Terminators or power armour?

[Captain Coolpants]

I know it's more down to personal preference. But what do you guys prefer. Terminators or power armour (strike squads)? I thought of some points to consider for each.

 

Power amour (strike squads):

 

Pros:

more mobile and can have more transport options

Cheaper Base cost

Farrr Cheaper psycannons

More bodies/shots

 

Cons:

Just as squishy as any other marine

Only 1 attack each

Kinda need to have a transport

 

 

Terminator amour:

 

Pros:

More survivable

Free hammers/halberds

Cheap falchions

Cheap incinerators

More attacks base

Justicar thawn upgrade character

 

Cons:

Expensive

Larger target

Plasma ruins them as if they were sissy guard

Expensive transport options.

Rather expensive psycannons

 

That's all I can think of. If you guys can add more please tell!

But what do you guys prefer?

Share your experiences /opinions ;-)

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

Termies can not sweeping advance, but with Swords have 2+ and 4++ in close combat.

 

I will be taking both.

[Gentlemanloser]

I love the old pewter GKT.

 

I love the new plastic PAGK.

 

They go together like rama lama lama ka dinga da dinga dong!

[Berle]

I use both.

 

10 man strike squads in Rhinos with 2xPsycannon and psybolts makes a great firebase, while Terminators are the assault units in my army. Then finally i have cheap henchmen for scoring.

 

Sometimes i also use purifiers, but when playing against IG or Orks they are simply too powerful and no fun (cleansing flame)

[Captain Coolpants]

I've been toying with the idea of scrapping strike squads. And replacing them with two 5 man terminator squads, then using purifiers to fill my army. Something like;

 

Grandmaster with nades, mc hammer, incinerator, digital weapons

Two 10 man purifier squads, each with 2 hammers, 2 psycannons, 2 incinerators, 4 halberds (including justicars) , combat squaded in rhinos

5 man terminator squad with psycannon

6man terminator squad with psycannon

Stormraven gunship with multi-melta and plasma cannons

3 psyfleman dreads

 

2000pts

 

This isn't really an army list thread. More of a 'you think terminators will work better or worse' thread. Not just for this list. Any list wher you'd normally see strike squads

Thoughts?

[Valerian]

One more Terminator pro

 

Terminators are Relentless, hence their Psycannon are twice as effective on the move.  New Tactical Objectives in Maelstrom missions just enhances the importance of that Mobility. 

[Captain Coolpants]

One more Terminator pro

 

Terminators are Relentless, hence their Psycannon are twice as effective on the move.  New Tactical Objectives in Maelstrom missions just enhances the importance of that Mobility.

 

Didn't think of that! Something that pretty important, especially since I love CC armies.

[Quixus]

Plasma ruins them as if they were sissy guard

Don't they get a 5+ invul save? Guard troops don't get that AFAIK.

[Captain Coolpants]

I suppose a 5++ is better than nothing. But you'll be failing that save most of the time. So 2 rapid fire plasmas wounding 4 terminators, statistically you'll be lucky to even save 1. Although that's better than nothing, you've still lost 120pts worth of terminators (with no special weapons), when you could have only lost 80pts worth of power armored guys. And if the were guard you would only have lost like 16pts haha

[Trevak Dal]

Nemesis force swords allow you to get +1 to invulernable saves in Close Combat, so that's something for Terminators (and probably why Hammers and Halberds are free)

[Quozzo]

Sure terminators have a 2+/5++ as opposed to 3+ but with twice the bodies you have twice the wounds and twice the number of storm-psybolt shots.

[Trokair]

PAGK for me.

 

While Terminators are relentless, so that good for psycannons. However an equal point cost PAGK bring the same number of Psycannon shots on the move and double when standing still. Not to mention more Stormbolter to shot with.

[jeffersonian000]

I prefer GKT and GKIS. With the loss of Warp Quake, my GKSS are now GKIS.

 

SJ

[Adeptus]

Don't forget our new psychic abilities. Invisibility on a 10 man Terminator squad is mint. And even Sanctuary on Terminators is much more effective than it is on Strike squads. It's never a good plan to rely on getting a particular power, but at the same time you want to have units in your army that can take advantage of those powers if you generate them. And while Strike squads are better at shooting (if the stars align and everything goes to plan. There IS still two units to co-ordinate, after all) Terminators are much better in combat.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've had a few games with Terminators, and honestly Purifiers do the same job cheaper. All the defensive tech we can now access (Invisibility, Shrouding, Forewarning etc) works just as well on Purifiers, they bring more psycannon, attacks, wounds and combat squad potential than Terminators. Terminators are slightly better in melee, but when are you taking swords? Halberds kill the enemy before they can swing, and hammers are your only reliable way through enemy 2+ saves. Even on our characters, swords are the least useful nemesis type. 

 

Interceptors are most definitely our replacement for Strikes in 7th. They score now, and their mobility is very crucial. Getting rid of problem backfield units Turn 1 with Shunt and incinerator is hard to replicate. With the nerfs to other factions broken combos, dead Pathfinders/Lootaz etc Turn 1 is very handy. Even Marine shooty units don't like a unit of Jump Infantry knights flaming them in their face Turn 1. 

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I think I will take a unit of Terminators, people rightly fear Terminators and our Terminators are soooooo much better, they will be a massive target for the enemy. Leaving the Interceptors etc to get into position and do their thing. A Strike squad at your own objective to keep that safe with your Psyflmen. Game won.

I think I just made my GK Termies into a massive target!

[Adeptus]

I've had a few games with Terminators, and honestly Purifiers do the same job cheaper. All the defensive tech we can now access (Invisibility, Shrouding, Forewarning etc) works just as well on Purifiers, they bring more psycannon, attacks, wounds and combat squad potential than Terminators.

Purifiers die twice as fast, which is OK since they are half the price. But they can't deepstrike and their WS4 hurts them in Melee. On the move they only fire as many shots as the Terminators. If they stand still they fire twice as many, but in my experience you aren't going to have many targets available to you if you stand still with a 24" range weapon.

 

 

 

Terminators are slightly better in melee, but when are you taking swords? Halberds kill the enemy before they can swing, and hammers are your only reliable way through enemy 2+ saves. Even on our characters, swords are the least useful nemesis type.

 

Do you really want to be trading model for model against enemy Terminators? Or against other things that ignore 2+ armour? A couple of swords in the unit lets you hide the more vulnerable models behind your 4++ save, or 3++ if you manage to get Sanctuary off. This is the major difference between Purifiers and Terminators IMO. One is a shooting unit with a bit of combat potential, the other is a truly general purpose unit, good in melee and shooting alike.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purifiers die twice as fast, which is OK since they are half the price. But they can't deepstrike and their WS4 hurts them in Melee. On the move they only fire as many shots as the Terminators. If they stand still they fire twice as many, but in my experience you aren't going to have many targets available to you if you stand still with a 24" range weapon.

 

Against Riptides, I do not notice the difference. Also, fewer wounds means every casualty hurts more with Terminators, as I rarely have the points for a full 10-man squad. 

 

Deepstrike is largely meaningless, due to Interceptor and bubblewrap. Purifiers only need to walk for a turn to be in range of most things. Terminators are also WS4. 

 

Double special weapons does matter a lot, even more so when you stay still. 

Do you really want to be trading model for model against enemy Terminators? Or against other things that ignore 2+ armour? A couple of swords in the unit lets you hide the more vulnerable models behind your 4++ save, or 3++ if you manage to get Sanctuary off. This is the major difference between Purifiers and Terminators IMO. One is a shooting unit with a bit of combat potential, the other is a truly general purpose unit, good in melee and shooting alike.

 

No, ideally I just dump plasma into enemy Terminators, and never engage them in melee. 

 

Purifiers have more than 'a bit of combat' potential. They have exactly the same profile, same nemesis options...2+ armour is a huge asset in melee, no question, but I rarely lose Purifiers to melee. More commonly, they die to shooting. 

 

 

With Purifiers and Interceptors, its possible to field 30 Knights in a normal list, and still have points leftover for HQ and support units. 30 Terminators leaves very little room for upgrades or support units, they're slow, and against AP2 they die pretty much at the rate of regular Knights (5+ invul is unreliable at best). 

[Adeptus]

To each their own. I'm just pointing out that it's not as clear cut as simply saying "Purifiers are objectively a better choice".
 There's marks on both sides of the ledger.

[IK Viper]

Point for point Strike Marines are better than Terminators in every way besides combat, and even then, 2 Strike Marines the same attacks as one Terminator and one more if you charge. 

 

PAGK do MSU better which gives you more scoring units, more warp charges, less wasted shooting at other MSU style units, more wounds per point, and more fire power per point. 

 

the durability of 2 Strikes is the exact same as 1 Terminator when being shot by bolters and other similar weapons.  Against AP 2 weapons the Strikes are actually still more resilient than TDA because it is harder to inflict 2 wounds than it is to inflict 1 wound through a 5++.  As soon as these units are placed in cover they both get a 4+ cover save and the Strikes durability is exactly double that of a Terminator.  The only area where TDA out performs PA is vs AP3 weapons.  Which makes sense.  But my argument is that there are far fewer AP3 weapons being used in the game, relative to the number of AP 2 weapons.  Unless you see a lot more AP3 than AP2 in your meta Strike Marines are more durable then Terminators. 

 

2 Strikes put out TWICE the ranged firepower as a single Terminator with Stormbolters and as said above, a 10 man unit of Strikes has the same number of shots as a Terminator unit of equal points while moving, and double the shots when stationary, or when Snap Firing (a very useful thing when targeting Flyers and firing Overwatch.) 

 

Strikes get beat down by Terminators in CC in a head-to-head fight, no question, and Terminators out perform Strikes against nasty CC units.  Strikes are there to shoot a lot and then assault a MEQ or lesser unit and wipe them in CC or try and Force Weapon an MC they can wound reasonably well.  Terminators will fair much better against elite CC units, if they get into combat, because of their 4++ save from their Swords and free swap access to all the weapon options. 

 

If you want CC power take the Terminators, if you want shooting, more warp charges, more resilience to shooting, more shooting efficiency due to lack of over kill, and more units on the field, take Strikes.  Since 7th edition, like 6th edition, is a Shooting centric edition.... take Strikes or other better PAGK unless you are planning on trying to force a lot of CC and have a way to deliver your more fragile Terminators into CC where they can out perform their PA brothers.   

[Gentlemanloser]

A brilliant post.  But.  TDA did get a slight boost in survivability with 6th, when Power Wepaons were changed from ignoring Armour saves to (mostly) AP3.

 

So in general, TDA gains a lot more survivability in CC now than they used to.

[march10k]

PAGK for me.  Sure the termie psycannons are better on the move due to relentless, but that is largely offset by twice as many S5 shots from the strikes (for the same points, i.e. 5 termies vs 10 strikes, assuming pure stormbolters, if you do psycannons, it's actually 16 S5 shots vs...6).  They're also more vulnerable to torrenting and AP2 shooting than strikes, and they're not actually more mobile.  If you're playing tactical objectives, mobility matters, shooting is almost completely an afterthought.  And the termies don't have ANY mobility advantage.  

 

Strikes give you access to a cheap mobile scorer in the form of a transport...that can be run empty if you want, to double the number of super-scorers.  That gives you the option to camp one objective (negating the relentless advantage of the termies, by the way) while still using something much faster than infantry to zoom over and cap the objective card that you just randomly drew.  What benefit is there to camping an objective with a super-scorer?  MASSIVE benefits.  First, the tactical objectives shift every turn as cards are discarded and new ones drawn.  You might draw a card and say "cool, I'm already sitting there, this is a free VP."  Second, tactical objective VPs are awarded at the end of a player turn.  If your opponent draws objective five and you're not already camping it with a super-scorer, you have ZERO opportunity to contest that VP if he claims it with a super-scorer.  If you have a psyfleman sitting on it, sure you keep his sentinel squadron from claiming it, but all he has to do is drive a chimera up instead, and it's his point.  

 

Camping just two of six objectives, especially from a position where you can cover 1-2 others with shooting, is a huge advantage in a tactical objectives game.  Strikes let you do that with a higher volume of fire for the same points, are less susceptible to torrenting and AP2 shooting, and give you access to cheap super-scoring vehicles.  As a deathwing player, I'm attracted to GKTs, but as a guard player, I know that spamming super-scorers and bodies wins the day in 7th edition.

[Captain Coolpants]

good points with vehicle scoring. But our terminators are also objective secured, I'd rather terminators stealing an enemy objective and assaulting the enemy than some squishy power armour.

 

 

Spectating now... What if our new codex allows landraiders add a dedicated transport for our terminators? (like they should be)

 

 

And again everyone says that strike squads shoot better because of double shots, but does that really matter when the terminators assault with 3 hammer attacks each with hammerhand giving them strength 10?

[IK Viper]

You have to deliver those guys into combat.  Shooting happens every turn.  A lot of the time assaults are hard to set up, and even if you do, not until turn 3 or 4.  Shooting < Assault right now, specially with all the long range fire power and highly mobile shooting platforms in the game. 

 

GK, or any Imperial Army for that matter, is not fast enough to reliably run an assault army against well built competative armies.  Interceptors and NDK can do a good job of assaulting, but delivering Terminators into combat requires either a Landraider, a Raven, or a Deepstrike, all of which get you in combat by turn 3 or after most of the time.  At which point you are probably better off with 3 turns of Stirke/Purifier fire.       

 

I agree that Terminators are better in combat.  Combat is not as good as shooting though based on the mechanics of the game.  It can work, but you better build your list around it. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Just rather annoying because I have 12 terminators, but I never use them because I prefer more bodies, so I'm trying to find reasons to take them. But they only really shine in CC. But it's hard to get them there without shelling 250pts for a landraider that also uses up a heavy support slot :-\