IK Viper Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I would suggest using Paladins in a Landraider maybe. For the points, Paladins are really good because there is a lot less S8 in CC that can double them out. WS 5 and 2 wounds is nasty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 I actually used paladins for the first time the other day! But by the time they finally came from reserve (in a stormraven) the game end dice was rolled lmao. Although they are amazing for the points, their still expensive Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 What if our new codex allows landraiders add a dedicated transport for our terminators? (like they should be) Then you're still paying more than 200 points per superscorer on average, while strikes+transports start at less than 100 points per superscorer on average. Better than not having superscoring transports, but still not good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I actually used paladins for the first time the other day! But by the time they finally came from reserve (in a stormraven) the game end dice was rolled lmao. Although they are amazing for the points, their still expensive It was a big hit to Paladins when the old 5e "Wound Allocation Hijinks " ended with the publication of 6e, and continued in 7e. With no way to get better than 5++ from ranged attacks, they just don't have the resiliency to make it into most lists now. Would love to see something incorporated in a 7e codex to bring them back to prominence again. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 You can still get 'more' by dropping 10 GKT for 5 Paladin + Something else. ;) As long as you were going to take 10 GKT in the first place! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 As long as you were going to take 10 GKT in the first place! And there's the rub. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 /meh Who MSU's GKT these days? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 /meh Who MSU's GKT these days? people who play Theme>WAAC? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 When has MSU TDA ever been a 'theme'? And what happens if you're running a themed WAAC list? Now, all TDA. That's a 'theme'. Deathwing have been doing it since Plainsworld. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 If your theme is pure GKTs (does it matter whether it's 10 man squads, solodins, or 5 man squads?), and you choose not to dump it for something more competitive, then Theme>WAAC. If WAAC is your theme, then you don't have a theme, just mental problems. If you abandon your theme because it becomes less competitive, then maybe you never had a theme in the first place, just a WAAC mentality that dictated a certain list that looked thematic by accident. Case in point, I was running nine IG chimeras in 4th edition when they were extremely uncompetitive because my theme was a late 20th century US Army task-organized mech infantry company. IRL, that meant a company commander in a bradley IFV, a company executive officer in a bradley, two platoons of infantry in four bradleys each, and the third mech infantry platoon "traded" to a tank company for a platoon of four Abrams tanks. My version, under that codex, had the two platoons spot on, and a commander, but no executive officer (points restrictions) and only three tanks (FOC restrictions). That's a theme. And a pretty uncompetitive one in 4th edition. Then the 5th edition codex came out and shaved ~270 points off of my list, along with opening up the FOC to allow four russes. So I added a fourth tank (squadronning them in pairs, quite fluffy IRL to work with a wingman) and had points left for a battery of two griffons, a perfect analog of the tracked 120mm mortars that are a (4 vehicle) battalion asset IRL, but often assigned in pairs to individual companies...sticking with the theme as the last codex came out, but suddenly stupidly competitive! WAAC and theme are not incompatible, the question is which is more important to you. If you are a theme player, competitiveness comes and goes, but your list doesn't change dramatically when a new codex comes out. In my case, the 7th edition guard codex raised the price of chimeras, squeezing out the (dropped from the codex anyway) griffons, and two of the tanks moved to HQ (in the form of Pasquisher with LRBT wingman) while the other two tanks became singletons. Sticking with the theme, adapting to the new codex. More competitive than in 4th and 6th (in 6th, couldn't score inside the chimeras) , less competitive than in 5th. But not throwing out my models and buying nine wyverns, that would be a dickish WAAC move, just like spamming vendettas in 5th would have been. JMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 If your theme is pure GKTs (does it matter whether it's 10 man squads, solodins, or 5 man squads?) Depends on the theme. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 THEME!!! ;-P sorry everyone was saying it so felt left out xD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3728846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 /meh Who MSU's GKT these days? I still do. 27 TDA at 1500pts. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3729141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 In 6 units of 5? Or a couple of big units? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3729193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Mordrak+Ghosts+Libby = 7 models 2x 10-GKT = 20 models It only nets 8 WC before dice, but it is the core list I've played for literally years. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3729194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Full TDA lists are awesome. As is anything that uses Mordrak! <3 Mordrak. Edit; No reflection on jeff's list. But just to prove the case in point (and not utilising BB allies to the fullest either). Mordrak, Ghost Knight x5, Libby (not touching, same in both lists). Option 1; (Twice) GKT x10, Psycannon x2, Banner (475) Total: 950 points. Option 2; (Twice) Paladin x5, Psycannon x2 (315) (Twice) Strike x5, Psycannon (110) Total: 850 An extra 10 models, and extra 2 Psycannon, and 100 points left to play with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3729199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Isn't the benefit of option one that you can have up to 4 superscoring units? Paladins are an elite choice unless you bring Draigo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3729416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Well, despite my love of Tactic Dreadnought Armor, I do field DK/Interceptor Shunt lists, with more PA than TDA. It's just that our TDA are so Awesomely Gorgeous, I have to field them! SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3730095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 I've been using more interceptors lately, never used them before, but they seem like a must now with the maelstrom missions. I'm just not sure if it's worth giving them falchions to make them viable in CC. It makes them rather expensive Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3730778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The biggest issue for Terminators (and this has been a recurring issue since forever) is that they're overpriced. 40 points is not justifiable at all, especially when Riptides and other such long-range AP2 blasts (Fire Prisms have been doing this since forever) cremate you as easily as a model in 3+ armour. Terminators should be 30 points base. You just can't bring enough of them at any point level to make it work, without basically fielding nothing else. They're slow, they draw fire like nothing else (xenos have a pathogical hatred of them), you can jam them up with chaff in melee...and their invul save is mostly irrelevant unless you can buff it somehow. If you're gonna run Knight infantry, run Purifiers for a solid firebase and Interceptors for a fast assault element that can do backfield BBQ'ing. Our other PA squads are just garbage in this edition (Strikes get beaten by Henchmen for price and Interceptors for flexibility, Purgators lost the only thing making them even interesting with no more 'Astral Aim'). Paladins are still trash, thanks to Riptides and the dumb allocation rules retained from 6th. All multi-wound that isn't either T5 or Eternal Warrior is in the same jam, you put it down and pull it off as fast as 1-wound models thanks to S8 blasts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3733268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Don't write our army off that badly lol. We're still the best kitted out marine army out there, and technically our whole army is undercoated because of these upgrades, if you had a basic vanilla marine sergeant with an ap3 sword that's +15 points, plus 5 points for a storm bolter, plus like 20 points to upgrade to a psyker, so technically our army is extremely good value. It's just a shame that we don't have enough variety without henchmen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3733492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Don't write our army off that badly lol. We're still the best kitted out marine army out there, and technically our whole army is undercoated because of these upgrades, if you had a basic vanilla marine sergeant with an ap3 sword that's +15 points, plus 5 points for a storm bolter, plus like 20 points to upgrade to a psyker, so technically our army is extremely good value. Superior gear means nothing when you die the same as a 14pt Tactical grunt. Marines bring on average about 1/3rd more infantry than us (their support units are more varied as well and generally cheaper). I've tried Strikes and I find Purifiers and Interceptors bring more punch. Even with spamming Strikes, you still don't bring that many more Knights, especially once you factor in upgrade costs. It's just a shame that we don't have enough variety without henchmen. GW overcosts Marines, more news at 11 ;) . At least we have Henchmen, other Marine armies have to burn their Ally slot with IG to get enough infantry these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3733816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 At least we have Henchmen, other Marine armies have to burn their Ally slot with IG to get enough infantry these days. You talk as if we don't get more than one ally slot. There is no longer a restriction on 1 ally/detachment. Allies are just another type of detachment (like combined arms). The only restriction on the ally detachment these days is that it can't be the primary. Space marines can ally with themselves for added flexibility, then ally with AM for more scoring (and even more flexibility). Of course, if you need more slots, just take another CAD. The new method for building an army offers a lot flexibility, even if it does leave it open to abuse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3733893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Don't write our army off that badly lol. We're still the best kitted out marine army out there, and technically our whole army is undercoated because of these upgrades, if you had a basic vanilla marine sergeant with an ap3 sword that's +15 points, plus 5 points for a storm bolter, plus like 20 points to upgrade to a psyker, so technically our army is extremely good value.Superior gear means nothing when you die the same as a 14pt Tactical grunt. Marines bring on average about 1/3rd more infantry than us (their support units are more varied as well and generally cheaper). I agree with Jbat... again. Our PAGK come with a huge cost reduction in comparison of vanilla marines due to thier force weapons, storm bolters and blessings. Our terminators however are very similar to vanilla marines but don't have the option of storm shields and instead of a Sx2/AP2 weapon as standard they need to buy the NDH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3733992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Force Weapons really aren't that great. They aren't great in themselves, are worse in 7th with the Force Discipline, and as Power Wepaons aren't great becuase our Marines get 1A. I'd rather have a two Close Combat Weapons than a Force Weapon on my dudes. There are now multiple options in other Codexes to get Marines (usually with 2A base) with Storm Bolters for around 21-25 points. Ours aren't really that undercosted. And as RD say, die like any other 14 point Marine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292871-terminators-or-power-armour/page/2/#findComment-3734005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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