and lied from both Perturabo and Luther during the Heresy, the small ammounts of trust he could still show-after his terrible young age where he grew up initially to only trust himself- vanished as well. So, all in all, I don't think his arrogance is just the result of the "Oh wait, I'm one of the 20 sons of the Emperor, which is enough to believe I'm a god!", I think there is a different shade of arrogance in him.

 

That, along with the normal factors which make someone arrogant.