Warp Talons

[Dam13n]

Well, keeping with the current trend of positive topics we've seen in recent months, I thought I would start one focusing on the (previously) much maligned Warp Talons.

 

In my opinion 7th has opened some doors for making this previously dismissed unit more viable, but I'm interested to see what others think.

 

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The new malefic powers add much to proceedings, primarily thanks to Cursed Earth, although Summoning and Sacrifice are also useful additions.  Combining the Mark of Tzeentch and Cursed Earth will give any Daemonic Chaos Marine unit a 3++, which is nothing to be sniffed at.

 

The changes to the way Detachments work I believe also adds to this.  We can now take multiple Heralds from Codex: Daemons as a single HQ, and further expand on them via summoning/sacrifice.  Tzeentch heralds also have access to Divination, which means they could be used to Prescience certain units which can be used to help overcome some of the drawbacks of Warp Talons.

 

Skullcannon Chariots being one such unit.  With a decent BS and re-rolls to hit (from prescience) plus its secondary bonus of adding assault grenades to any unit that then charges the target (which is a useful boost to Warp Talons (as they lack those grenades)).  The Chariots themselves are pretty decent, being AV12 and Daemonic.

 

I also look at Crimson Slaughter as a handy supplement to add to proceedings.  A Daemonheart equipped Jump Pack Sorcerer (or Lord) to join the Talons (ideally with an AP2 weapon) and maybe Telepathy or Biomancy to boost their effectiveness/resilience.  Invisibility/Endurance being the obvious choices IMO.  He'll also add a 2+ save to them to tank the odd wound.

 

Lastly, the much dismissed Blinding ability of the Talons is helped by Cursed Earth (no scatter).  The increased resilience of the boosted unit (via psychic powers) then compensating for them being potentially 'out in the open' afterwards.

 

- - - - -

 

So, has anybody else been rethinking this under-utilised unit?  If so, what tactics/thoughts have you come up with?

 

(Please remember that dismissive and overly negative comments are not helpful in these sorts of discussions, so please keep them to yourself.  Thanks)

[Chaeron]

I think they're awesome models - although I don't currently own any. I do have ten Raptors, which I think I'd probably just choose over them - but assuming that we can actively buff them, there's no reason that they couldn't be a solid unit (albeit expensive, and difficult to deliver).

[Deadman Wade]

Warp talons are too specialized - killing infantry with 3+ or worse save. They are quite durable with 5++, mobile and decent in combat, but it's hard to find a target for them . If you play against hordes of boyz/nids/culticts or manage to catch necrons or eldar outside their transports, they are great, but not for anything else.

[minigun762]

Warp talons are too specialized - killing infantry with 3+ or worse save.

It just dawned on me that they're also solid against T6 3+ save MCs, especially non assault versions.

You're effectively wounding on 5's and bring an inv save.

[A D-B]

Definitely a specialised unit. I've used them slaughter Devastator/Havoc Squads a few times. They're basically a Kill Button for the one or two Dev/Hav squads I often see in the backfield. 

 

They did great - and they certainly did it faster than my Raptors would've done it - but the idea of buffing them in other ways is kinda intriguing.

[Deadman Wade]

Yeah, I've seen burna boyz taking down Hive Tyrant, warp talons should do it better :D They have jump packs, 5++, pair of claws (and claws alone are usually 30 pts on non-terminator models), and still cheaper than terminators, I think they actually would be good if VotLW and marks wouldn't be so expensive.

[the jeske]

Do you plan to run them along side a screamer star or drop them out of Kairos. a 3-4  separate units combo are offten very fragile ?

[Dallas Drake]

If you can knock a FMC out of the sky (which can be hard tbh) then they're a good unit to pounce on it. I'd support them with a Sorcerer in a unit of bikes, or a jump pack Sorcerer; both are fast enough to be where they need to be & provide the buffs. Just remember PoTV can only run with Possessed, shame you don't have the option to run with Warp Talons too.

 

Anyway... It strikes me that they're a unit that like Malefic (as you said) but also Telepathy. Like you said, Cursed Earth & Tzeentch is good, though you'll need to put thought into how you get Malefic 'safely'. Shrouded or Invisability would benefit them massively & can be used on non-daemon units (unlike Cursed Earth).

 

If I played against lots of Long Fangs or MEQs I'd probably try them out, trying a small unit with maybe MoT (probably naked) both Deep Striking and jumping up the board behind cover. I'm drawn to jumping them up the board, they have a small footprint and I'm not wowed by Blind tbh.

[incinerator950]

I would love for Prophet to run with Spawn and Warp Talons.

[Teetengee]

Also, we should probably figure out if the gate power in sanctic would allow their Blind to be reusable. Also, here is my related topic from the tactica forum.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292577-a-place-for-warp-talons/

[NoLifeKing]

Its good to remember that if you are playing your army from crimson slaughter supplement, a sorc with the Posessed relic on him can cast malefic powers without penalty, because it does give him Daemon special rule. sticking him to big blob of possessed, cursed earth would keep them at 4++ at all times, and in the occasion their STTV table grants them the 3++ save, it would be 2++. Just imagine the die of 20 possessed running across the field with 2++ save?

[Sception]

I think they're still too expensive, too fragile, and too narrow to build a decent death star out of - not to mention lacking in key skills and gear for melee death stars like hit & run, assault grenades, and the like. As such, I think they're still best off run as minimum sized units hopping from cover to cover, avoiding line of sight until they can get the jump on an exposed tactical or devastator squad or the like. I'd say slaanesh mark, if any, though they're expensive enough already that I'd probably go markless myself.

 

Yes, you can put a lot of effort, including mark of tzeentch, sorcerers spamming defensive buffs, or allied daemons with grimoir, into buffing their invulnerable save, but that's all pretty unreliable, and generally caps out around 3++, which leaves you dying just as easily to small arms fire as they did already. Bolters and lasguns don't care if your 3+ save is armor, cover, or invulnerable, and when you're costing terminator points plus, you'll die fast enough regardless.

 

Even with cursed earth, I still think the blind isn't worth trying for. For one, you have to actually roll and successfully cast cursed earth, and for two, the enemy can still shrug off the blind with an init test, and it leaves your pricy talons in the open to get gunned down. 150 points of your list and a kill point to your opponent is too much to pay to impose a blind test.

 

 

Anyway, to reiterate, if running talons, I still personally say min size, deploy on the field, stay out of line of sight, and pounce on targets of opportunity, just like in 6th edition. And just like 6th edition, if you don't play with a lot of line of sight blocking terrain, or if your opponent is running a lot of mobile firepower, los ignoring barrage weaponry, or drop podding marine squads that can target your talons regardless of positioning, then just leave them at home. Even at min size, they're too pricey to be used as distraction fodder, imo.

[the jeske]

The sad part about them is that with ally , they make no sense at all as a unit. If they were something like BA venguard[or old sm venguard] or had some niffy rules to cost ratio [imagine they had something like the BL nova on landing LD-2d6 of wounds in 3" from the unit, with same points they have] , they would be more interesting. Right now they sit in a slot where we wouldn't want them , even as a 4th unit in multi detachment army and terminators do the same thing they do and shot plasma/melta with better resiliance.

[Sception]

There's any number of changes that could be made to them. Trade their blind rule for allowing charge on arrival - now there's a rule that would warrant the risk and cost of them. Or trade their lightning claws for rending claws, which would make them simultaneously cheaper and more versatile - with attacks that could make terminators and vehicles think twice.

 

With the nerf to heldrakes, at least picking on 3+ save infantry is a role that might be worth considering, but it's still a bit narrow for a unit that's so expensive and so fragile.

[Sheesh Mode]

I agree with Malisteen, they are not a deathstar they are a scalpel. In my experience a full group of Talons with Veterans of the Losng War and Mark of Slaanesh will kill a 10 man squad of tactical marines. Likewise a Khorne marked unit will make short work of an Imperial Guard infantry blob, it all depends on application. I am very interested in the idea of using them to assassinate Monsterous Creatures.

[Sception]

Thing is, a 5-6 man squad will probably also kill that squad of tactical marines, and if they don't do so in a single turn, then all's the better, because it means the enemy won't be able to wipe them out in the following turn.

 

I think that if you top 200 points on a warp talon unit, you've spent too much, but that's just a personal rule of thumb.

[Dallas Drake]

There's any number of changes that could be made to them. Trade their blind rule for allowing charge on arrival - now there's a rule that would warrant the risk and cost of them.

Outside of FW or Apocalypse GW will never allow a unit to charge out of deep strike. VV had it & they lost it.

[Sception]

I agree.  Didn't say it would actually happen, just one of several changes that could make them worthwhile.  In particular, I think that's about the only change that would make it even worth considering trying to deep strike them within 6" of an enemy unit.  Short of that, I think their 'warpflame strike' rule in particular is just dead on arrival, no matter what the designers do with it.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah. I can't see what GW could even do with them? Maybe give them Shrouded USR & allow them to use their jump packs after DS? That might make them useful... I'm not sure though :/

[Sception]

I think deep strike is just not an effective choice for assault units.  Particularly fast moving, fragile assault units.  Moving on your own, you can carefully position them to avoid line of sight.  Dropping them with 2d6 scatter and you've basically got a 2/3 chance of leaving them exposed to enemy fire that they simply cannot take.

 

Even worse, deep striking close to the enemy, where you're guaranteed to be exposed (even if the enemy you're landing near is already locked in combat, talons are tall, and the rest of their army will easily be able to shoot you over the combatants' heads), assuming you don't just mishap outright.

 

There is literally only one possible rule that can make trying to deep strike a fragile melee unit that close to the enemy worth while, and that's assault on arrival, which has been removed from the game (and with good reason).  As such, warpflame strike is a dead rule, and the best that warp talons can hope for is to be changed in other ways such that they might be worth taking even despite the points wasted on their useless signature ability.

[Dallas Drake]

Yeah, I have to agree. Deep Strike needs totally reviewing.

 

What about if they could teleport? Like Gate of Infinity or Leviathan, or maybe if they got Scout/Infiltate? I don't know... I'm grasping at straws really & I'm going to be very interested to see if GW salvage this unit in the next CSM codex or just ditch it.

[Teetengee]

I think that the warpflame strike could be made useful if a. the range was increased and b. the initiative test was removed/made harder (reroll successes?, at a penalty?)

If they could reliably blind the unit they are targeting then they might not need to be able to assault out of reserve

[MaliGn]

If they could pick a single target unit per game pre deployment(in the same vein as the murder sword) that they were allowed to assault from deep strike then that would reflect their fluff better. There's no guarantee that they would be able to utilise the rule as that unit could be held in reserve, deployed in a fortification or vehicle, or just cleverly enough that deep striking within assault range would be too dangerous to risk when they arrive. Could make things more useful.