elithren Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Thanks to the black library and 30k, I've read most of the HH books now and am finding a pretty interesting contradiction in the goals of the Emperor vs actuality. A lot of which revolves around the Imperial Truth, i.e. there is no such thing as a god and religion is bad. According to the HH and revelation that comes to Lorgar, the Imperial Truth would slowly kill off Chaos as no one would be offering them prayers. But, there are stories about how faith in the big E would have various miracles happen (see SoB). Also, Grey knights use faith as a weapon against daemons and chaos in general. So, if the big E isn't a god, how are these various acts of faith actually manifesting? Is it like orks and that it's just an psychic reaction due to the belief that something will happen? I have my own opinion about it. The big E is indeed divine but decided to not promote it as it would make mankind more susceptible to worshiping chaos. If mankind did follow the Imperial Truth and had no belief in such powerful warp/deitic beings, there wouldn't be a repeat of Dark Night and chaos would no longer be a threat due to their diminished strength. Sure, you'll still have warp storms, their power and effect has yet to be determined if it's related to the relative strength of the chaos gods (may be wrong on that) but you wont have daemonic incursions into realspace as there isn't a conduit for them to go through (see cultists). This would explain why the various acts of faith and "holy" relics/saints do have an effect, even though the big E tried to denounce his godhood. Curious to see what others think about it. Plz share! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta galactosidase Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I want to hold up, right away, before everyone rehashes their stuff. What if, elithren, the Horus Heresy were a series of books, and they had an over all moral arc? This being that even though the Emperor, in the beginning of the story, propagates the Imperial Truth, the point of telling the story at all is that he is not completely correct and the truth is gradually revealed by the narrative? Ok. Chaos, the thing that is the enemy of the Emperor, is the structural id. That is, when you are ruled by chaos, you satisfy all your base impulses without thinking about the consequences (like the fate of your eternal soul, or just whether you are maintaining you society or not). WHEN or IF you rely on the Imperial Truth to counter it, you are counting on your ego, that is your rational calculations of what is best and how to avoid chaos. HOWEVER, it doesn't always work, because sometimes you are unconscious or your id is too strong or... whatever. It didn't work for the crusade era Imperium. Luckily, there is is a third structure in the psyche, which is the superego. This is the divine, the knowledge of things beyond your own existence. Like, for example, when you save the future of the Imperium and are mortally wounded in the process. You'll notice that most of the imperial miracles you are talking about happen to people who are martyring themselves in one way or another, or at least who have giving up their secular lives. Anyway, it isn't unusual for stories to have, you know, arcs or progression of some kind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3725740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 [Citation needed] for Lorgar being told the Imperial Truth would kill Chaos in the Horus Heresy novels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3725784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elithren Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Granted, I may just be overreading into it. I know the revelation thing was during his pilgrimage, near the end but I'll try and find a page number. But I was mainly just wanting to hear what others thought about the divine vs not divine of the big E. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3725793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The big E is not devine, not a god, does not gain power/strength from worship. IMO. The four big Chaos Gods are the flip side. The Imperial Truth may well have worked, had the Emperor not been wounded to a point of eternal death on the Golden Thrown. People started believing in the Emperor as devine and if there is a devine good, there must be an opposite. eg Chaos gods. The Gods gained more power than ever, so their plan worked, the Emperor is now purely psychic, big win for the Chaos Gods, the Primarchs turned evil, or died, massive win for the Chaos Gods, Humanity is teetering on the edge of oblivion and has nothing except the forces the Emperor left behind. God Emperor help us in these times of trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3725906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 How ever, when the big war comes and the GK turn off the Golden Throne, the Emperor can finally leave his mortal body, release all the dead Primarch souls he has been saving, be reborn with all his saved Primarchs into bodies prepared for them on Mars and then 40K becomes 41K. Deamon Gods, The Emperor, The Primarchs, that would be one hell of a fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3725910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I think the larger question is who/what/how powers the SoB 'Acts of Faith'. If there isn't a 'Good' God doing so. And if there is, *who* is that God? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 'Acts of Faith' do not require a God to be powered. IMO By definition an 'Act of Faith' is powered by the person carrying out said act. Maybe the power for 'Acts of Faith' is generated by the SoB themselves by their utter belief in their convictions? "The Emperor Protects." Yes he does, but not physically any more. The Astronomican, psychic battles with Chaos, etc. Yes. Physically, the Emperor protects with his armies, his battle fleets, Inquisition, SoB and his Adeptus Astartes. Well, that's my take on the whole thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 How do normal Humans enact special powers, without Psychic potential? Can all Humans do this? Can they do it in a solid belif of *anything*? Also; Also, Grey knights use faith as a weapon against daemons and chaos in general The GK don't use Faith, they use Sorcerery. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 How do normal Humans enact special powers, without Psychic potential? Can all Humans do this? Can they do it in a solid belif of *anything*? ALL humanity carries out Acts of Faith everyday. Some good, some insane, some bad. Faith is the one thing in the universe that if proven, would remove the need for it. Faith that a God exists. Prove the God exists, you don't need faith, because the existance becomes fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Meybe the Emperor was wrong, he should have proven the existance of Gods. LOL Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 ALL humanity carries out Acts of Faith everyday. Every single human in the 40k universe can make thier mundane sidearm Rending through belief alone? I doubt that. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Rending? No Brother, but having faith in your ability to aim, will help the shot hit the target. Self belief can make a huge difference. The faithless scum, the heretic rabble, just spray bullets every where, hoping for a hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 You might feel like your belief has helped your aim, but it was just luck. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Actually, the "spray and pray" method of aiming is the hallmark of the faithful, because they leave success in God's hands. "If God wishes the bullets to hit, the bullets would hit." However, what we see with the Sisters of Battle is that they are highly trained, highly motivated, and highly focused on their belief. A Sister doesn't spray and pray, she places precission shots knowing full well that each round will hit its target. A Sister will calming walk forth into a hail of enemy fire knowing beyond any doubt that she will be unharmed because her task is righteous, her gear is superior, and her training is mighty. That is the heart of their Acts of Faith. They have faith in their training, their equipment, and their goals, and they know that that faith gives then an edge over the unwashed masses. The difference between a Sister of Battle's doctrine and that of a Space Marine is that Marines know they can take a hit so will take a hit if needed, while a Sister knows she's smaller target and can duck. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 If the faith is just wishful thinking, then who resurrects all these living saints? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3726881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Perpetuals have a small background in the fluff. I'm not too up to date on it. But the vast majority of Humanity aren't Perpetuals. A few, mutations, here or there, sure. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elithren Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 Exactly! Another thing I found odd was that in one of the salamander books in BL, they have to protect a living saint girl. Where is this special power coming from?! I'm thinking it's either something inertly psycher based or the big E is indeed a deity and just thought mankind would be better off not having a god, him included. If that is the case, would make a bit more sense to me, personally, about Grey Knights not being corrupted since their gene seed is based on him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Imperial Truth could never have worked, because there is no Chaos God of Religion, or Worship. Khorne doesn't gain power by a bunch of people sitting in a temple singing "There Is Power In The Blood", he draws strength from acts of violence committed in a state of rage. It doesn't matter if the killing is done in the name of the Blood God, the Emperor, a nation, a tribe, or the principles of logic and reason themselves, "KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHERE THE BLOOD FLOWS, ONLY THAT IT DOES!" If you fight, if you rage, you feed the ocean of blood that laps at the base of the Skull Throne. Whether or not you believe in the Chaos Gods is irrelevant, for they most certainly believe in you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The Emperor is an immensely powerful psychic being, who in some way represents and draws power from humanity. Whether that makes him a "god" or not depends on your definition of "god." He has a body, he can die, and he is not fully a creature of the warp. But he definitely has more of an effect on the warp than he lets on, and seems to power miracles or is their focus. The Imperial Truth is thus a lie, or at least a half-truth. The Emperor thinks it's best that humans not know about the powers of the warp, or know about them in only the most minimal way possible. Certainly, they shouldn't be messing about with them, or worshiping them. So he keeps humanity ignorant, and gives them an alternative creed that will better focus their energies for other purposes, and keep them from hurting themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trokair Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The imperial truth is correct, there are no gods. Just immensely powerful entities in the wrap (Chaos), Psychic gestalt (Eldar, Ork, humanity, hive mind, physical (C’tan, Eldar (Kain, maybe others), Old Ones. The difference between these and a god form our perspective is so small that it makes no difference to us. As for the Emperor, not divine. But enough emotions, believe and psychic powers dedicated to him gives him and/or his follows powers beyond the mundane. Same principle as Gork and Mork being a divine manifestation of the Ork races consciousness. All creatures with souls affect the wrap a little, an can be affected by it in return. On a scale Eldar are the most psychic/wrap presence, Tau the least, with humans, tyranids, and ork in between. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It doesn't matter if the killing is done in the name of the Blood God, the Emperor, a nation, a tribe, or the principles of logic and reason themselves, "KHORNE CARES NOT FROM WHERE THE BLOOD FLOWS, ONLY THAT IT DOES!" If that actually is the case, everyone is :cussed. No matter what you do, or who you are, Khorne grows in power and there is *nothing* you can do to stop him. As either his manifestation are killing in his name, and no one fights back. Or you fight back and make him stronger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 That unfortunately is the truth about Khorne and Chaos. Nurgle is the same, live and rot, or die and rot. Its all the same to the Grandfather. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Unless you're a Perpetual. Or a Cyborg. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOTT_FRANCIS Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Nice, but Cyborgs can rust, decay is decay. Perpetuals, there is a good one. Possibly Slaanesh, temptation is a worry to most. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292801-the-imperial-truth/#findComment-3727462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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