What Defines the Dark Angels? And Where Are We Now?

[Cactus]

As I read more of Ravenwing, I think about this thread and what I like and don't like about the Dark Angels.

 

I gotta be honest, I think the whole fallen thing is their downfall. It reminds me of a bad relationship you just can't let go of, and no matter what good could come into your life, it is stolen away by this all consuming hole in your gut.

 

I like the analogy, and agree that the Hunt is the Dark Angels' Achilles heel.

 

Dark Angels obviously do their own thing. I think that's a positive, even though I'm sure Guilliman doesn't think so. 

 

Think about how much resource it takes to hunt 'fallen'. The Dark Angels MUST produce on other levels or someone from Terra would be asking questions. - What have you guys been doing all this time? 

 

"I dunno, we thought some Chaos dudes who look like us in black armour were hanging around so we chased them for a week until they disappeared."

 

"Okay, what about the week before that?"

 

"There were these other guys who also looked like us, and we chased them for about 2 weeks."

 

" And before that...."

 

With all due respect, I think this is reductionist hyperbole. Where interstellar travel takes anything from days to years and space marines are autonomous fighting forces they do not have to account for their movements on a week-by-week basis. Traces of the Fallen are not that common anyway.

 

I think the Chapter might be defined by that action, but so many chapters have a similar 'issue' in their ranks at some time (Wolves, Crimson Sabres, Blood Drinkers, Red Corsairs) it's almost... not unique anymore.

 

I'm not familiar with those issues, so maybe you're right. However I doubt that they compare with a legion rebellion immediately following the Horus Heresy and 10,000 years of shady operations to conceal said event.

 

To dedicate such a massive, not to mentioned talented resource to this unending endeavor.... Think about some of the best Terminators in the Imperium, Bikers, and I imagine marines, and their resoruces are constantly squandered on finding a dude wearing a potato sack and two pistols?!

 

Which is why the 1st and 2nd companies are larger than the codex-approved 100 combat personnel. Also the reason the Dark Angels and their successors have unusually close relations at a strategic level.

 

I think this is what appeals to me least about the legion. I'd like to see something that moves them away from this, and let's them... turn the page in their story.

 

I understand saying this defines them BUT even with turning the page and moving on, I think it still defines them because they will always be 'stubborn' and very reluctant allies. They will always be suspicious and extremely sensitive to heresy in their own ranks.

 

Sorry, I'd just really like to see the Dark Angels move on... not forget, but turn the page so to speak.

 

"Moving on" is not really something that the 40k setting does. A lot of people wish it did, but it doesn't.

 

You mentioned the opening of Ravenwing in your initial post. Have you read Angels of Darkness? The incident involving Boreas and the keep on Piscina IV is the core of that novel and Ravenwing is essentially a sequel to that. I can see how it would come across as a formulaic setup if you aren't aware of that.

 

Ultimately the Hunt for the Fallen is what defines the Dark Angels. I've just finished re-reading Ravenwing and what somebody said earlier in this thread rings true - without the Hunt there's very little to differentiate stubborn Dark Angels from the stoic Imperial Fists or unrelenting Minotaurs. But the Hunt is more than Keystone Kops across the galaxy. It's the reason for two unique specialist companies, layers of obfuscation within the command structure, obedience to superior officers that goes beyond normal astartes discipline, a reluctance to deal too closely with other arms of the Imperium and - to an outsider - some extremely dubious tactical decisions. I think that's great because I like conspiracy theories and anti-heroes.

[Prot]

 

 

Dark Angels obviously do their own thing. I think that's a positive, even though I'm sure Guilliman doesn't think so. 

 

Think about how much resource it takes to hunt 'fallen'. The Dark Angels MUST produce on other levels or someone from Terra would be asking questions. - What have you guys been doing all this time? 

 

"I dunno, we thought some Chaos dudes who look like us in black armour were hanging around so we chased them for a week until they disappeared."

 

"Okay, what about the week before that?"

 

"There were these other guys who also looked like us, and we chased them for about 2 weeks."

 

" And before that...."

 

With all due respect, I think this is reductionist hyperbole. Where interstellar travel takes anything from days to years and space marines are autonomous fighting forces they do not have to account for their movements on a week-by-week basis. Traces of the Fallen are not that common anyway.

 

 

 

 

You're right it is hyperbole, and as such of course the chapter doesn't have to account for their weekly activities... hence the exaggeration. However it is well documented that the lords of terra have tithes, taxes and other ways of following and keeping tabs on all facets of the imperium. (Not to mention the Inquisition whose soul purpose would potentially have them crossing paths with the fallen... the fact (?) they haven't is kind of weird the more I think about it.... there's a novel in there somewhere.)

 

All I'm saying with that exaggeration is everytime I read a Dark Angel piece, this is what they're doing with their time. It can't be the sum of their parts or they'd be dismantled. Just my opinion of course... and naturally I think THIS can't be all they do. I'd love to read more of the Deathwing exploits, and same of the Ravenwing.

 

I'd love to read those stories taking place in the current game. I feel like once the Heresy run is over, we're gonna be stuck on finding Cypher.

 

As far as the book you mention, no I didn't realize it was a pre-quel I'll definitely put on my list. Thank you...

 

Also happened to run into Savage Weapons on the Black Library in download format. I'll probably get that too.

[Phoebus]

Where the other Chapters you mentioned are concerned, their secrets don't compete to that of the Dark Angels.  The Space Wolves suffer from a geneseed flaw.  So do the Blood Angels and their Successors.  If the High Lords of Terra found out about the Mark of the Wulfen, the Red Thirst, or the Black Rage, I sincerely doubt they would be cause for them to destroy two First Founding Chapters (and dozens of other Successors, where the Blood Angels are concerned).  I think unfriendly and/or ultraconservative elements within the Imperium would use that as pretext to strip them of their homeworlds and put them on some sort of unending Penitent Crusade.  Also, I would imagine they would keep the Blood Angels separate from other Imperial forces.  That's about it, though.

 

Where the Dark Angels and their Successors are concerned, the High Lords almost certainly do suspect something is off with them.  That's probably why the gene-seed of Lion El'Jonson, which is basically flawless (as compared to Space Wolf, Imperial Fist, Blood Angel), has very rarely used for Foundings of new Chapters.  Furthermore, there is the odd tidbit here and there about Inquisitors suspecting something about the Dark Angels.  They can't prove anything, though, because the Dark Angels Legion probably divided into dozens and dozens of Successor Chapters after the Horus Heresy.  All of those Chapters take the lead of the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels when it comes to the Hunt.  That means it's never just one Chapter hunting down the Fallen.  As others have offered, they can coordinate their efforts for greater success.

 

That just adds to the secrets that the Dark Angels have to maintain.  In their case, both their major secrets - the Hunt for the Fallen and their "secret Legion" organization - would be cause for war in the High Lords' eyes.  The First Rule of the Imperium is you do not command spaceships AND armies.  The Second Rule of the Imperium is you do not let Chapters become Legions again.  Both of those rules boil down to "don't let someone have that kind of power again".  Azrael probably commands close to as many Space Marines as were needed to put down the Macharian Crusade.  That's more Space Marines in one place, for one fight, since (probably) the Age of Apostasy.  Maybe longer. 

And that's before we even get into the Hunt and all the sins the Dark Angels have committed in the name of it!

 

You keep going back to stories that don't have to do with the Fallen... but, again, it probably comes down to a marketing decision: to keep the Dark Angels unique in their own way.  If you want to read stories about Space Marines that don't chase the Fallen, I think Black Library would, more often than not, tell you to check out an Imperial Fists story.  That's not to say that you'll never see a Dark Angels story that doesn't involve the Fallen (see, for instance, The Purging of Kadillus)... it's just that this will be the exception, rather than the rule.

[Cactus]

I would also love to read more Dark Angel stories where they're fighting aliens, or common rebels without a mysterious space marine pulling their strings. The difficulty is that to represent them as more than Imperial Fists in green you probably need to at least allude to the Fallen. I hope an author comes along who proves me wrong but Purging of Kadillus was a bit flat and the Dark Vengeance novella is simply awful. The precedents are not good. Deathwing is the obvious exception to this rule but that story pre-dates Codex: Angels of Death that set the template for the modern Dark Angels.

[Prot]

I would also love to read more Dark Angel stories where they're fighting aliens, or common rebels without a mysterious space marine pulling their strings. The difficulty is that to represent them as more than Imperial Fists in green you probably need to at least allude to the Fallen. I hope an author comes along who proves me wrong but Purging of Kadillus was a bit flat and the Dark Vengeance novella is simply awful. The precedents are not good. Deathwing is the obvious exception to this rule but that story pre-dates Codex: Angels of Death that set the template for the modern Dark Angels.

 

I agree a lot with your first sentence. But I think the Ravenwing/Deathwing combo provide plenty of reason to define the story as Dark Angels rather than some other chapter. But again it takes a good author. If you go back far enough all of the Marine fiction really stunk. A few good authors came on board and I think the bar is a lot higher now. The problem again I see is it will take a good author to take us down a different  Dark Angel rabbit hole. 

[FerociousBeast]

"That just adds to the secrets that the Dark Angels have to maintain. In their case, both their major secrets - the Hunt for the Fallen and their "secret Legion" organization - would be cause for war in the High Lords' eyes."

 

Maybe in the 31st millennium, but not the 41st where we have the Black Templars and the Red Corsairs.

 

I've always thought the Dark Angel's justification for the secrecy of the hunt is quite slim, but I've come to explain it away as a product of two things: pride and force of habit. And perhaps a hefty dose of fear as well. Pride to avoid the shame of such a dark smear on the chapter/legion's glorious honor; force of habit aka tradition, "we won't be the ones to betray our ancestors"; fear because they know that what caused their brethren to fall might cause others of their uninitiated to fall as well.

 

In other words, the hunt and it's accustomed secrecy has gained a momentum of its own over the millennia. While it may have been necessary at the dawn of the Imperium and the dark days of the end of the heresy, such ancient history is no longer relevant today, but it lives on anyway in the traditions and psychology of the Unforgiven.

 

I've written at length on this subject in a couple of my earlier threads on this board.

[Phoebus]

Where the Hunt for the Fallen is concerned, it's not the secrecy itself that would be cause for war.  Once the Inquisition or the High Lords found out about the Hunt, though, it would only be a matter of time before they connected the dots and figured out just how many times over the millennia the Fallen had caused the Imperium damage; how many times the Dark Angels themselves abandoned Imperial forces, compromised campaigns they were meant to support, etc.

 

Put more succinctly, the Dark Angels aren't just fighting to keep Luther's betrayal a secret, but everything they've done since.  They're like a gambler who keeps raising on the same bad hand.

 

Where the "Secret Legion" bit is concerned, the Black Templars are just not a good counterexample in my humble opinion.  I would be shocked if the Black Templars numbered more than five or six thousand Space Marines.  While their numbers are technically unknown, I find it difficult to imagine that the Imperium couldn't cross-reference reports of their various Crusades and arrive at a decent estimate for their manpower.  There is precedent for this:  the reports cited in Battlefleet Gothic Imperial Fleets.  It's safe to assume that this sort of data is sought after.  That leads me to believe that the Imperium probably knows the Templars exceed the Codex-authorized manpower... but they let it slide because (A) of their pedigree, (B) unquestioned loyalty, and, most importantly, © they constantly keep their numbers divided throughout the breadth of the galaxy.  This means that they cannot easily mass enough manpower to threaten the Imperium, which is the point of the Codex's limitation to begin with.

 

By contrast, even before the Horus Heresy series made the legions huge (and thus made it plausible that the First Legion  would be a significant force afterwards), there were seven known Chapters of the Unforgiven.  That's not counting any unnamed Chapters (whose existence the hobby practically demands).  That many Chapters acting under the direction of a single man is double the sin of the Astral Claws under Lugft Huron.  Their many transgressions in the name of the Hunt easily match the Claws' unwillingness to give up geneseed or claiming a big fief for themselves.

 

Because the legion sizes changed, though, it now becomes very possible that the Unforgiven number in the many tens of thousands.  Even if they only numbered 40-60,000, they would still be the largest cohesive force of Space Marines seen in millennia (other than those sent to quell the Macharian Heresy).  That level of power under Azrael's control is an absolutely terrifying proposition to the Imperium.

If the Imperium ever finds out about this... Man.  I can't imagine the High Lords letting the Dark Angels keep the Rock, and I imagine they would demand that the leadership of the Unforgiven be surrendered, so as to decapitate the Inner Circle.  I'm thinking they would demand they go on Penitent Crusade for, well, forever.