Prot Presents: Az-Zeke Bomb vs Bugtown 2.0 Batrep

[Prot]

Hey Guys,

This might be my last for a bit. I just wanted to prove to myself that Azrael Bomb does work in 7th edition and now I've played approximately 5 games with it and reported on about half of them. This is the second against Nids.

The Lists (by memory) 1850pts:

NIDS:

Dakka Flyrant

Genestealers x ??? with a Broodlord

30 Gaunts

Tervigon

2 x Mawlocs

A few flying things.... 2 of them on top of the Flyrant (He said they were anti flyer but two different models.)

2 Hive Guard

2 x 3 Zoanthropes (starting to hate these in 7th)

A few smaller dudes who were launching Ordnance (sorry forgot the name)

My List:

Azrael with Ezekeil in a Pod with 8 Vets (meltagun, fist, poweraxe, 3 double armed)

10 Tacticals flamer, Pod 2

7 Tacticals Plasma Cannon (they were in the second floor of the Bastion firing the Plasma Cannon and a mounted Heavy Bolter)

6 Bikes (2 meltaguns these get combat squaded)

Attack Bike MM +the bright green units account for 6 super scoring units+

Dread w Plasma Canon in Pod w/XA (done with Venerable dreads, wanted to try vanilla)

7 man Dev squad with 4 Lascannons manning the Quad Cannon on top floor of Bastion

Whirlwind

5 Black Knights ,Rad Grenade

The Game:

We played a Malestrom mission where you start with 3 Tactical Objectives and you can complete your own as well a your opponent's 'Control Objective X' for points.

After trying to fairly deploy the objectives, I went first and plopped my Bastion down with Whirlwind behind it. Devs on top with Quad and Tacticals on second floor with Plasma Cannon and manning a Heavy Bolter. I positioned the Bastion near an objective for late game shenanigans. (6" from the door)

My opponent deployed in a tight 'cube' shape with Gaunts, 6 Zoanthropes, 10ish Genestealers. In the ruins to the West, he put his indirect fire guys, his Hive Guard, and his Tervigon to spawn children.

Deployment: Hmmm-mmm... look at all those juicy bugs nice and tight for me.

First Turns:

The way this list works best is I'm SUPER aggressive. So I turbo the bikes out in every direction. Instantly he recognizes how fast bikes can be (I still trust them more than anything else because I come from Ravenwing and I feel comfortable with what they can and can't do.)

I declare the Tacticals and Az-zeke bomb will drop. First turn. Again with the extreme aggression tactic, I push them right up against his 'box o' bugs' on his deployment line.

Whirlwind fires (does nothing as usual). Az-Zeke drop down right on the objective. I always take the Objective Warlord Trait from the codex. So now I have feel no pain in the squad. Azrael starts barking out orders and a lot of bugs, minor bugs. start dropping.

The Zoanthropes are in my head, I see them erasing bikes or at least making me Jink which kills me in 7th. (still hate it). The Zoanthropes make a STUPID amount of saves. In the heat of the moment I am firing Lascannon Devs at them hoping to insta gib but that was incredibly stupid.

Still with bikes zooming, and things looking strong in the middle I have one really bad turn of luck in drawing my first three objective cards.... But here's a piece of advice for those of you that complain about how this ruins your game. You wanna know how to combat that? You make sure your opponent can't get any in his turn.

Nid Turn:

He realizes he's in deep trouble on his turn. He starts the Tervigon daycare up and Azrael can smell the birthing a mile away. Tons of Zoanthrope powers are firing off but Ezekeil senses the danger of one blast and shuts it down with 3 denial throws!

At this stage in the game I think I steal one of his Objective X cards (I did this at least twice in the game, he never got one of mine.) I own probably 75% of the map already and he is worried about Azrael as is usual. In this game I finally made about 3-4 Feel No Pain throws. The vest were resilient.

The Nids did take advantage of my grouping up and I couldn't believe how many templates he dropped.

Mid Game:

My opponent was giving me the line I've heard a lot lately... he was just about ready to give up because I had a staggering lead. But I told him to hold on because this is the way my list goes.... I typically get my opponent in such a hole, they have to dig out. But my army fades hard in late turns because my model count is somewhat low (extra tacticals this game did help a bit).

Early game still the Black Knights and other bikes are zooming in. The Nid Square dance in the middle is turning into a slaughter. He can't reinforce it fast enough... but reserves are coming....

The Dread comes in, scatters off a bit to the Eastern Corner where he is safe from most of the nasty shooty nids, however he is doing just about nothing, so gets close to an objective.

I collect several more points and I am around 10 points, my opponent has 3 he's still discouraged, but I tell him to start spreading out and trying to wipe me.

On his turn ALL of his reserves come in! D'oh.

And as usual (this happens to me every game against Nids).... get ready for this......

*POOF* Black Knights be gone!! Mawloc one scatters too much. Mawloc one gets a bullseye and all Black Knights are erased yet again without a save.

Azrael looks on at the destruction but he is not phased. The task at hand is still to wipe out the centre and take Bugtown back....

Ezekeil has largely done nothing this game, as he usually does. His best moment has been denial saves of 4+. However with Ordnance coming down, my opponent inadvertantly is sniping Ezekeil since all saves must be made from the center hole of the blast.

So I decide at 2+/5++ I might as well go for it.... Ezekeil isn't fond of bugtown.... takes his wounds and dies an uneventful death.

My bikes are getting clobbered by fire power. I can't get close enough to use melta without risking really bad assaults. So I disperse for objectives.

As if it couldn't get worse, The Bastion is threatened. So his the Whirlwind but no one cares because the driver is sleeping to a Gav Thorpe audio book and can't hit a barn..... this punk deep strikes in zooming with guns blazing. I somehow get a wound off of him with the Quad but he saves his grounding test.

The flyers were really killing me... one had blasts and was trying to kill my dread, the Dakka Flyrant was shooting the crap out of the Dev squad. A tactical objective came up, and I had to disembark my Tactical squad on the second floor to get it.... they wobbled out.... sat on the objective. Sure enough Mr. Flyrant followed the small of plasma in the air and pasted them again, killing 2. But I still held the objectve even with him in the ruins since I am super scoring.

I would cause 4 wounds on this guy and he'd never fail his Grounding test. (He hasn't failed them in 7th. I"m telling you Flyrants are insane in 7th edition. Every game has been this way for me....)

Late Game:

We add up the points. I have a huge lead but watch it diminish. I have one bike in the center ruins and only 3 gaunts are guarding the objective. I shoot, miss, then charge into the gaunts but roll snake eyes!!! D'oh.

The Tacticals hold on as long as they can...

The Mawlocs are wrecking everything... Azrael commands the Tacticals to hold but the Mawlocs finally kill them. The Dread lumbers in to reinforce but he too falls to the Mawlocs.... Pods start blowing up and the East is lost to smelly, oversized bugs and a flyer.

The view from the Nid's deployment zone: Mid zone is lost for the nids and this cowardly Tervigon watches the destruction in the safety of the Gaunt daycare centre.

Azrael fueled with the hatred of his lost Librarian charges into the Tervigon which has come out of hiding.

Azrael and 4 vets remain. They leave the objective (guarded by pod) to destroy the cowardly beast.

In turn 5 the game continues. I can't quite kill the Tervigon and need one more turn to remove its last wound.

The Flyrant is forced to land as it tries to contest my objective beside the Bastion..... but he has to kill 5 tacticals to do it... or does he? He kills 2 and I fail my morale, and run 11" off the edge of the table!!! The objective is lost to the Flyrant.

Nothing goes right for me at the end of the game, I fail a single save on my Attack bike and drop that objective as well.

In turn six I only have to move Azrael closer to an objective after destroying the Tervigon, but roll horribly... and fall about an inch short. Surprisingly I've lost almost everything in the closing turns due to some bad rolling... it happens.

I need one more turn to gain two objectives though, and I felt confident I could get slay the warlord now that the Flyrant is on the ground and I have some lascannons....

The game ends before I can find out.

We add it all up and Dark Angels win 14-13. I calculate with one more turn I would have probably won by at least 3 more but snake eyes is my nickname for a reason! :D

It got much closer in the end than it had to be but this is the way all my games go with this list. It's a total and complete blood bath. Oddly enough I have not lost with Az-bomb in seventh (we only play Malestrom now).

I am pooped though and hope to finalize my thoughts now that I feel my testing is over for this style of list. If you've read this far, thank you very much.

[Darkangeldentist]

Great read as usual Prot, interesting to see how your games unfold and what you focus on. The early game advantage Dark angels can gain with lists such as yours seems to be very demoralising to opponents but your report also highlights how tenacity can bring rewards you the Nids almost pulled it back.

 

From the way you wrote up events it sounded like he didn't lose that many of his bigger gribblies such as the flyrant and mawlocs, or any of the monsters which seems odd considering the firepower you brought with you.

 

Considering how much your opponent goes for the black knights it might be worth having Azrael and Ezekiel join them, it's easy enough for them to join up after the first turn. Just having a character in the unit might change his approach. (Since if there are any models left in the template the Mawloc auto-dies, which makes taking on a 4+ invulnerable save unit a really risky idea. I've also found them to be really quite terrifyingly good.

 

I'm a little surprised that you didn't seem to get any psychic powers off during the game, or at least nothing came of them. Where your opponent's dice really hot or did you roll poorly? A little more info on this aspect of the game would be really helpful. (I've written up a summary of my current thoughts about the new psychic phase and Dark angels and I'm keen to hear more from other people.)

 

Thanks again for writing this up and congratulations on another victory.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Thanks for the battel-report. Good read as usual.

I think your worst enemy is yourself, since you give hope to desperate opponents taht are about to throw the game...

This list works only on the base that you are super agreesive and collect so many points and the opponent as to sweat alot to recover.

It's funny about the whirlie because it's dirt cheap and it should get some of his points back.. but he simply refuses to cooperate. Maybe dropping the whirlies and put those points on reinforcing units that earn their keep?

Zeke did nothing offensiveand to do nothing a cheap librarian would do exactly the same... freeing you more points toward more workers.

Please domore DA battle reports. Believe it or not, I find thei rather refreshing and good for morale. :D

[Prot]

Thanks for the battel-report. Good read as usual.

I think your worst enemy is yourself, since you give hope to desperate opponents taht are about to throw the game...

Hahaha! This really made me laugh. I actually always play to win but I hate mowing people down. If things start really tanking for my opponent I always try to help them with what *I* would do and sometimes give them different scenarios. BUT only if they are open to the idea. Some people don't want it, and this guy really knows his Nids but it was more of a "Malestrom" strategy I was giving him.... I know you're joking but that was a pretty funny statement.

This list works only on the base that you are super agreesive and collect so many points and the opponent as to sweat alot to recover.

It's funny about the whirlie because it's dirt cheap and it should get some of his points back.. but he simply refuses to cooperate. Maybe dropping the whirlies and put those points on reinforcing units that earn their keep?

Zeke did nothing offensiveand to do nothing a cheap librarian would do exactly the same... freeing you more points toward more workers.

Please domore DA battle reports. Believe it or not, I find thei rather refreshing and good for morale.

The Whirlwind is such a head scratcher. It fits in the list perfectly. In theory it helps fill the gap I have of expensive units, and removing horde issues. It even has a perfect spot in every game; behind the Bastion.

All that being said, I couldn't hit an Emperor Class Titan with one leg with it. I don't think in my 20 or so games trying it (all games considered), that I've removed more than.... 5 models? I'm starting to think I need 2 minimum to keep it a valid unit.

Zeke came back in at the suggestion of a few forum members and I appreciate everyone's feedback so I wanted to put him back in the main 'bomb-pod'. But yea, he's just not doing it for me.

Thanks a lot for the feedback on the reports. It makes it worth the effort to know someone is getting entertainment out of them. ;)

Great read as usual Prot, interesting to see how your games unfold and what you focus on. The early game advantage Dark angels can gain with lists such as yours seems to be very demoralising to opponents but your report also highlights how tenacity can bring rewards you the Nids almost pulled it back.

From the way you wrote up events it sounded like he didn't lose that many of his bigger gribblies such as the flyrant and mawlocs, or any of the monsters which seems odd considering the firepower you brought with you.

No he did not lose many big monsters at all. I struggled to keep his shooting at bay and minimize the higher end psyker threats. This was a really odd game because I would make the bizzare but truthful observation that: The Nids were shootier than I. The Nids were better at assault than I. But the Dark Angels (Azrael's squad in particular) out lasted the Nids, and became far more survivable.

That's a good observation you had though. When I had free lascannon shooting, it was always at that stupid Flyrant. They're such a huge threat and incredibly hard to ground. Again, he had too many multi-wound, toughness 6 threats. I had to target prioritize.

Considering how much your opponent goes for the black knights it might be worth having Azrael and Ezekiel join them, it's easy enough for them to join up after the first turn. Just having a character in the unit might change his approach. (Since if there are any models left in the template the Mawloc auto-dies, which makes taking on a 4+ invulnerable save unit a really risky idea. I've also found them to be really quite terrifyingly good.

Actually *all* of my opponents go for the Black Knights. It gets really annoying, but I understand it. In my last games I have lost them without really doing much with them. Typically I lose them without getting a shot off to the likes of:

- Helldrakes

- Deathstrike Missiles (I know everyone has heard me moan about this unit enough.)

- Mawlocs (twice in a row now)

- Mega Armoured Nobs (previous game)

- Tau Marker Lights/Plasma

- Imperial Guard Banewolf (AP 3 2+ poison flamer tank)

I've tried playing them passively but this list doesn't allow it. I had seen (I think it was you) join Azrael to a bike squad, but at that moment, I knew there was a chance his Mawlocs MIGHT come in. I didn't dare dream all of his reserves would.

My conundrum was the Vet Squad. If Azrael leaves the vet squad, then I guarantee that squad is gone instead leaving me in perhaps a worse situation. In a previous Nid game, I got one unit on a second floor (couldn't be targeted) and then attached Az to the bikes. I didn't have the luxury this time.

When Mawlocs come in, if they don't kill everything, they get another shot at it. Usually they clean the spot out, or deviate in my experience. We have two players that run them in pairs pretty much every game they play. Then if they still can't make it.... I think that's only happened to me once though.

I'm a little surprised that you didn't seem to get any psychic powers off during the game, or at least nothing came of them. Where your opponent's dice really hot or did you roll poorly? A little more info on this aspect of the game would be really helpful. (I've written up a summary of my current thoughts about the new psychic phase and Dark angels and I'm keen to hear more from other people.)

Thanks again for writing this up and congratulations on another victory.

Okay about the psychic phase.... I try to write the batreps up skipping over dull stuff, or inconsequential stuff but you're right a lot happened there that I probably should not have skimped over.

At the end of the day, I find Nids actually have quite a few opportunities for warp charges and I felt Ezekeil isn't up to the challenge. He did in fact get one Prescience off, but was denied frequently this game. Also perils against Nids is nasty. (Shadow in the Warp)

90% of Ezekeil's role in this game was trying to block Warp Blasts against my Az-bomb unit AND block the non-stop casting of 2 sets of Feel No Pain on 4 units every turn. (This made the Tervigon, Mawlocs, and Flyrant nearly unstoppable).

Thank you very much for reading the batreps!

I wanted to get this part out of my head before I forget it like everything else..... and do the unit review for this game:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Az-Bomb Unit Review:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+ Azrael: Still the king. The list revolves around him not only as a unit but a force multiplier. The more aggressive I play him, the more he shines. The Warlord trait to hold the objective for Feel No Pain is an obvious choice for me and it just makes the squad an amazing tarpit that can hit back.

The only variable for me here is what to put with him. Vets are great, but they aren't super scoring. At some point I have to destroy the troops around me, or I can't contest the objective I sit him on. So I've played it both ways now. Both work really well. Azrael gets a A from me in this list type. (A+ if he was a little better in CC against Termies/2+ armour, etc.)

+ Ezekeil: I've wanted to use Mind Worm many times but with only 3 +D6 Warp Charges, Divination takes precedence. (I think I only actually got it off once). The Psychic phase in 7th is really a different ball of wax. You have to priortize what you really want to get off, and focus your dice on it.... Mind Worm just doesn't fit that category for me especially considering the focused witchfire part of it.

I have found in 7th if you're not building a list towards the psychic phase, you're probably not going to accomplish too much. I've gone against players really utilizing it and Ezekeil doesn't get too much off in those situations.

Psychic phase aside, his 2+ save is nice, and he has some close combat ability but I have to be honest here; as much as I love him he's probably a C rating in this list at his points cost I could see getting more effectiveness out of 2 Whirlwinds for him.

+ Dreadnought: In a pod. Vet status, vanilla, melta, plasma, I can't seem to get anything out of this guy. I think in... 5 + games he's killed a total of 10 gaunts, 5 guardsmen? A lot of missed melta shots. So far I gotta give him a D and he's probably close to getting cut.

+ Black Knights: How I love these guys. Such a high priority though. Still in all the games with them I still give them an A-.

+ Whirlwind: 2 or nothing. F-

+ Terminators: Deathwing B. Deathwing Knights C. Normal termies are super scoring and still have shooting and the ability to hammer something to death. The Knight variant is still potent, but not super scoring and sometimes you need that double strength. I really could have used the Termies this game but opted for more bodies instead. I have to find a way to get them back in.

+ Tacticals in a Pod: Cheap and super scoring with super scoring pods. The DA tacticals are not the best troop in the game, nor the best Tactical Marines but they still hold their own quite efficiently in 7th and in this list specifically. B

+ Bikes: In this list they're used quite different from my Ravenwing. I give them a B- because of how I use them. I can't be aggressive with them. They always (offensively) support Azrael's squad. Defensively they disperse and Jink like crazy, turboing around grabbing and denying as many objectives as possible.

+ Devs: + Bastion: +Quad Gun: The package is a B-. Individually none of these units work for me. But together they fit well and with 7th having you put the Bastion down during deployment ensures it will be in the game. The top of the Bastion fits the 7 man Dev squad with 4 lascannons nicely and gives them great field of view. It is multi-roled; anti-flyer, anti-tank, objective grabber (late game). But is it efficient? That's the question. Can you do this cheaper with a flyer? With melta in additional bike squads? C+

+ Typhoon Speeder: This might come back in the list. As a super scoring unit, it might come back. Right now I'm using Multi Melta bikes in this role, however, I find with the short range of the Multimelta Attack Bike, I usually sit it on an objective in my zone and it is out of range to fire the MM. Typhoon might be better here? C+

That's it for my unit analysis for now. Of course it's all subject to change. ;)

[FerociousBeast]

Psychic phase aside, his 2+ save is nice, and he has some close combat ability but I have to be honest here; as much as I love him he's probably a C rating in this list at his points cost I could see getting more effectiveness out of 2 Whirlwinds for him.

 

 

You are playing Ezekiel's +1 WS for the squad, right? That's one of his best abilities and that along w/ his artificer armor and ML3 are what really put him over the top in comparison to other librarians.

[Darkangeldentist]

Prot, I find it mildly ironic that you suggest swapping Ezekiel for a couple of whirlwinds when all of your battle reports have described them as almost irrelevent. They ought to work on paper but have yet to do so and your grade for them was F-!

FerociousBeast makes a couple of good questions and I have to admit some befuddlement as to how you are find him lacking. Librarians do not function as they did in the last edition and it requires a different approach to get the most of them now. (Some out there are trying spamming but we can't do that so we need to go about the psychic phase differently.) I think you really ought to give some of the other disciplines a go. Warp charge 2 powers are draining and when you've only the one psyker it'll frequently dominate your plans for the phase. Cheap powers can make things much more interesting and the key is not hang your plans around any one power getting through. This conversation perhaps belongs in a different thread though.

I very much enjoyed the unit review and thanks for taking the time. Since your regular opponents are now used to seeing your black knights and prioritise them so much it might be worth putting the in reserve to ouflank. Especially in some missions it can be devastating to have such a unit arrive from an unprotected flank and you haven't invested so many points in them that it hurts that much to wait until turn 2 for them...maybe if the dice are mean and they don't arrive till turn 4 it'll be a problem but generally their plasma talons will wreak havoc amongst anything within range. Depends a lot on the situation though.

[Prot]

Psychic phase aside, his 2+ save is nice, and he has some close combat ability but I have to be honest here; as much as I love him he's probably a C rating in this list at his points cost I could see getting more effectiveness out of 2 Whirlwinds for him.

You are playing Ezekiel's +1 WS for the squad, right? That's one of his best abilities and that along w/ his artificer armor and ML3 are what really put him over the top in comparison to other librarians.

I'm not even gonna lie. I have forgot it every game. Even last game when I reminded myself of his rules... by game time I totally forgot. Honestly I think the only thing that was willing to go hand to hand with me was a Tervigon which I believe is WS3. But yes, good catch. Maybe I'll even remember one day. lol

Prot, I find it mildly ironic that you suggest swapping Ezekiel for a couple of whirlwinds when all of your battle reports have described them as almost irrelevent. They ought to work on paper but have yet to do so and your grade for them was F-!

I have never used two of the Whirlwinds. I just know after all this experimenting one seems a total waste.... To be honest, I will probably never actually swap Ezekeil for 2 WW's.

FerociousBeast makes a couple of good questions and I have to admit some befuddlement as to how you are find him lacking. Librarians do not function as they did in the last edition and it requires a different approach to get the most of them now. (Some out there are trying spamming but we can't do that so we need to go about the psychic phase differently.) I think you really ought to give some of the other disciplines a go. Warp charge 2 powers are draining and when you've only the one psyker it'll frequently dominate your plans for the phase. Cheap powers can make things much more interesting and the key is not hang your plans around any one power getting through. This conversation perhaps belongs in a different thread though.

You could be right. That's why I post this stuff to get some suggestions like this.

I'm not entirely confident in him. It's not that I hate him, I just constantly judge my lists based on ROI. I find the investment for him steep for his return. Granted, I haven't been using the +1 Ws, but how big is it?

I'm not quite pulling the plug on him yet. As you suggest I'll probably try Sanctity or something else. I just always tried Divination because it is kind of unique to us. But perhaps it's time to try him with something that truly assists (force multiplier) Azrael's bomb squad.

I very much enjoyed the unit review and thanks for taking the time. Since your regular opponents are now used to seeing your black knights and prioritise them so much it might be worth putting the in reserve to ouflank. Especially in some missions it can be devastating to have such a unit arrive from an unprotected flank and you haven't invested so many points in them that it hurts that much to wait until turn 2 for them...maybe if the dice are mean and they don't arrive till turn 4 it'll be a problem but generally their plasma talons will wreak havoc amongst anything within range. Depends a lot on the situation though.

Hmmm this is tough. The whole thrust of my list is to be -extremely- aggressive in the first few turns. Since typical reserves cannot come in the first turn I find starting them on the table at least gives me one full turn of my turbo n' terror tactics (I've admittedly been VERY unlucky).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So far things I'm really glad I did:

- Pulled Deathwing Knights for Black Knights

- Added the Bastion. It gets a bit bashed on the forum, but I gotta be honest, it feels like better Anti-air for the buck than the Nephilim.

- Bastion part 2: It also allows the inclusion of Devastators which is a really nice change for me even if it is not quite paying off yet.

- Thunderhammer/Shield x 2 termies w/ Plasma cannon and storm bolters. At 5 men this squad is super scoring and makes even more sense of using Azrael.

- Azrael with Vets. I don't know how I can convince myself to go back to Tacticals with him. Seriously, the vets extra attack and even the combo of Fist + Axe in that squad has been quite potent combined with....

- Azrael's picking his Warlord Trait: Sitting on an Objective for FnP. I doubt I'll ever change that again in this list.

Things I want to change:

- Pullling back on tacticals? Did I go too far? Using 7 bonus tacticals to sit in the second level of the Bastion to fire one Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon, and then run out the door in the end game to sit on an objective? Not sure about this.

- Dreadnought. He's on the way out. Which really sucks because I just bought a brand new Ven dread kit which I've never done up because til now all my dreads have been Chaos. lol

- Whirlwind. It's as destructive as 'Breaking-wind'. A few seconds of bad smell is all I get out of this unit!

- Termies (deathwing as described above) have to come back. It doesn't always happen but this was a game where indeed I needed a little more heavy hitters to save my Eastern flank which was demolished by 2 Mawlocs and a flying thing that looked like flying genitalia. (Sorry can't remember the name of it.)

come to think of it the Termies in my last game held the Killa Kans off of Az-zeke bomb as it dealt with orks and then they went to their death fighting Mega armoured nobs. All to maximize Az-Zeke bomb's efforts.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In closing ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thank you very much for following my experiment. My goal was to prove to myself that this list was competitive in Malestrom and now that I think of it, I never lost with it in 5+ games. (I think I reported on 3 of the games.)

But in doing so I have neglected my other armies, Necrons, Chaos (Crimson Slaughter/Iron Warriors) Yes, boo! Hiss...Chaos- boo! lol

So I was at a point where I was sick of Proxying all the stuff I don't have. So I have to consider buying this stuff to flesh it out or moving on. Plus drop pods have to be the most frustrating models I've put together in a long time!!! I have two that fell apart. One that the doors never shut right on so I had to rip it apart.... and another one in a box that I'm just about ready to pay a Chinese WOW gold farming company to put together for me!

(seriously anyone have as many issues with pods as me?)

I'd have to buy the vets, and probably stick with the DV versions of HQs for Az and Ez. (Cool enough models that are WYSIWYG), but also buying the devs... and more tacticals.

If I decide to do it maybe I'll revisit this and start a thread on it.

I really appreciate all the advice and comments guys. I mean it.... it's been great to bounce some ideas off of you and the feedback has helped me learn the list and improve it every week. Thank you.

[Mc_luhvin]

When Ezekiel was getting sniped with templates was he still receiving the 4++ invul from azraels lion helm?

 

And on a side note, I personally find 2 whirlwinds work a treat for me, once took out a whole Unit of 20 cultists and a chaos lord In on turn, for a total of 23 wounds! It was a great day

[Aegnor]

My solo Whirlwind seldom achieves anything of note. Weird that I always roll lots of HIT results with my Thunderfire Cannons with my Salamanders, and none ever with my Whirlwind.

[Tanhausen]

Very interesting exercise you did there Prot :)

 

Just gonna comment on the Whirlwind.

 

I played it at (almost) all my tournament games last year and it shone like a dying star!

 

Not only did it distract attention (usually behind some BLOS ruin or similar in a corner) but consistenly conditioned both the deployment and advance of my opponent.

 

LS hated it

 

Guards and small bugs did the same.

 

And its not so much about the killing. Usually catching 3-4 models which these kind of units don't mind that much...until they fail morale tests. Specially non-visible targets, usually sitting on their base and what not.

 

But I'll throw the "your local meta" caveat there because it can certainly affect performance ;)

[Prot]

When Ezekiel was getting sniped with templates was he still receiving the 4++ invul from azraels lion helm?

And on a side note, I personally find 2 whirlwinds work a treat for me, once took out a whole Unit of 20 cultists and a chaos lord In on turn, for a total of 23 wounds! It was a great day

I bet 2 would be a great number... I mean it's still only... 130 points which is less than a Vengeance Speeder and will probably kill more throughout a game.

Plus hordes are an issue with this list.

My solo Whirlwind seldom achieves anything of note. Weird that I always roll lots of HIT results with my Thunderfire Cannons with my Salamanders, and none ever with my Whirlwind.

Agreed!

Very interesting exercise you did there Prot

Just gonna comment on the Whirlwind.

I played it at (almost) all my tournament games last year and it shone like a dying star!

Not only did it distract attention (usually behind some BLOS ruin or similar in a corner) but consistenly conditioned both the deployment and advance of my opponent.

LS hated it

Guards and small bugs did the same.

And its not so much about the killing. Usually catching 3-4 models which these kind of units don't mind that much...until they fail morale tests. Specially non-visible targets, usually sitting on their base and what not.

But I'll throw the "your local meta" caveat there because it can certainly affect performance

I see the Whirlwind, as small a factor as it has been, is getting a lot of comments...

At this point I need to find a way to get Termies in...

Darn this list is addictive! How far can I go? How much stronger can I make it without breaking it?

I've been quite happy with my Ravenwing but since the new jink, it forced me to try something I never thought would work and here I am.... really enjoying it so far.

[Tanhausen]

TBH, I skimmed over quite a bit...the WW drew my attention.

 

What is the list you're currently working on?

 

Chek out the list I posted in the army forum, maybe it'll give you ideas :) (didn't say good or bad hehe)

[Prot]

Thanks for looking in here... I checked out your list and it's about 10 miles apart from what I'm doing here, and we don't actually use Gods of War typically here. But I do want to start a Knight up for fun but not if it causes a ton of imbalance.... I mean eldar bringing them out is nasty so I don't want to tempt that!

 

The list I'm working on now is nothing more than tweaks. I feel after so many games that I have a very good feel for the army and the only thing I really felt was I needed to rid myself of some dead weight units, and get Termies back in.

 

I know people are fans of the Deathwing Knights but I have to disagree with those that don't merit the super scoring ability of DWT over Knights. It's literally stolen games for me. I'm trying to work them back in probably at the price of the Dread, Pod, WW, and some tacticals.

[FerociousBeast]

That is a steep price...

[Prot]

That is a steep price...

 

Yea it does sound like it doesn't it?

 

I just can't kill anything with two units: The whirlwind, and the Dread... in close combat nor shooting.

 

I think the trade off was: 2 tacticals (reducing one squad that sits in the Bastion to 5 models with Plasma Canon), Pod, Dread, WW for:

5 termies, one hammer/shield, one plasma cannon.

 

Also I had a few points left so I swapped the Attack Bike for a Typhoon missile launcher speeder which I definitely feel is a trade up because I found my attack bike hides (but usually gets shot up) on a home field objective but can't shoot much in return.

 

Maybe I should just let a shooty dread sit on something in my backfield? (as you can see I would like to keep the dread but struggle to justify it with my last 3 dread games going... dreadful. :) )

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If you trade Zeke and the pod+dread, you have enough to put in the termies, keep the attack bike and if my math is right, add the LS (or close enough).

[Tanhausen]

The list I tested does not include the Imperial Knight, that was just the initial musings...

 

Can you post your full list, the one you're currently considering? Easier (for me at least) to see the whole picture :)

[Prot]

The list I tested does not include the Imperial Knight, that was just the initial musings...

Can you post your full list, the one you're currently considering? Easier (for me at least) to see the whole picture

That would be in the first post.

I've been tweaking this list for a while now and it has previous versions posted in the army list forum, however what I'm basing this off right now is in the first post.

If you trade Zeke and the pod+dread, you have enough to put in the termies, keep the attack bike and if my math is right, add the LS (or close enough).

Yea, I'm stumped right now.

I want to keep the dread. Ezekeil is a great model and I keep forgetting to use his WS boost.... Maybe I drop the termie idea?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

So lets try a comparison.

 

Zeke+dread and pod

3 models. 3 scoring units. 2 with AV12 one with 2+ save.

You get 1 Plasma cannon shot per turn, 4 SB shots, psykers powers, psyker defense, vet WS boost

 

Termies with PC, Speeder

6 models, 2 Super scoring units. 1 with AV10, 5 with 2+/5++ save

1 PC shot, 2 ML shots, 3 HB shots, 8 SB shots.

 

You clearly win in firepower on the second option and you have super scoring units but you lose the ability to drop in the dread on a focal point and the chance for psyker boost and making your death star more deadly.

Against hordes the second option might fare better but it's not a given.

[Tanhausen]

Here's my suggested list:

 

Azrael - 200ish

Ezekiel - ?? (gonna guess some 180)

2 x 5 terminators (1 heavy weapon, a couple of hammers per squad) - 500

1 x 10 tacticals w/ special weapon in pod - 180

1 x 5 tacticals w/ special weapon in a pod - 105

2 x 3 bikes w/ double special - 200 (these I would outflank for objective grabbing and tank hunting)

1 x 5 RWBK, 1 RWGL - 210

1 x Bastion w/ quad gun - 100

1 x 10 devastators w/ 4 lascannon - 225

 

Roughly 1850 (can always take bodies away from the devs)

 

highlights:

 

- 8 (potentially 10) super scoring units

- Can combat squad devs, so 1 can be on top of the bastion and the other using the second floor (for example), giving increased flexibility

- combines nicely the hitting power of a couple of terminator units with the highly mobile 3x bike units and a couple of pods

 

What do you think of it? :)

 

[Prot]

So lets try a comparison.

Zeke+dread and pod

3 models. 3 scoring units. 2 with AV12 one with 2+ save.

You get 1 Plasma cannon shot per turn, 4 SB shots, psykers powers, psyker defense, vet WS boost

Termies with PC, Speeder

6 models, 2 Super scoring units. 1 with AV10, 5 with 2+/5++ save

1 PC shot, 2 ML shots, 3 HB shots, 8 SB shots.

You clearly win in firepower on the second option and you have super scoring units but you lose the ability to drop in the dread on a focal point and the chance for psyker boost and making your death star more deadly.

Against hordes the second option might fare better but it's not a given.

When you lay it out like that, the second option seems a lot better to me. However I was trying to keep Ezekeil in the list, but may just remove him altogether. Thanks for the suggestion.

Here's my suggested list:

Azrael - 200ish

Ezekiel - ?? (gonna guess some 180)

2 x 5 terminators (1 heavy weapon, a couple of hammers per squad) - 500

1 x 10 tacticals w/ special weapon in pod - 180

1 x 5 tacticals w/ special weapon in a pod - 105

2 x 3 bikes w/ double special - 200 (these I would outflank for objective grabbing and tank hunting)

1 x 5 RWBK, 1 RWGL - 210

1 x Bastion w/ quad gun - 100

1 x 10 devastators w/ 4 lascannon - 225

Roughly 1850 (can always take bodies away from the devs)

highlights:

- 8 (potentially 10) super scoring units

- Can combat squad devs, so 1 can be on top of the bastion and the other using the second floor (for example), giving increased flexibility

- combines nicely the hitting power of a couple of terminator units with the highly mobile 3x bike units and a couple of pods

What do you think of it?

I think overall the list is very good... The biggest issue I have with it is that the experiment I'm doing here has Azrael (+half the time Ezekeil as well) being joined by 8-9 Vets in a pod.

Azrael always chooses the warlord trait to give me FNP for the squad so they always drop on an objective. I've found this incredibly aggressive, yet resilient. In fact it's shocked me how well it's been working (the squad is static, however it cannot be ignored in Malestrom which is all we've been playing since 7th came out.)

Originally to keep it cheap Azrael and Ezekeil came in the pod with 8 tacticals to keep the pod and tacticals super scoring with the HQ. However, I experimented with Vets and found they had the offensive ability to crush almost...almost anything.

Otherwise I really like the list.....

Just a small note. Orignally I did do 10 Devs with 4 lascannons and moved 5 of them to the second floor, but that means I only had one guy to man the quad and then I was losing lascannon figs to wounds. Right now I'm taking 6 devs up top (2 ablative wounds for the lascannons), and 5 tacticals w/Plasma Cannon fire out the window on the second floor while manning the heavy bolters.

I do like the list though...Just not sure how Az and Ez would fit into it?

[Tanhausen]

10 devs, combat squad 4+1 and 2+3 (lascanons), that way you have a LC safely on the second floor and you have 2 ablative wounds on top... at least thats the idea on paper.

 

As for Azzy+Zeke...what do 8 veterans do that you can't do with 5 tacticals with a melta? at CC you're losing 11 attacks (yeah, it hurts) and 3 wounds...but you were probably gonna tank them anyway with the 2 characters, so I wouldn't consider that the biggest issue.

 

Dunno, just musing and thinking out loud :)

[Gillyfish]

A nice read as ever Prot - seeing your experiments is making me want to get a game in again - a feeling I haven't had for a while. It's certainly interesting seeing how you're developing the list. It will probably need some further tinkering with until it feels comfortable. The main weakness I can see is that a sensible opponent ought to concentrate on killing everything except the shielded killer unit in order to try and deny you objectives. In that context one terminator squad for longevity and some basic Ravenwing for grabbing last minute objectives might well be essential, but will need to be bulked out/backed up by tacticals or scouts to spread out and take objectives or generally make a nuisance of themselves.

 

Hard to do of course.

[Prot]

10 devs, combat squad 4+1 and 2+3 (lascanons), that way you have a LC safely on the second floor and you have 2 ablative wounds on top... at least thats the idea on paper.

As for Azzy+Zeke...what do 8 veterans do that you can't do with 5 tacticals with a melta? at CC you're losing 11 attacks (yeah, it hurts) and 3 wounds...but you were probably gonna tank them anyway with the 2 characters, so I wouldn't consider that the biggest issue.

Dunno, just musing and thinking out loud

Tanhausen,

I really appreciate the thoughts. Trust me I've been trying a lot of things in these batreps. As things go on, the list gets tighter and tighter. In fact I do think I'm going to incorporate the 10 Man Dev squad and split it in the Bastion.... dividing the lascannons a bit.

On the Vets: If I ACTUALLY REMEMBER to use the +1 WS (Zeke) and 4++ (Az), combined with the 2 invisible specials, Axe + Fist, with +1 attack this squad goes from being a super tactical squad to a 'Tarpit from the bowels of Caliban!'

Don't get me wrong the tacticals certainly work great and super scoring squad + pod is VERY good. But at 1850 I found using Vets gives me a really non-traditional deathstar that people really don't know how to handle. There is no wrong answer here. Both work and I will probably continue to juggle this piece as it has pretty much become a wildcard. (Let it be known we are talking about a difference of about 40 points?)

Love the idea you have though in some cases I admit I really like a model that I'm trying to make work (the Dread is a perfect example of that... it does nothing.)

A nice read as ever Prot - seeing your experiments is making me want to get a game in again - a feeling I haven't had for a while. It's certainly interesting seeing how you're developing the list. It will probably need some further tinkering with until it feels comfortable. The main weakness I can see is that a sensible opponent ought to concentrate on killing everything except the shielded killer unit in order to try and deny you objectives. In that context one terminator squad for longevity and some basic Ravenwing for grabbing last minute objectives might well be essential, but will need to be bulked out/backed up by tacticals or scouts to spread out and take objectives or generally make a nuisance of themselves.

Hard to do of course.

Gilly,

That is a very good observation but I typically position the Az-Zeke Bomb in such a way that 1: it is stealing points from you, 2: it is right in your way, probably disrupting your safe and comfy fire base.

Reason #2 is probably the main thing that gets people after it. But your observation does make for an interesting scenario because none of my opponents has caught on to that.... but if you had a fast army and didn't intend on really protecting anything on your side, perhaps it would be in my best interest to sit in my own zone with Az-zeke bomb. Good point to ponder though....

Play the game Gilly. I think Malestrom makes armies like ours MUCH more valid. And if you feel comfortable with what a unit does/can't do, it fits very well into Malestrom. No more pigeon holing into lists that only have 3 effective units and the rest is there for 'fun'. The pieces fit together much better now... it's up to you to make it work. Malesrtom tests your tactical prowess far more than beating each up in a corner ever did (in my opinion).

In all honesty? I am SMOKING armies that in 6th took WAC lists that sat in a corner with repetitive lists. Most of those lists hate moving. Many of them don't want to think, never mind over take objectives. IMHO this is the funnest iteration of 40K I've played since I started 15 years ago.

Dark Angels' somewhat mediocre ability to turn some units into troops was not truly deemed that potent in 6th. 7th is a whole new ball game. Pick up some dice and give it a shot.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am not going to start at a new army list post out of this:

I gotta say not much will change at this point. Just the obvious duds, and a remark from Tanhausen has me thinking about alternate ways to get Termies in the list without removing Ezekeil.

So Ezekeil stays, BUT he is on a short leash. +1 Ws is nice, but I'm finding in 7th you either bring a psychic strategy to the table, or you're just there to witness your opponent firing off a ton of crap in the Psychic phase and Ezekeil (or any list with one psyker) becomes a 'defense mechanism". Which isn't horrible, but expensive in this case.

Ezekeil is on a short leash.

1850 Pts:

Az'Zeke Bomb:

Azrael 215

Ezekeil 145

Vets 8 plus Pod (fist, axe, melta) (229pts) (Added DW Missile Launchers on pods 244 Pts)

Troops: 10 tacticals, Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Pod (180 Pts) (Added DW Missile Launchers on Pod 210) (Not sure if I should Combat Squad these? Or just use them for Az-Zeke bomb support as per usual (Maybe without Dread support I should just stick to support.)

Troops: DW Terminators 5: 2 hammer/shields, Plasma Cannon (245) (my favorite config so far, and beats out Deathwing Knights for being super scoring.)

Troops: RW Attack Squadron 7: 2 meltabikes, 4 normal bikes, 1 Attack bike w/MM (236)

Fast attack:

Ravenwing Black Knights x 5: 1 Rad Grenade. (210)

Heavy Support: (220)

Devastators x 10: 4 Lascannons (goes in Bastion). 4+1 Lascannon on second floor manning a Heavy Bolter, 2 + 3 Lascannons on top manning Quad.

Bastion w/Quad: (125) (placed right beside an objective if not in front of with door facing backwards typically ideal.

Tonight I could face anything... no idea who my opponent is. Wish me luck.

[Cactus]

Good luck Prot!

 

I'm really enjoying reading the results of your experiments, and the responses.