Mindstrike Missiles

[Adeptus]

How do these suckers work exactly? I've not used them much.

 

Any model under the template is hit. Hits can't be allocated by Look Out, Sir! Only wounds can be allocated in this way, correct?

 

So if I hit a model with the Mindstrike missile, and this model is a psyker, then he MUST take the Perils of the Warp test and cannot pass it on to another model in the unit?

 

How does this work when a psyker has joined a unit of psykers with the brotherhood of psykers (or sorcerers or whatever) rule? Does every model under the template take a test? Or does just one model take a test? Or does the Independent Character take a test AND the unit take a test?

[IndigoJack]

The best way to think of how perils works for BoP/BoS, is to think of the whole unit as one pysker. So if a mindstrike hits a unit with the BoP USR, then the unit only takes one perils, and the wound is randomly allocated. If the unit has a IC psyker in it as well, then both the unit and the IC take a perils. Now that ghost helms only work in the psychic phase, mindstrikes are a solid way of dealing with seerstar, as each warlock and farseer hit take a perils. And now that we can fire all four missiles at once, you could cripple the unit in just one turn of shooting.

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

Wow, the Stormraven just keeps getting better and better. I am so glad I decided to follow the Grey Knights forrum, learning so much about how you guys use your kit.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, not to mention our Raven has probably the most anti-infantry potential out of the others when you upgrade to psybolts. S5 hurricanes, S6 heavy bolter in the nose, and S7 assault cannon, all twin-linked :)

[GreyCrow]

Grey Knight Stormraven OP ! :p

 

On a more serious note, I've been on the receiving end of Mindstrike missiles with no Psykers and they aren't really great. Awesome against Psykers, but I'd go for Stormstrike any time of the day.

 

However, I've been on the receiving end of Psybolt Hurricane Bolters, and that hurt really, really bad :p S7 Assault Cannons are more anti-tank than anti-infantry (you'll wound on 2+ anything that wasn't T5 anyways with the regular Assault Cannon), great for using POTMS to target a Rhino with a 4 S7 shots !

[Exile Noctis]

 

On a more serious note, I've been on the receiving end of Mindstrike missiles with no Psykers and they aren't really great. Awesome against Psykers, but I'd go for Stormstrike any time of the day.

 

True that; however 7th will focus more on psykers so it's down to personal choice. I'd take Mindstrike though due to my local meta being psyker heavy. :P

[Grand Master Caloth]

How can we fire all four missiles at once?

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

Yeah? How? I thought only 2 missiles could be fired per shooting phase, and they count to the number of weapons fired in the turn.

[jeffersonian000]

7th has no limit on the number of missiles fired in one turn.

 

SJ

[march10k]

Mindstrike missiles are fail against seerstar.  They're gonna have invisibility up, hence snap shots only.  IIRC, mindstrike missiles are blast?  No joy there!

[hornywingythingy]

Mindstrike missiles are fail against seerstar. They're gonna have invisibility up, hence snap shots only. IIRC, mindstrike missiles are blast? No joy there!

You are playing gk, you should have enough dice to chuck to dispel invisibility.....

[IndigoJack]

Mindstrike missiles are fail against seerstar.  They're gonna have invisibility up, hence snap shots only.  IIRC, mindstrike missiles are blast?  No joy there!

This is of course assuming that first, they got invisibility, second, that they harnessed enough warp charges, and third, that it wasn't stopped by our own impressive warp charge pool. I think there are enough places that it can go wrong for them that I wouldn't use the word fail.

[march10k]

You obviously haven't faced the jetseer star of invisible doom. They generate a fair number of psychic dice, too, and with the number of psychers in the unit, it's not a question of whether they have invisibility, but rather how many of them have it. If they make it a priority (they will!), they certainly have enough charges to get the spell off twice with room to spare. And even with reinforced aegis, you're gonna have trouble blocking it once, let alone twice. I played a game with a single ML2 psycher a couple of weeks ago. My opponent was spamming nurgle daemons, generating 17 bonus charges per turn. 2+D6 casting dice held its own against 17+D6 dispel. Granted, he didn't get two chances to dispel, but the seerstar will have more than 2 base dice. It's puerile to argue that you're gonna overwhelm eldar psycher spam's blessings with dispel dice that need 6s. It would take serious intervention by Tz for the seerstar not to have invisibility, and significant luck for you to deny invisibility once a game, yet you insinuate that you'd do so routinely.

 

I would use the word fail if your plan for dealing with seerstar is mindstrike missiles. Good plans don't rely on the enemy having bad luck, or on you having good luck. Good plans have a buffer that allows them to work in spite of the dice gods favoring your opponent. If your plan says "he might not get invisibility, or he might not cast it successfully, or I might get a lucky deny roll," then your plan is fail.

[IndigoJack]

You obviously haven't faced the jetseer star of invisible doom.

I fail to see how my own observations against invisible seerstar make it obvious I've never faced it. It seems like you're making a baseless clain to discredit me.

 

They generate a fair number of psychic dice, too, and with the number of psychers in the unit, it's not a question of whether they have invisibility, but rather how many of them have it.

Unless they're playing multiple combined detachments, there are only two of them. That's only 6 rolls total for a 1 in 6 chance of getting the power on each dice. That's no where near a guarantee.

 

If they make it a priority (they will!), they certainly have enough charges to get the spell off twice with room to spare. And even with reinforced aegis, you're gonna have trouble blocking it once, let alone twice.

I agree that if they want the power off, the certainly can roll the dice to try and get it to work (save one for the ghost helm), but if both farseers are in the same unit, they only get to cast it on themselves once. And really, it only needs to not work once for mindstrike missiles to do their job.

 

I played a game with a single ML2 psycher a couple of weeks ago. My opponent was spamming nurgle daemons, generating 17 bonus charges per turn. 2+D6 casting dice held its own against 17+D6 dispel. Granted, he didn't get two chances to dispel, but the seerstar will have more than 2 base dice. It's puerile to argue that you're gonna overwhelm eldar psycher spam's blessings with dispel dice that need 6s. It would take serious intervention by Tz for the seerstar not to have invisibility, and significant luck for you to deny invisibility once a game, yet you insinuate that you'd do so routinely.

Never insinuated anything of the sort. And really, it's not that unlikely for them to not have it. It is far less likely to block it however, but them throwing a handful of dice to cast it means that they have less (or no) dice for other powers. I think I can live with that.

 

 

I would use the word fail if your plan for dealing with seerstar is mindstrike missiles. Good plans don't rely on the enemy having bad luck, or on you having good luck. Good plans have a buffer that allows them to work in spite of the dice gods favoring your opponent. If your plan says "he might not get invisibility, or he might not cast it successfully, or I might get a lucky deny roll," then your plan is fail.

By you're definition, seerstar is a fail from the start. And of course, assuming that I have only one answer to invisible seerstar is a bit of an assumption don't you think?

[march10k]

 

You obviously haven't faced the jetseer star of invisible doom.

I fail to see how my own observations against invisible seerstar make it obvious I've never faced it. It seems like you're making a baseless clain to discredit me.  Nobody who has faced it flippantly dismisses it the way you did.  That's how it's obvious.  Not trying to discredit you, just vehemently disagreeing with you.

 

They generate a fair number of psychic dice, too, and with the number of psychers in the unit, it's not a question of whether they have invisibility, but rather how many of them have it.

Unless they're playing multiple combined detachments, there are only two of them. That's only 6 rolls total for a 1 in 6 chance of getting the power on each dice. That's no where near a guarantee.  For each farseer, it's a 1/6+1/5+1/4 chance to get the spell, above 60% for each one.  Works out to around a 1/6 chance of not getting it.

 

If they make it a priority (they will!), they certainly have enough charges to get the spell off twice with room to spare. And even with reinforced aegis, you're gonna have trouble blocking it once, let alone twice.

I agree that if they want the power off, the certainly can roll the dice to try and get it to work (save one for the ghost helm), but if both farseers are in the same unit, they only get to cast it on themselves once. And really, it only needs to not work once for mindstrike missiles to do their job.  True, they only get to cast it once, but with 16+D6 warp charges to work with (ten warlocks and two farseers), you're not stopping it, and they'll have plenty of dice left for other stuff.  And Invisibility gets cast last.  First they do the other things, if you try to deny those, they recalculate how many dice they need to reserve for invisibility, keeping in mind the reinforced aegis effect.  With ten warlocks, they'll pretty much have every runes of battle power.

 

I played a game with a single ML2 psycher a couple of weeks ago. My opponent was spamming nurgle daemons, generating 17 bonus charges per turn. 2+D6 casting dice held its own against 17+D6 dispel. Granted, he didn't get two chances to dispel, but the seerstar will have more than 2 base dice. It's puerile to argue that you're gonna overwhelm eldar psycher spam's blessings with dispel dice that need 6s. It would take serious intervention by Tz for the seerstar not to have invisibility, and significant luck for you to deny invisibility once a game, yet you insinuate that you'd do so routinely.

Never insinuated anything of the sort. And really, it's not that unlikely for them to not have it. It is far less likely to block it however, but them throwing a handful of dice to cast it means that they have less (or no) dice for other powers. I think I can live with that.  You're right, you didn't insinuate anything.  You came right out and declared that the chance of them not getting the spell plus the chance of them failing to cast it plus the chance of you denying it is high enough that mindstrike missiles are a reasonable plan for dealing with them.  I'd say that the chance of failing to cast the spell plus the chance of denying it (assuming ten casting dice?  Why not, if it were me and you were not "wasting" deny dice on the other stuff that I cast first, I'd reserve ten dice for invisibility) are less than one percent combined...but we'll be generous and bump it a little higher. The chance of neither farseer having invisibility is 14%, so we'll say the aggregate chance of them not being invisible is 1/6. I would say that in the face of those odds, mindstrike missiles are a poor plan.  I would call that "that unlikely."  "Less or no" dice for other powers reinforces my belief that you don't know jetseerstar.  16+D6.  How many denial dice are you rocking?  If they throw ten dice at invisibility, on average you need thirty to stop it.  That still leaves them 5+D6 (they'll need one for the perils) for other stuff.  And if you start trying to deny the lesser powers, your warp charge pool dwindles and the number dice I need to reserve for an irresistible casting of invisibility goes down, so I can cast even more of the smaller stuff.

 

I would use the word fail if your plan for dealing with seerstar is mindstrike missiles. Good plans don't rely on the enemy having bad luck, or on you having good luck. Good plans have a buffer that allows them to work in spite of the dice gods favoring your opponent. If your plan says "he might not get invisibility, or he might not cast it successfully, or I might get a lucky deny roll," then your plan is fail.

By you're definition, seerstar is a fail from the start. And of course, assuming that I have only one answer to invisible seerstar is a bit of an assumption don't you think?

 

 

No, not every plan to counter seerstar is fail.  If they don't have the baron along, they can be tied down in melee.  If they haven't taken any singing spears, AV12 walkers work well, since S3 armorbane can hurt, but needs a nine on 2D6 to glance.  Torrenting works, although it's less effective if they're buffed to 2+ armor.  Hammer of wrath isn't affected by invisibility, nor is thunderblitz.  Those are just a few things off the top of my head.  Some of them depend on the specific seerstar build, none of them rely on the seerstar not being invisible.  I'm not saying there are no ways to handle seerstar.  I'm saying that any answer to seerstar that only works when they aren't invisible is fail.  And When/where did I assume that you didn't have other answers?   I did say "if mindstrikes are your only answer,"  but that's a far cry from saying that they are your only answer.  By the way, what are your other ways of dealing with them?

[IndigoJack]

I apologize if I came across as flippant, but you made it sound as if invisibility was guarantee. I can assure you from my experience, it is not. Let's run with you're example of 10 dice. On average, that's going to be 4-6 successes (because we live in the real world, and standard deviation is a thing). And I don't know about you're GKs, but I'm generally rocking about 20 WC dice. And if you count re-rolls from reinforced aegis, that's a crap ton of chances to get some 6s. And none of this is even considering that the 4+ is the most fickle dice roll conceived by fate. Someone only getting three successes for invisibility wouldn't surprise me in the least. These are the moments we capitalize on. It only has to not work once for mindstrikes to do their thing.

 

How do I deal with them? Ignore them mostly. Especially the invisible ones. Now that they can't contest objectives with troops on them, they're far less scary. They've never been particularly destructive, and what made them so frustrating in 6th was their late game contesting. If I really have to deal with them, I have a massive amount of twin-linked shooting, all of it wounding on 2s. If protect is up (and to a lesser extent, conceal), well, maybe I'll kill one? If those powers aren't up, they're looking at a few causalities.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

True, they only get to cast it once, but with 16+D6 warp charges to work with (ten warlocks and two farseers), you're not stopping it

 

You're doing 7th edition GK Psychic Phase wrong if you're not taking at least 12 Warp Charges form your Troops slots alone. ;)

 

Add in some Dread to use thier Reinforced Aegis off, some Inquisitors, more C:I Psykers, and you're golden. ;)

 

 

 

I played a game with a single ML2 psycher a couple of weeks ago

 

No wonder you lost out badly in the Psychic Phase! :P

[Captain Coolpants]

Seerstar /invisibility aside. Mindstrike missiles are finally worth taking this edition. Last edition I envied the normal missile loads. Now I'm happy with it! Basically an auto wound on anything plus the actual hit of the blast. The only downside is if the enemy rolls a 6 on the perils table and doesn't suffer a wound and gets buffed to the max for a turn xD

 

But could also roll a 1,and your little strength 4 ap nothing blast could potentially kill 7 models by causing 6 strength 6 ap1 hits on top of the first perils :-P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Invisibility' is broken as hell, but its not automatically on every turn. Knights have zero trouble matching Eldar in the warp charge generation department, most of our normal lists generate 12-14 base without even trying, and we can cheese 20+ with certain Henchmen builds. 

 

Mindstrikes are fine against ScreamerStar and for generally nuking random psykers in units. Free Perils is fantastic, it's unreplicable anywhere else in 40k, and Psykers have never been more annoying or powerful. 

[IndigoJack]

'Invisibility' is broken as hell, but its not automatically on every turn. Knights have zero trouble matching Eldar in the warp charge generation department, most of our normal lists generate 12-14 base without even trying, and we can cheese 20+ with certain Henchmen builds.

Mindstrikes are fine against ScreamerStar and for generally nuking random psykers in units.

Yup. Invisible seerstar aside, mindstrikes are fantastic anti-psyker.

Free Perils is fantastic, it's unreplicable anywhere else in 40k, and Psykers have never been more annoying or powerful.

Almost unreplicable. I think someone forgot about the condemnor boltgun

[Captain Coolpants]

But the condemnor boltgun is 1 use only, that can be' look out sir'd and if it misses then I'd cry haha

[Ozshock]

not sure if you guys mentioned it...

 

but against the seerstar, if all the psykers are in one group, then only 1 psyker can try to cast invis...there is a rule under the psychic phase section of the rulebook that says no unit can cast the same power twice...also stops us from trying to get hammerhand off from different sources

 

EG:  strike/puri/int squad is joined by GM lvl1/Lib/wth...only one of these sources can cast hammerhand...if one fails then bad luck im afraid

as far as mindstrike missiles go...they will be a boon to whoever uses them...psykers will be around quite commonly during this edition

[Gentlemanloser]

There's also the Psi-shock orbital bombardment.

[Ozshock]

orbital bombardment almost never hits the target you need...it would however be AWESOME against that daemon army...scatter anywhere you like and hit 10+ psykers...BOOM KERSPLAT XD

 

as far as the wounds on a Brotherhood of Psykers squad...wouldnt you have to roll the perils table for each HIT caused? say there are 3 GKSS under the template...wouldnt each marine take a perils roll? and if not...why? they are ALL psykers, same as a daemon squad...or the Jetseer council

 

the mindstrike missile ruling on our codex states "any psyker hit suffers a perils of the warp"...and each individual guy is a psyker, doesnt matter is the squad is brotherhood does it?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, Brotherhood rule kicks in and the Perils hits one memebr of the Squad only.