So, we actually know WHEN the two Legions were hunted down?

[blackoption]

 

 

Not all Legionnaires were hunted and killed, the ranks of the 13th have swollen greatly at that time.

 

As much as I thought that quote from TFH was interesting, even the author has said (on these forum boards) it was nothing more substantial than gossip and rumor mongering. So while it is perhaps technically possible, I do believe it is beyond extremely unlikely.

 

Except SOMEHOW at Second Founding the reportedly beaten and battered 13th had the manpower to spawn all the freaking Chapters, eclipsing most other Legions.

 

 

The numbers involved in the second founding have been growing since I first got involved in the hobby. With even the smaller legions now consisting of around 100k marines,  the 2nd founding is likely to grow even more.  I will also point out that the XIIIth were recruiting across the 500 worlds.  That alone could easily satisfy creating a legion of 250k marines.  Granted, it is still speculation at this point, as FW has not yet given the Ultramarines (or BA, DA, SW, WS, or TS) their deep dive into legion history around the Horus Heresy.

 

Don't mistake me, I actually thought it would be cool if the Ultramarine successors could have 3 different geneseeds amongst their ranks... but when ADB spoke on the matter, I realized that it was just a conspiracy theory... even if it is a really cool conspiracy theory.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

Not all Legionnaires were hunted and killed, the ranks of the 13th have swollen greatly at that time.

 

As much as I thought that quote from TFH was interesting, even the author has said (on these forum boards) it was nothing more substantial than gossip and rumor mongering. So while it is perhaps technically possible, I do believe it is beyond extremely unlikely.

 

Except SOMEHOW at Second Founding the reportedly beaten and battered 13th had the manpower to spawn all the freaking Chapters, eclipsing most other Legions.

 

The number of Ultramarines successors is said to be 23 at the 2nd founding. So (assuming the Ultramarines themselves aren't included in that number) 24,000 or so Ultras survive the Heresy/Scouring. That's relatively small potatoes by new Legion numbers. Plus bear in mind the XIII were apparently (haven't read their HH novel myself) recruiting from the 500 world of m30 era Ultramar, with a pre Heresy strength of around 250,000 Astartes. Given that other Legions could maintain 150,000+ numbers from a single primary recruitment world.They were recruiting from so many more worlds, and didn't face the attrition rates of Legions like the XII and IV, boosting their numbers further. If anything 250,000 is a tad small for such a large recruitment pool. There's simply no need for the Ultras to have artificially boosted their numbers with the II or XI, they could do it conventionally without trouble.

 

So no mystery, by the current numbers, even a  90% fatality rate over the course of the Heresy/Scouring would still leave the XIII with more than enough manpower for their stated number of successors.

[tdemayo]

It's nice to have some conspiracy theories floating around, especially plausible ones. I can certainly imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to absorb a few more marines. It fits with his penchant for building large structures by practical expediencies.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It's nice to have some conspiracy theories floating around, especially plausible ones. I can certainly imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to absorb a few more marines. It fits with his penchant for building large structures by practical expediencies.

Would he though? The II and XI had clearly done something wrong, or had something go wrong with them, otherwise they would still be extant. I'm sceptical that the practical, organised general Gulliman would be OK with absorbing such potentially unsound troops into his Legion.

[Wade Garrett]

Nothing happened to them. Therefore everything happened to them. They are Schrodinger's Legions

They were eaten by Sanguinus?

[Ordo Machinum]

@Leif Bearclaw:  ...Or it could explain why some 40K chapters would later turn renegade for various reasons.

 

Shrodinger's Legions? What's in the box, Emperor? What's in the box...?

[Teetengee]

Inside the box is both a living imperium and a dead one.

[Kol Saresk]

 

It's nice to have some conspiracy theories floating around, especially plausible ones. I can certainly imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to absorb a few more marines. It fits with his penchant for building large structures by practical expediencies.

Would he though? The II and XI had clearly done something wrong, or had something go wrong with them, otherwise they would still be extant. I'm sceptical that the practical, organised general Gulliman would be OK with absorbing such potentially unsound troops into his Legion.

 

He's willing to shelter an Iron Warrior. Why not other troops who proved their loyalty?

[Ordo Machinum]

Maybe the fault lay not with the Legions but within their Primarchs...

[Memento Of Prospero]

Or maybe there is no fault, and the primarchs were both in the same car accident coming back from a compliance party. Tragic meaningless deaths would cause the Emperor to want to sweep that under the rug.

[blackoption]

Archangel: Under that logic, Dantioch would be dead.  Guilliman would be of the mind set that the individual can prove loyal over coming his blood line.  Dantioch passed his test of Loyalty where his Genesire failed. 

 

40K imperium would purge them on principle though.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

 

Shrodinger's Legions? What's in the box, Emperor? What's in the box...?

 

The Missing Legions.

 

When you open the box they're dead and gone but with the lid closed they are alive! *maniacal laugh*

[tdemayo]

I guess it depends on what happened. If the legions suffered genetic corruption or something, then yeah they might be unviable. If they rebelled, as i tend to imagine, they might have had salvagable elements.

[Wade Garrett]

Except that time and time again, we've seen Primarchs and their Legions react to their brothers rising against the Emperor with shock and incomprehension, as if some fundamental truth of the universe had suddenly been overthrown.

 

It's hard to imagine that being the case if two Primarchs and their Legions had already rebelled against Terra and been wiped out for it.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

It's nice to have some conspiracy theories floating around, especially plausible ones. I can certainly imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to absorb a few more marines. It fits with his penchant for building large structures by practical expediencies.

Would he though? The II and XI had clearly done something wrong, or had something go wrong with them, otherwise they would still be extant. I'm sceptical that the practical, organised general Gulliman would be OK with absorbing such potentially unsound troops into his Legion.

 

He's willing to shelter an Iron Warrior. Why not other troops who proved their loyalty?

 

That's assuming the lost were merely disloyal, in which case why wouldn't Horus's traitors also be purged from the records? Whereas if geneseed degradation/alien influence rendered the Lost unsuitable (like Sanguinius apparently fears may happen to the BAs if knowledge of The Red Thirst leaks) then hiding them in the XIII would be a liability for Gulliman's Legion.

[Balthamal]

The only thing I find offf personally is Nostromo being destroyed much earlier than Nikea and then having their Chief Librarian turn up to argue the case.

[Adra'Melek]

Schrodinger's Legions people. The Ultramarines did take in loyal marines from the lost Legions. The Space Wolves also wiped them out completely. One Legion left the galaxy in stasis to explore the void. They're also kept in stasis below the Imperial Palace. The IInd are the Thunder Guardians...they were also destroyed before they were named.  The XIth became pacifists.  One of the Primarchs was even Sigmar.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

It's nice to have some conspiracy theories floating around, especially plausible ones. I can certainly imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to absorb a few more marines. It fits with his penchant for building large structures by practical expediencies.

Would he though? The II and XI had clearly done something wrong, or had something go wrong with them, otherwise they would still be extant. I'm sceptical that the practical, organised general Gulliman would be OK with absorbing such potentially unsound troops into his Legion.

He's willing to shelter an Iron Warrior. Why not other troops who proved their loyalty?

That's assuming the lost were merely disloyal, in which case why wouldn't Horus's traitors also be purged from the records? Whereas if geneseed degradation/alien influence rendered the Lost unsuitable (like Sanguinius apparently fears may happen to the BAs if knowledge of The Red Thirst leaks) then hiding them in the XIII would be a liability for Gulliman's Legion.

Actually most of the mainstream Imperium is censored from the Heresy, whether it just be the worst of it, or its entirety. So in a way, they were purged from record. Most of those who are aware of it are aware of it as a religious tale akin to Paradise Lost and its telling of the "war in heaven" with only a few(relatively speaking) fully aware of the horror of the Heresy.

 

But again, Guilliman has no problem harboring someone who has proven his loyalty to the Imperium. And as for liability, that becomes personal opinion as some will see a liability where there is none.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

Not all Legionnaires were hunted and killed, the ranks of the 13th have swollen greatly at that time.

 

As much as I thought that quote from TFH was interesting, even the author has said (on these forum boards) it was nothing more substantial than gossip and rumor mongering. So while it is perhaps technically possible, I do believe it is beyond extremely unlikely.

 

Except SOMEHOW at Second Founding the reportedly beaten and battered 13th had the manpower to spawn all the freaking Chapters, eclipsing most other Legions.

 

The number of Ultramarines successors is said to be 23 at the 2nd founding. 

 

 

Yes and no, though. No one knows the exact number with Imperial records being what they are. It's said there's 23 mentioned in the most reliable text on the matter, the Apocrypha of Skaros, which is (of course!) also said to be incomplete and unreliable.

 

I'm not disagreeing, Leif; just clarifying.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 

Not all Legionnaires were hunted and killed, the ranks of the 13th have swollen greatly at that time.

 

As much as I thought that quote from TFH was interesting, even the author has said (on these forum boards) it was nothing more substantial than gossip and rumor mongering. So while it is perhaps technically possible, I do believe it is beyond extremely unlikely.

 

Except SOMEHOW at Second Founding the reportedly beaten and battered 13th had the manpower to spawn all the freaking Chapters, eclipsing most other Legions.

 

The number of Ultramarines successors is said to be 23 at the 2nd founding. 

 

 

Yes and no, though. No one knows the exact number with Imperial records being what they are. It's said there's 23 mentioned in the most reliable text on the matter, the Apocrypha of Skaros, which is (of course!) also said to be incomplete and unreliable.

 

I'm not disagreeing, Leif; just clarifying.

 

Oh absolutely. I somewhat doubt the XIII will take a 90% fatality rate during the Heresy/Scouring, and I'd also be surprised if the Ultras weren't still recruiting during this period. So there being a fair slice more than 24,000 Marines left is a safe assumption imo. I was just using a known number to illustrate how even a heavily battered XIII Legion could still account for their known successors, and there's no need for their numbers to be artifically boosted with the Lost Legions.

 

 

 

 

 

It's nice to have some conspiracy theories floating around, especially plausible ones. I can certainly imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to absorb a few more marines. It fits with his penchant for building large structures by practical expediencies.

Would he though? The II and XI had clearly done something wrong, or had something go wrong with them, otherwise they would still be extant. I'm sceptical that the practical, organised general Gulliman would be OK with absorbing such potentially unsound troops into his Legion.

He's willing to shelter an Iron Warrior. Why not other troops who proved their loyalty?

That's assuming the lost were merely disloyal, in which case why wouldn't Horus's traitors also be purged from the records? Whereas if geneseed degradation/alien influence rendered the Lost unsuitable (like Sanguinius apparently fears may happen to the BAs if knowledge of The Red Thirst leaks) then hiding them in the XIII would be a liability for Gulliman's Legion.

Actually most of the mainstream Imperium is censored from the Heresy, whether it just be the worst of it, or its entirety. So in a way, they were purged from record. Most of those who are aware of it are aware of it as a religious tale akin to Paradise Lost and its telling of the "war in heaven" with only a few(relatively speaking) fully aware of the horror of the Heresy.

 

But again, Guilliman has no problem harboring someone who has proven his loyalty to the Imperium. And as for liability, that becomes personal opinion as some will see a liability where there is none.

 

 

True, but many, many citizens in m41 do know about the Traitor Legions is some capacity, to the extent that the rank of Warmaster is often viewed with suspicion. Even if he's just the devil in the myths, the name of Horus is known. Whereas the Lost, nothing is known, or what is cannot be spoken of.

 

I feel that for such an extreme reaction, especially in the 'enlightened' time of 30k, something worse than mere treachery probably befell the II and XI.

[Teetengee]

Perhaps a spell was wrought by groups unknown to remove all trace of them? What could they have done that was so bad, or what was done to them that was so bad, or what secret was so worth keeping that all records would be expunged? (not rhetorical, I think it could be an interesting discussion)

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I'm just confused with the whole 'Send the wolves to do it' lark, but saying that I am quite black and white in my perception of the legions,

 

aka, i'd never expect to see iron hands willing joining Horus's lot, same as i'd never expect to see the ultras willingly harbour word bearers etc, just seems that with the ammount of conditioning SPHESS MERHEENES go though that any soldier would be little more than a brainwashed pawn to be used and directed, the fact that they are picked as children then go through all the YOU belong to the imperium and serve only the Imperium every day of heir natural life, how can a marine/soldier remain focused and sworn to one set of ideals and still even show any hint of a personality? I know having battle brothers could help you get through it, as in generic human interaction, but the thought of a legion having any true sense of real self identity and then willingly turning upon their masters (even if aided by chaos) seems completely :S to me.

 

I could see why the imperium would rather view them as mindless subordinate monsters of a distant past and would rather forget about them all together.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Also, is there necessarily any background that states when the Legions were divided, each chapter was 1000 strong immediately? We know when later chapters were founded, they had to grow in number. I'm not suggesting that a single company might become a chapter in the 2nd founding, but maybe a battalion? 500 Astartes pledged to grow to 1000?

 

Now this obviously depends on when the chapters were formed in relation to the Scouring - if these new formations were active when the Scouring occurred, obviously being at full strength would be ideal. But its likely that Legions were divided at different stages, owing to the known opposition to Guilliman's plan - some would be less keen than others to divide their strength, especially those with living Primarchs.

 

Besides, 23 chapters isn't really that big a deal compared to the size of the largest Legion, even considering losses from the Heresy. We know multiple chapters from each Legion operated separately from their main force - if those elements from the XIII Legion that only took a peripheral role in the Heresy due to isolation from the main conflicts were recalled, it would be entirely possible 23 chapters could be formed from their numbers alone.

 

This suggestion might be entirely inaccurate, but as stated by A D-B, Imperial records of the second founding are notoriously inaccurate - its entirely possible that Chapters stated as being Ultramarines successors did in fact have different progenitors. We know that a number of different marine factions were drawn into the XIII Legion's fold during the Heresy - consider the ideological differences between fragments of the Shattered Legions, and the groups of Legionaries who's Primarchs were the Warmaster's allies, but were separated from the bulk of their Legions when the Heresy began? Its possible that a few of these Chapters were listed as successors to the Ultramarines to avoid remnants of a history the Imperium would rather forget. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

I'm just confused with the whole 'Send the wolves to do it' lark, but saying that I am quite black and white in my perception of the legions,

 

aka, i'd never expect to see iron hands willing joining Horus's lot, same as i'd never expect to see the ultras willingly harbour word bearers etc, just seems that with the ammount of conditioning SPHESS MERHEENES go though that any soldier would be little more than a brainwashed pawn to be used and directed, the fact that they are picked as children then go through all the YOU belong to the imperium and serve only the Imperium every day of heir natural life, how can a marine/soldier remain focused and sworn to one set of ideals and still even show any hint of a personality? I know having battle brothers could help you get through it, as in generic human interaction, but the thought of a legion having any true sense of real self identity and then willingly turning upon their masters (even if aided by chaos) seems completely :S to me.

 

I could see why the imperium would rather view them as mindless subordinate monsters of a distant past and would rather forget about them all together.

Well it comes down to who each marine ultimately believes their 'master' to be. The majority of the Traitors seem to have been caught up in the cults of personality the demi god Primarchs generated. They served their fathers, so when the father rebelled, they followed due to their ultimate loyalty being to the Primarch, not the Emperor. Whereas other Marine's loyalty was to the Emperor and the ideals of the Crusade, and so they remained loyal. This is especially apparent for the Death Guard, where the majority of the Terran veterans either remained loyal or weren't trusted to turn.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

 

I'm just confused with the whole 'Send the wolves to do it' lark, but saying that I am quite black and white in my perception of the legions,

 

aka, i'd never expect to see iron hands willing joining Horus's lot, same as i'd never expect to see the ultras willingly harbour word bearers etc, just seems that with the ammount of conditioning SPHESS MERHEENES go though that any soldier would be little more than a brainwashed pawn to be used and directed, the fact that they are picked as children then go through all the YOU belong to the imperium and serve only the Imperium every day of heir natural life, how can a marine/soldier remain focused and sworn to one set of ideals and still even show any hint of a personality? I know having battle brothers could help you get through it, as in generic human interaction, but the thought of a legion having any true sense of real self identity and then willingly turning upon their masters (even if aided by chaos) seems completely :S to me.

 

I could see why the imperium would rather view them as mindless subordinate monsters of a distant past and would rather forget about them all together.

Well it comes down to who each marine ultimately believes their 'master' to be. The majority of the Traitors seem to have been caught up in the cults of personality the demi god Primarchs generated. They served their fathers, so when the father rebelled, they followed due to their ultimate loyalty being to the Primarch, not the Emperor. Whereas other Marine's loyalty was to the Emperor and the ideals of the Crusade, and so they remained loyal. This is especially apparent for the Death Guard, where the majority of the Terran veterans either remained loyal or weren't trusted to turn.

  

True, this i realise, just the whole deciation to ones legion seems strange, i prefer the story arch of mechanicum, where you get the chance to see why normal (well half mechanised) men would apply their reasoning to justify their belief in the side they picked,  I always consider Space marines to be less than even  people at times, blind faith in a legion that does nothing to reinforce even the basic concept of hummanity at induction? i know chaplains and that are supposed to offer support and guidance but how can they when they are a biproduct of the same system which churns out sm's?

 

Sorry, don't mean to go of on a tangent but to me, if I can try and get in the head of an astartee, it helps me to make some kind of mental note which helps me to understand why the 2 missing legions may of turned traitor or simply buggered off.

 

Also, the less imperialised legions, like Night lords, Space wolves (in particular) and white scars, which allow a more natural approach the inducting a recruit actually seem more normal to me than their counterparts, but then why send  a less conditoned legion to take down another? apart from their generic feral savagery of course.