What Defines the Dark Angels? And Where Are We Now?

[Prot]

For me, some things come to mind when I think of certain chapters.

 

The Iron Hands for instance seem to be defined (to me) by the tragedy of Istvaan. (what a way to lose your Primarch) And now I see them as always recovering from that.

 

Imp Fists I see as 'Sentinels of Terra' and creating quite a legacy with the Templars, and Crimson Fists.

 

What about Dark Angels? 

 

It's almost like a two part question because I ponder life with Lionel and without. When he was around it is said the Dark Angels contributed, or accomplished as much as any other legion or more. So this defines our Horus Heresy era? Or is it over shadowed by half the Legion taking to Chaos and the trusted Luthor betrayal?

 

What about now? 

 

Part of why I stopped reading Gav Thorpe's Ravenwing (man I wanted to love that since it is my primary DA force) is because it seemed so formulaic.... we find a chapter keep where it appears heretic Dark Angels have run amok.... 

 

Is this what we do now? Are we defined by the hunt for 'the fallen' or any fallen? Not that it would be horrid to admit, but pushing back Tau borders, or re-defining the Imperium would be nice. 

 

I read the Red Corsairs codex and was somewhat disappointed by the Dark Angels role in it. The Crimson Slaughter seem to know about 'the secret' and whenever the Dark Angels get a grip on the Crimson Slaughter, they slip away.... pillaging Dark Angel chapter keeps.

 

What do you guys think? Does the heresy define us? Are we "Chaos Cops"? What accomplishments really define the chapter? What about the future of the chapter?

[Komrk]

I think that at least from my outside perspective, the Hunt for the Fallen is what makes the Dark Angels unique and... the Dark Angels. For Raven Guard I don't know what makes us, us. Is it the guilt from the monsters we created trying to rebuild our legions? Most likely, as is our way, we've faded and we're not one of the big chapters, like Scars and Hands before they got amazing with the newest C:SM.

Basically, the Hunt for the Fallen makes the Dark Angels who they are.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, Hunt for the Fallen is not all that the Dark Angels are. They're also one of the pre-emeninent lineages of the Adept us Astartes, in terms of success and sacrifice in the name of the Imperium.

 

BUT it is the Hunt for the Fallen that defines what it means to be a Dark Angel amongst the Emperor's Angels of Death, as opposed to an Ultramarine, Imperial Fist, etc. It is our major point of difference.

 

That said, 80% of the Chapter has no idea about the Heresy, let alone the secrets regarding Luther and the Fallen. Books like the Purging of Kallista show a much more typical DA deployment: battling and defeating invading xenos. Ravenwing are a little different in that their primary reason for existing is to hunt down members of the Fallen.

[Retaliation]

Yeah, Hunt for the Fallen is not all that the Dark Angels are. They're also one of the pre-emeninent lineages of the Adept us Astartes, in terms of success and sacrifice in the name of the Imperium.

BUT it is the Hunt for the Fallen that defines what it means to be a Dark Angel amongst the Emperor's Angels of Death, as opposed to an Ultramarine, Imperial Fist, etc. It is our major point of difference.

That said, 80% of the Chapter has no idea about the Heresy, let alone the secrets regarding Luther and the Fallen. Books like the Purging of Kallista show a much more typical DA deployment: battling and defeating invading xenos. Ravenwing are a little different in that their primary reason for existing is to hunt down members of the Fallen.

How much the chapter knows of the heresy is more of a headcanon thing I feel. Gav seems to subscribe to older canon where even marines are ignorant of the heresy and chaos. It's kind of out of touch with how things are portrayed now, but to each their own.

But yeah there is more to the Dark Angels. Those outside the Inner Circle see incredibly aloof and callous marines, kind of like the Marines Malevolent. Unlike the Marines Malevolent though, they're not so caught up in themselves they see everyone as below them. They're perfectly willing to accept high ranking imperial officals and other chapters as equals. Likewise Dark Angels are generally motivated enough to devise ways that don't involve massive whirlwind bombardment of civilian and ork filled refugee camps. The camp's going to be ruined, but at least there are less civilians killed.

For the Inner Circle though, there's really nothing beyond the hunt. In addition because the Inner Circle is the command elements of the Dark Angels, everything the DA do is ultimately about the hunt. Assisting Imperial forces, defending Imperial worlds, and doing general space marine chapter things are all about sustaining the Dark Angels existence so they can continue the hunt and hiding it.

Honestly the Unforgiven is an association of emotionally broken chapters that only wills itself to survive through sheer stubborness and hope for eventual redemption. Coincidentally probably the only things keeping Luther alive .

[Azoriel]

But I do think the hunt defines the Dark Angels for who they are though; even those members who have no knowledge of it at all are so shaped, as they receive hints and parables of the Fall from their elders as they increase in rank.

 

It's not that they don't do other things, as the Dark Angels do plenty for the Imperium; the shame of the past merely helps shapes them.  It would be equally untrue to say that the Red Thirst means the Blood Angels can't have any noteworthy accomplishments in fighting the enemies of Mankind, or Codex Astartes means the Ultramarines can't be any good at actual fighting.
 

For the Inner Circle though, there's really nothing beyond the hunt. In addition because the Inner Circle is the command elements of the Dark Angels, everything the DA do is ultimately about the hunt. Assisting Imperial forces, defending Imperial worlds, and doing general space marine chapter things are all about sustaining the Dark Angels existence so they can continue the hunt and hiding it.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with Retaliation here: by and large, the Inner Circle does very much care about things beyond the hunt.  Or, at the very least, Sapphon, Azrael, Belial, and Sammael care per Gav Thorpe's novels.  Heck, Boreas cared too - even in the height of Fallen-on-the-brain induced madness, he was willing to put aside the hunt to protect civilians on his planet from harm (even if said protection would only be Pyrrhic in nature).  Those IC members who care only for the hunt to the exclusion of all other things (Asmodai) are the exception rather than the rule.

[Retaliation]

Bah, that's not nearly grim dark enough for my tastes !

[Captain Semper]

What defines the Dark Angels is their dark secret. This is manifested with the hunt of the Fallen, their cladenstine nature, their internal organization (including rituals titles and ranks) and their interaction with the rest of the Imperium.

The fact that they are trying to balance their duty to the Imperium and the Hunt of the Fallen - but whenever there is a conflict of interest, the Hunt takes precedence - speaks for itself. That means that unlike other loyalist marines, the DAs have a weakness, something to prevent them from being exemplary. In this sense the 40k DAs have fallen - they have a limitation of how loyal they can be.

On the other hand, one may go a step further and say that the DAs are not loyal to the Imperium per se but to the Emperor personally (who's also in the know). As such, they percieve that the greatest service they can offer the Emperor is to hunt the Fallen and expunge the shame. The Imperium is a reality which they recognise and support - but is not the top priority. Top priority is the Hunt.

In truth, no other loyal Legion suffered such a transformation as a result of the Heresy. All other First Founding Chapters and their Primogenitors totally accepted their new roles (even grudgingly). The only other Chapter that has a dark secret, the BAs is not a sectret of choice but a secret of biology - for which they can do little about. In fact you can even feel a little moved by the the BA predicament - it's not their fault after all. But the DAs made a conscious decision to keep a secret agenda - they live this kind of life by choice! And that makes all the difference in the world.

In my view, there is no objective way by which the DAs are a likeable bunch. They live in shadows, they use abduction, violence and torture as a standard course of action and they do something the SM usually don't: they take prisoners! And all that, not because of some higher ideal, but for a very selfish reason - the salvation of their Chapter. Their spiritual leaders are called Interrogator (underlining what is the most important spiritual virtue for the DAs) and they carry stuff like the Blades of Reason. I recall in the 2nd ed. Codex that was shared with the BAs, the text that was there to give the feel of the Chapter it was describing a ferocious battle for the BAs and a torture scene for the DAs! That says a lot. Yes, the 40k DAs are tragic: They have fallen from grace but they are doomed to hunt the Fallen for eternity.

From an in-Universe perspective the only way to justify the DAs actions is to totally endorse their view point - effectively to become a Dark Angel yourself!

THE CHAPTER IS ALL THAT MATTERS!

[Master Sheol]

I think that Semper pretty nailed it...

According to the expanded fluff of the last DA codex and the Cypher dataslate we can see what happened...

After the Fall of Caliban the DA thought that all the Fallen but Luther died and without the Lion protecting them the Legion high ranks (I like to think that Corswain took the lead of the Legion) decided to keep secret the Fallen to prevent them from being considered traitors too... And this is the reason why the Angels of Absolution think their sins already absolved (they purged Caliban from treachery and Chaos and the Hunt for the fallen is only to give retribution to the traitors and not to redeem the Legion)...

This was the first step to the secret... If the Fallen were all really dead the DA probably would act like any other Chapter in 41st millenium...

But soon the fallen started to emerge from the Warp and DA librarians found it... DA decided then that the only way to purge the honour of the Chapter was to capture all the fallen and judge them...

DA as any other legion felt that the only being higher than them in the Galaxy was the Emperor and with Lion disappeared and the Emperor entombed in the Golden Throne no other being was able to give them orders and they decided to keep,on their secret agenda... Thus tying their hands by themselves cause now they are doomed to repent themselves or fail...

Curious enough was the repainting of the armours to green... In Cypher's dataslate it's stated that Cypher leaded the loyalists on Caliban and they repainted their armour green... Even if it's not stated we can assume that the Loyalists DA repainted their armours green too following their example (an interesting similarity to the Deathwing story about the bone painted Terminators armours)...

So why Cypher choose to play the Fallen role while he is clearly a loyalist?

Probably his choice is a part of the same tragic destiny of the DA even different...

He probably knew that the Fallen were not dead and realized that keeping the secret agenda was a mistake so he choose (by himself or by Jonson's order?) to act like a Fallen to help DA to reedem themselves?

[Bryan Blaire]

Cypher might be playing one of the most dangerous undercover games in fictional history.

 

The Hunt does definitely define a great majority of all activity for the Dark Angels and all of the Unforgiven (although different Unforgiven chapters seem to have different focuses in the Hunt).

[Master Sheol]

Cypher might be playing one of the most dangerous undercover games in fictional history.

 

The Hunt does definitely define a great majority of all activity for the Dark Angels and all of the Unforgiven (although different Unforgiven chapters seem to have different focuses in the Hunt).

The Hunt is what is keeping the Unforgiven a Legion (even if in disguise) while all other ones but Wolves are disbanded into Chapters...

And yes i think that Cypher is a loyalist in disguise an agent of the Lion undercover...

In the end the DA fluff is "circle within circle, secret within secret" and Cypher could be just another level of secret in the history of the First Legion...

[Space Truckin]

No doubt the hunt for the fallen is unique and set's us apart from other chapters but - and please tell me if I'm reading into this wrong -  I think the OP was more on about is this the ONLY thing that defines Dark Angels as a chapter these days.

 

Does the Hunt for the Fallen have to be written into almost every post HH Dark Angel story or novel?

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

What defines the Unforgiven for me is the amount of intrigue and secrecy shrouding the legion. Yes I'm saying legion, because for me, they're exactly that. They are viewed with suspicion and didn't have many successor chapters for this very reason, but all these chapters work together if needs must. 

Furthermore, they are the first and finest. They are, despite the tragedy in their background one of the most successful and zealous faction of the Adeptus Astartes, constantly and stubbornly proving that they will not be weakened by their history.

 

The hunt for the Fallen comes in far behind these reasons. Personally, I'm bored of fiction depicting this. I like stories like Deathwing better, in general. Stories that show them as heroic and loyal servants of the Imperium, not these shifty dudes in dark robes.

 

And that's, ultimately, their draw for me.

 

Also: Pretty, pretty green.

[FerociousBeast]

*cough* https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gIF4rgnLXW3cE1vt2J05aQRFkFNIWeUkddnyjfp5ojg/edit?usp=sharing&authkey=CJ617qQG *cough* *cough* https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rT-dXerhRzSf4E5J8eYGtydhCQLgDL-fTVQtyJS_cjI/edit?usp=sharing&authkey=CN-2odoB *cough*

 

Whew, sorry guys, something caught in my throat...

[Phoebus]

Are Dark Angels always chasing the Fallen?  If their fiction and their Codex entries are anything to go by, that's what they do most of the time, if not almost all the time.

 

Is that what they do most of the time, if not almost all of the time, though?

 

As disingenuous as this might sound, you also have to look at the Dark Angels within the context of a larger business model.  Bear with me for a second.

 

Different Space Marine armies have different themes so as to cover the range of the market.  The Dark Angels are heirs to a heroic legacy, but also a sinister secret.  Their battle record would be exemplary, if not for mysterious instances of them withdrawing to pursue their own agenda.  They are fearless and heroic in combat, but aloof and taciturn off it.  They bring to mind a knight-like concept, but they also have vicious torturers in their ranks.  In fact, as one progresses through the ranks of the Inner Circle, the knightly theme becomes more prevalent, but the instances of fell deeds and secrets also increase.

 

All of those things are contingent on one piece of history: Luther's treason, and the subsequent fall of the Legion's homeworld and tens of thousands of their battle-brothers.

 

The reason why you always see the Fallen, then, is not so much because that's all the Dark Angels do... but because - from a marketing perspective - if you don't feature these things in a Dark Angels story, why are you writing a story about the Dark Angels?  If you want to write a story about stoic, taciturn Space Marines who are just purging xenos or slaughtering heretics, why not do an (e.g.) Imperial Fists story instead?

 

In actuality, though, that's basically what the Dark Angels do most of the time.  They chase down foul xenos, they seek and destroy misguided heretics, and they suppress the occasional rebellion.  Heck, Gav's stories - which do more than anything else to reinforce the "We're always going after the Fallen" concept - strongly imply this by seizing on an "old school" vibe wherein the average Dark Angel doesn't hardly ever fight a Chaos Space Marine, let alone a Fallen.  It's even more reinforced by subtle hints like Astelan being brought to captivity through hallways that look like no one's walked through them in years.  It's why the Angels of Redemption are just now on the cusp of serious censure.

[Captain Semper]

I wish I could like this twice! :D

[lost_angel]

Really good point Phoebus. Just to emphasise it compare the Piscina book to the recent master of sanctity.

 

Imho The first highlighted a fairly generic marine campaign with little to truly engage the reader (with the exception of the awesome speech made by the marine sergeant to the PDF) whilst the latter's unveiling if the inner circle made for an essential read for any da fan.

 

Without any truly gripping themes, gav seemed to struggle with the piscina campaign but, once given the chance to play with the da's 'usp', he came up with something much more interesting.

[Kilofix]

While I agree that their dark secret is what primarily defines the Dark Angles (as others have said), I also think that  such lends itself to some specialized / niche capabilities that are different from the other Chapters.

 

 

Specifically, rapid reaction to extract or destroy a specific target, or perform a delaying action, or perform a rescue, when behind enemy lines or when outnumbered, using deep strike and superior tactics.

 

Like when they assisted with extracting Marines from the DE, or rescuing Catachans from Pythos or destroying enemy ports on Vraks, etc. 

[cloakofelvenkind]

More generally I believe the DA are viewed  by the Imperium at large as the preeminent chapter for killing Chaos Space Marines. Their weapons and tactics are especially suited to the task, and as a result they are the only force on the TT that gets Preferred Enemy, CSM. To most of the Imperium I think that is what they are, anti astartes specialists. I think that is really why they are mistrusted, not the fall, but because most imperial organizations believe that extended contract with chaos is corrupting and DA do nothing as well it as often as wasting CSM. 

[Phoebus]

I would argue that the "anti-Astartes" label goes to the Minotaurs.  Personally, I think the Imperium perceives the Dark Angels as an unknown quality.

 

Part of my opinion is informed by the notion that the Dark Angels aren't "monastic" in the proper sense of the word, but instead are more like what we would think of the Knights Templar, the Hospitallers, etc., in M41.  Not direct transplants, mind you, but approximations of what the Calibanite knightly tradition might have been like.

 

To me, the Index Astartes mockup of a Dark Angel tactical marine was always a miss.  It never captured the essence of the Unforgiven.  This, for instance, isn't a monk, nor are they.  This is what happens when a knightly military order goes terribly wrong - not when the monks of (e.g.) Meteora have a crisis of faith.  I'd argue that even the Guardians of the Covenant are done a disservice when the Codex focuses on their supposed monkishness.

 

Thus, in the eyes of the Imperium, the Dark Angels at first glance are like something straight out of their legends:  noble looking, superhuman grimdark space knights.  The closer one looks, though, there seems to be a dark aspect about them.  And then there's the fact that they don't act like heroes.  Their force of personality is obvious, but they don't give grand speeches.  They don't accept praise or adoration; in fact, they seem to avoid attention, and instead cling to the shadows.  They're not just stoic and reserved, like Ultramarines or Imperial Fists (who I think inform the Imperium's stereotype of what the Adeptus Astartes are); they are grim, taciturn, and aloof.  They don't play nice, they don't offer explanations for what they do, and they don't easily take the counsel of others.  They don't care about bolstering the morale of Guardsmen, and they'd just as soon be on their way when a campaign is finished.  There is a sinister air about many of their leaders.  Officers who serve as adjutants to certain high-ranking commanders have heard whispered rumors that, in the past, the Dark Angels and their Successors were accused of abandoning fellow soldiers of the God-Emperor to their deaths.

 

In short, that "unknown quality" that I mentioned at the beginning is that the Dark Angels should be the heroes the Imperium expect them to be, but they seem to actively avoid the part.  I think that last part is what would be particularly disconcerting to Imperial authorities.  It's tangibly different from, say, the Raven Guard being aloof and keeping to themselves - since that's arguably part of their ethos, traditions, and mode of war.

[Aegnor]

Love Phoebus's post above.

[Prot]

I would argue that the "anti-Astartes" label goes to the Minotaurs.  Personally, I think the Imperium perceives the Dark Angels as an unknown quality.

 

To me, the Index Astartes mockup of a Dark Angel tactical marine was always a miss.  It never captured the essence of the Unforgiven.  This, for instance, isn't a monk, nor are they.  This is what happens when a knightly military order goes terribly wrong - not when the monks of (e.g.) Meteora have a crisis of faith.  I'd argue that even the Guardians of the Covenant are done a disservice when the Codex focuses on their supposed monkishness. /Snip

 

I agree with this.... as most of us seem to. I'd like to think that can change with some better writing and some fleshing out of the Legion.

 

I look at what ADB did for World Eaters, and what Abnett did for Space Wolves (two thoughtless legions that got some serious depth added to them from good writers).

 

Dark Angels need that. They are a prominent legion but probably still suffer from some of the worst background/fiction including the HH books.

 

That's part of why I started this subject. When I read old school 40K fiction it's just bolter porn written for 12 year olds. The new stuff is definitely more thought provoking and less stereo typical bolter crud.

 

I don't think every Dark Angel story has to be about betrayal and redemption. I mean it CAN be but it can't be all the chapter is about or they'd get nothing done.

 

When they speak of the Hunt for the Fallen, is it assumed the DA are going after their own? Or does the term "Hunt for Fallen" basically indicate a chaos worshiper is going to get an arse whoopin' somewhere/anywhere as far as DA are concerned?

 

I'd like to think that the hatred of Chaos is so strong (for what it did to their Legion) that they will go after any Chaos marine period. (Evidence of this is in the Crimson Slaughter codex.)

 

Outside of hunting Chaos, I'd like to think the chapter still actively expands. And in doing so they tangle with the typical intergalactic bad guys... Tau, Necrons, etc.

[Tanhausen]

*cough* https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gIF4rgnLXW3cE1vt2J05aQRFkFNIWeUkddnyjfp5ojg/edit?usp=sharing&authkey=CJ617qQG *cough* *cough* https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rT-dXerhRzSf4E5J8eYGtydhCQLgDL-fTVQtyJS_cjI/edit?usp=sharing&authkey=CN-2odoB *cough*

 

Whew, sorry guys, something caught in my throat...

 

So THATS what you've been doing with all those questions you threw around :P

 

Nice effort indeed!

[Phoebus]

 

I don't think every Dark Angel story has to be about betrayal and redemption. I mean it CAN be but it can't be all the chapter is about or they'd get nothing done.

 

When they speak of the Hunt for the Fallen, is it assumed the DA are going after their own? Or does the term "Hunt for Fallen" basically indicate a chaos worshiper is going to get an arse whoopin' somewhere/anywhere as far as DA are concerned?

 

The "Hunt for the Fallen" is very much exclusive to the Fallen Dark Angels who fell under Luther's sway during the Horus Heresy.  The reaction of the Dark Angels to a traitor Consecrator in Pandorax is very telling, and indicates that while they hate Chaos Space Marines that they don't rate as high as the Fallen.  That having been said ...

 

 

I'd like to think that the hatred of Chaos is so strong (for what it did to their Legion) that they will go after any Chaos marine period. (Evidence of this is in the Crimson Slaughter codex.)

 

... remember that the story with the Crimson Slaughter started as part of the Hunt for the Fallen:

 

 

Master Zadakiel and the Fifth Company were going after Attias the Untamed, a Fallen Dark Angel.  Their hunt for him led to a world whose population had been wiped out by the Crimson Slaughter.  It was because Zadakiel was slain by the Crimson Slaughter that Balthazar - the new Master of the Fifth - swore to destroy them.

 

 

 

Outside of hunting Chaos, I'd like to think the chapter still actively expands. And in doing so they tangle with the typical intergalactic bad guys... Tau, Necrons, etc.

 

Absolutely.  One of the seminal short stories about the Dark Angels - "Deathwing" - has to do with genestealers.  That having been said, I stand by my earlier point.  Ultimately, the further you get from the Hunt the less you have to do with what defines the Dark Angels.  I think the key is to ensure that Hunt-centric stories are written well and avoid the pitfalls of repetition and predictability.

[Prot]

As I read more of Ravenwing, I think about this thread and what I like and don't like about the Dark Angels.

 

I gotta be honest, I think the whole fallen thing is their downfall. It reminds me of a bad relationship you just can't let go of, and no matter what good could come into your life, it is stolen away by this all consuming hole in your gut.

 

Dark Angels obviously do their own thing. I think that's a positive, even though I'm sure Guilliman doesn't think so. 

 

Think about how much resource it takes to hunt 'fallen'. The Dark Angels MUST produce on other levels or someone from Terra would be asking questions. - What have you guys been doing all this time? 

 

"I dunno, we thought some Chaos dudes who look like us in black armour were hanging around so we chased them for a week until they disappeared."

 

"Okay, what about the week before that?"

 

"There were these other guys who also looked like us, and we chased them for about 2 weeks."

 

" And before that...."

 

I think the Chapter might be defined by that action, but so many chapters have a similar 'issue' in their ranks at some time (Wolves, Crimson Sabres, Blood Drinkers, Red Corsairs) it's almost... not unique anymore.

 

To dedicate such a massive, not to mentioned talented resource to this unending endeavor.... Think about some of the best Terminators in the Imperium, Bikers, and I imagine marines, and their resoruces are constantly squandered on finding a dude wearing a potato sack and two pistols?!

 

I think this is what appeals to me least about the legion. I'd like to see something that moves them away from this, and let's them... turn the page in their story.

 

I understand saying this defines them BUT even with turning the page and moving on, I think it still defines them because they will always be 'stubborn' and very reluctant allies. They will always be suspicious and extremely sensitive to heresy in their own ranks.

 

Sorry, I'd just really like to see the Dark Angels move on... not forget, but turn the page so to speak. 

[Tanhausen]

 

I gotta be honest, I think the whole fallen thing is their downfall. It reminds me of a bad relationship you just can't let go of, and no matter what good could come into your life, it is stolen away by this all consuming hole in your gut.

 

[snip]

 

 

You don't get it, do you?

 

She [the Fallen] said she'd be a stay home mom and was ok with that.

 

Then we go out to earn our bacon and when we get back not only has she been unfaithful [those Ruinous Powers and their darn sexy Slaanesh], she's even changed the locks and won't let us in..

 

Obviously, we get :cuss and in the heat of the moment, she slips away through a window her new friend opened for her and there we're left:

 

- With the house made a mess

- HR being a pesk because it seems our personal life has affected our performance

- Scrambling to get our stuff together

- We even got our head of department MIA

 

 

Sorry, I'd just really like to see the Dark Angels move on... not forget, but turn the page so to speak.

 

She's gotta face and pay her dues...it ain't nice being looked over the shoulder because of how her actions showed on us.

 

Disclaimer: I guess its obvious, but this whole post is written in a light-hearted and playful tone.

 

It does not endorse, reflect or any other verb that people with too much free time use to bother ;)