Challenges and Outside Forces

[Andhil]

So, this is a small issue that came up when we played our first game, and since it came up again during our second game, it might be time to ask here.

Situation:

A Squad of Templars charge a Daemon Prince. The Daemon Prince and the Sword Brother sergeant fight in a challenge.

Does the rest of the Templar squad stand by idling, or do they get to strike as well?

Under the point "Outside Forces" it says that other models locked in the combat can allocate wounds to the models involved in a challenge. after all other enemy models have been removed as casualties.

So, the question remains. They can allocate wounds, but nowhere does it state that they can attack the model in the challenge (ie; roll to hit.)

It makes sense in a simpler case.

Example:

Templar squad charges Ork Squad. Nob and Sword Brother fight a challenge. The Templars wipe out the Orks with 3 wounds remaining in the pool. These are then allocated to the Nob.

Either way. What do you guys say? Can the unit attack, or not?

NOTE: also, if we missed something obvious, I'm blaming English being my second language!

[Raeven]

It's ambiguous at best.  I think most reports assume that outside forces can now attack the models in the challenge.

 

I don't necessarily think the wording of the rule supports that interpretation, but until we hear it officially either interpretation works.

[Quixus]

So you are saying a single model unit challenging a character in a unit with other models will have one of two outcomes:

- the character accepts the challenge and the rest of the unit stands around doing nothing

- the character refuses, he cannot fight, but the challenger can wipe out the whole unit including the character.

 

I don't think the rules support that a single model unit (whether by design or by casualties) can completely shut down the rest of a unit by challenging the character in that unit. 

 

Additionally I find it weird that for example the sensible course of action for an Assault Terminator Sergeant being challenged by a daemon prince is to refuse the challenge so that, instead of having to hammer on the daemon himself, his four or more buddies can hack it to pieces.

[Raeven]

I'm not saying it makes sense, but yes, that is what the rules as written supports.  Allocating wounds is not the same thing as saying they can roll to hit and to wound against the opposing challenger.

[Quixus]

Does it actually say that contrary to the normal combat rules, the rest of the unit may not attack the challenger?

[Dam13n]

Actually there is nothing stating that a model in a challenge cannot be attacked by outside forces. The assault phase allows engaged models to attack the unit (in this case the character) however wounds caused by these attacks can only be allocated to the character in the challenge if he's left on his own.

 

Page 48-49 determines that any model engaged at their initiative step can fight, which means they can roll to hit against the majority WS of the unit they are attacking (in this case the lone enemy character).

Page 103 states that wounds caused by these attacks can only be allocated to a character in a challenge after all other enemy models in the combat are slain (if any).

 

There is nothing stating that outside forces are not engaged with the character in the challenge.  Nor anything disallowing pile-in moves in order to get models engaged with said character.

 

So a lone character can't protect himself for a turn by declaring a challenge.

[Raeven]

True.  You would default back to the assault phase order of operations and the Challenge portion only lists the exceptions and not the rules.

 

Still, could have been worded much clearer.

[Quixus]

So a lone character can't protect himself for a turn by declaring a challenge.

But he can insure that one opposing character will be the first of the unit to die.

[SonOfThunder]

I'd say this is even more confusing because in 6th other members in the unit could not interfere in the challenge. In 7th the rules don't say anything about any unit not fighting, all it says is that the miniatures in the challenge must fight against each other with their respective WS and T. And wounds don't fall to the challenge till everyone else is dead. Players that were used to the rule in 6th still try to read the old ruling in the new one.

[SvenONE]

Yeah it was a pretty big change, also note the lack of Morale Support/Get 'em Boss in the new edition.

[SyNidus]

Encountered this issue for the first time yesterday. We decided to roll off and carry on, but returned to the question later. The thing is this, the specific section which talks about allocating wounds INTO the duel does not specifically say they can make hits in the first place.

 

If they had intended that attacks can be allocated in, then they would have said as much. But they didn't: they said allocating "Wounds". Thus it is clear that they are referring to wounds.

As for how this is possible? It's simple, the same way excess wounds may spill out of a challenge, excess wounds may spill into the challenge as well. That, makes most sense without bending any other rules.

[Morollan]

 

If they had intended that attacks can be allocated in, then they would have said as much. But they didn't: they said allocating "Wounds". Thus it is clear that they are referring to wounds.

 

But is there anything in the rules that actually prevents attacks being allocated to a model in a challenge in the first place?

[Ozshock]

think about it this way...the orc unit has been wiped out, leaving the Nob Leader (passes his Ld etc)...why would the marines stand there watching their sargent take on the nob leader and do nothing about it?

 

they would jump in and rip it to shreds is what they would do...i assume thats what the rule is trying to cover

[Nusquam]

Depending on chapter, the marines may just watch. It is a duel of honor.

 

I don't have the book on me but this is how I see it:

 

The combatants in the duel fight, can only hit each other. Permission to allocate excessive wounds.

 

Units fight. Can not hit those in a challenge. Permission to allocate excessive wounds.

 

So we can only allocate left over wounds. We cant strike into the challenge. Duel of honor this and that that those pages like to constantly reference.

 

I hate challenges personally. It shouldn't be so penalizing.

[Quixus]

Am I getting this right?

 

A single model character (e.g. Mephiston) challenges a character in a unit or an attached IC (e.g Aspiring Champion in a unit of CSM). If the Aspiring champion accepts, the rest of the unit cannot attack Mephiston and thus also cannot allocate excess wounds on him, but the single character can allocate all excess wounds on the rest of the squad? If he declines, he stands around looking stupid, while his unit is getting slaughtered?

[Nusquam]

Like I said; They can allocate the excess wounds into the challenge but they are prevented from striking into it.

 

As far, as the decline goes. Chaos marines can't decline. Everybody else stands around unfortunately. I want a character that can decline and just wade into bloody melee in like he doesn't care and have no penalties. Like "No time for honor when there's blood to be spilt" ha

[Morollan]

Like I said; They can allocate the excess wounds into the challenge but they are prevented from striking into it.

 

 

 

I don't see anything that prevents a model in a challenge from being attacked. Do you have a reference for this?

 

Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, at which point assault moves have already been made and the units are locked in combat. If you pile in on your initiative step so that you are engaged with the enemy model in the challenge and there are no other enemy models in the combat then there is nothing to prevent you from allocating your attacks to the model in the challenge. Wounds however can only be allocated if there are no other enemy models locked in that combat.

 

 

[Dam13n]

You don't allocate attacks... You allocate wounds.  With the exception of multiple combats, which is clearly not being discussed here.

 

Models engaged in a combat may attack.  They roll to hit against the majority weapon skill of the enemy unit that are engaged with, they wound against the majority toughness.  Those wounds are allocated and saves are taken.

 

The challenge rules tell us that these wounds can only be allocated to a character in a challenge if he is the last model standing from his unit, which he is if he was on his own to begin with.

[Nusquam]

I see now. Looking at the book, it's a different framework. Previously(6th) those in a challenge were effectively isolated. Now(7th) challenges aren't isolated, they just adjust the timing/order and allocation of the wounds so that challengees hit each other first and outside forces hit each other first. Totally different mindset. I didn't see it until I ignored how 6th ed challenges worked and then added 7th ed challenges to the current assault framework.

 

Probably would have been easy for someone starting off in 7th as opposed to someone drawing from past expereince on how a rule worked.

 

Better than 6th, but I still hate the massive penalty for declining.

[Ozshock]

yeh half the problem with rules conondrums right now, you have to completely forget how you played it in 6th...it is irrelevant at this point and just confuses many of the ruleings

[Polythemus]

I've experienced this as well. Models in the challenge direct everything at each other. Outside forces direct everything at each other first. If wounds remain to be allocated after the models they were directed at were declared dead only then can they spill over to models in the rest of the unit. If a challenge consists of a multi model unit and a single model unit the single model unit can't be hurt by anyone outside the challenge. Single model units have the advantage when they challenge, because usually they have the upper had against units with characters, and can only be hurt by the character or only hurt by the unit, but never both.

 

Edit: sorry for anyone that read my original post that made very little sense.

[GreyCrow]

Like Morollan and Dam1en said, there's nothing that prevents the Outside forces to attack if there's only a single enemy character standing a challenge. It's still part of the unit, and the unit isn't destroyed. Technically the Outside Forces will attack the enemy unit, not the enemy character in the challenge. It so happens that he is the last remaining member of the unit, and thus the majority Ws and the majority Toughness of the unit is that of the character remaining.

 

The explanation I have for that is that, even though it is counter intuitive, Challenges are rules for wound allocation inside the units. When 2 units with 2 characters challenge each other, we don't have 4 units. In 6th we kind of had, but no more. We have 2 units with new priority rules for wound allocation.

[Morollan]

If a challenge consists of a multi model unit and a single model unit the single model unit can't be hurt by anyone outside the challenge. Single model units have the advantage when they challenge, because usually they have the upper had against units with characters, and can only be hurt by the character or only hurt by the unit, but never both.

 

Not sure where this is coming from really. Do you have any rules references? I don't see anything that keeps a single model unit safe in a challenge from anyone else involved in the same combat.