A Chaos Army with no Hippies? Do I have to like Daemons?

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

 

Night Lords look cool too. I don't know about the idea of them being cowards though?

 

 

 

If you're interested in them I recommend ADB's Night Lords series, stellar books that gives a nice insight in how they CAN think and operate (they are after all splintered into a multitude of warbands that differ from each other) or check out any of the 40k wikis that have articles about them.

I second this, I picked it up last week (after the thread about how awesome Word Bearers trilogy is) in preparation for my summer holidays. I couldn't wait till school holidays & I'm currently about 50 pages in, it's early days but I'm absolutely loving it so far. I have high hopes for this trilogy.

[TheDevourer]

The trilogy is epic... I must have read all the night lord novels 5 times now

 

I would have to call them  the best 40k novels full-stop.

[Prot]

That's some great info guys. Night Lords are tempting for me because I've never done more than a few figs. The scheme is great too.

 

As far as the novels you guys give them great praise and I appreciate that since most of my 'good' armies came from great fiction for motivation.

 

Red Corsairs are in those novels too correct? Or one of them?

 

I imagine once ADB is making Black Legion novels those will steal the stellar claims away from the Night Lords. ;)

 

There isn't much for Crimson Slaughter out there, but their Supplement is juicy, and different.

 

I really have to decide on this.... a few really good options here. Thanks for giving me some insight.

[Yogi]

If novels matter, than if I were you I would go for BL or NL. But if you haven't read the soul hunter trilogy you really should/could because the protagonist Talos is really dismissive of "Space hippies", in fact he has a similar view point to your initial posts desire. 

 

Red corsair feature reasonably heavy in Blood Reaver IIRC. 

 

At the same time Mcneill's twitter talks about the pitfalls of spelling alpharius. So I gather we can expect Alpha legion fiction from him, most likely HH though.

[Dallas Drake]

I would have to call them the best 40k novels full-stop.

Better than Eisenhorn/Ravener and Gaunts Ghosts? I am intrigued now (and also damn glad a picked it up!).

[TheDevourer]

i would have to say yes, buuuuut that would probably have something to do with me liking chaos alot more than imperial lore. Although eisenhorn and ravenor aswell as gaunts ghosts are epic aswell 

[Forté]

Warband or Renegades are options too. Come up with your own. They could have been part of a Legion once but over time and lack of contact with the breast of the Legion has led to them developing their own identity.

 

Just throwing that in there.

[Prot]

I agree that making up your own stuff can be fun, however I admit being a sucker for the original Legions (That being said Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs do not fit in that category.)

 

I've been thinking this over and while I'm impressed with the Night Lords color scheme and the idea of playing a fast moving army (remember when they used to get extra fast attack? ). The downfalls of Night Lords for me seem to be their limitation of being space thugs. I could have this wrong, but from the outside looking in, do they have any place attacking Terra? Or would they simply be satisfied to pillage the worlds left behind by Abaddon or some other 'organized' warlord?

 

Black Legion in all honesty do fit the description. Every time I've gone to paint a black army the first... 500 pts has been a nightmare until I get rolling. I mean you have to enjoy the hobby side (to be honest it's what drew me to Chaos all those years ago).

 

Abe seems almost unplayable in competitive games.... am I wrong? They DO have something very cool going for them and that's the Chosen troops but you probably can't afford more than one unit of these in a list I'm assuming?

 

BTW: no one answered my question about the Sorc HQ. Is it working in 7th? is it better or worse (last memories of...)?

 

Red Corairs is what I started with in 5th. We all struggled at the time to figure out the codex back then. Then the 6th version came out and I just swapped back to IW. Red Corsairs basically represent the 5th edition to me.

 

Crimson Slaughter. No one is playing these guys... and very few have even started them. Kranon seems very playable as does the Divination Sorc. Originally when seventh came out I thought these guys looked even better with Daemon Summoning but since playing 7th, I've discovered it's pretty hard to pull off and I'm not a fan of Space Hippies.

 

And I realize that -any- legion can be portrayed how I wish to play them. However a few really stand out to me (the ones above).

[Deadman Wade]

IIRC in Soul Hunter trilogy at least some Night Lords participated in battle for Terra, Malcharion killed several loyalist champions, and raptors claim to be the first on palace walls. But NLs are always shown as those who run away from any mahor engagement, not exactly behavior that most people would want from astartes :D

As for novels, ADB's trilogy is one of the best 40k books I've read. Some would say that Abnett's books are better, but I don't like them, too dry and passionless IMO.

 

Sorcerer is quite good, especially with biomancy of telephaty, he's not too expensive and generally works well, but psychic-heavy armies can shut him down - I've played a few games against Grey Knights and their amount of psychic charges was enough to deny almost all my powers.

[Sception]

I've been thinking this over and while I'm impressed with the Night Lords color scheme and the idea of playing a fast moving army (remember when they used to get extra fast attack? ). The downfalls of Night Lords for me seem to be their limitation of being space thugs. I could have this wrong, but from the outside looking in, do they have any place attacking Terra? Or would they simply be satisfied to pillage the worlds left behind by Abaddon or some other 'organized' warlord?

 

The night lords are a very diverse bunch. They were always a pretty fractious legion by nature, and after their primarch died, the main thing holding them together was gone. Some are just thugs and bullies. Some are full bore chaos worshippers. Some are half daemonic monstrosities that literally feed on fear. Many are pirates and mercenaries alternately raiding or hiring their services out to other chaos factions. And some are still committed to the long war, building factions and raiding imperial worlds to sow dissent, damage supply lines, and assassinate leaders, melting back into the shadows before the Imperium can respond to their attacks - dealing the maximum damage with the minimum losses in return, which is how most legions have to operate, since the forces of chaos simply do not have the Imperium's resources or manpower.

 

Many of those still dedicated to the fight against the Imperium, including at least one named daemon prince, have joined the Black Legion, but others fight the long war in night lords colors. The point is that there's a wide variety from warband to warband, and without any sort of unifying or organizing body above the warband level, your night lords force is characterized primarily by the attitudes and ambitions of whatever personal warlord you come up with for them.

 

 

Black Legion in all honesty do fit the description. Every time I've gone to paint a black army the first... 500 pts has been a nightmare until I get rolling. I mean you have to enjoy the hobby side (to be honest it's what drew me to Chaos all those years ago).

 

Abe seems almost unplayable in competitive games.... am I wrong? They DO have something very cool going for them and that's the Chosen troops but you probably can't afford more than one unit of these in a list I'm assuming?

 

Keep in mind that the supplement rules are completely optional. It's perfectly acceptable to construct a black legion army out of the parent book. Heck, the rules of the parent book are in direct contradiction to how much of the black is characterized. Abaddon accepts anyone who will swear fealty to him and enmity to the Imperium, they have the largest legion, and that includes the most raw recruits. The vets only requirement, honestly, really doesn't make sense for them.

 

I prefer to think of the supplement as characterizing not the entire legion, but rather only the core warbands of abadon's closest warlords, forces mainly consisting of sons of horus vets, while the bulk of the legion are generic chaos marine warbands run out of the generic chaos marine codex that have taken the black.

 

But in general, the vet tax isn't that bad on basic CSMs and HQs. It becomes a problem if you want to field chosen or terminators, though, which is a shame because both of those units are supposed to be iconic of the legion, but gripes about the stupid pricing structure of the vets upgrade is getting into general codex complaint territory, so.... *shrug*.

 

 

BTW: no one answered my question about the Sorc HQ. Is it working in 7th? is it better or worse (last memories of...)?

 

I don't have enough experience of 7th to say. Psychic powers are strong, but it's much harder to pull them off. Psyker heavy strategies are just very unreliable, as you've already discovered. If you do take a psyker, we have access to biomancy and telepathy, both are reasonably good. Always take the spell familiar. If playing black legion, then yes, the last memory is good. The nova isn't really better (which makes it worse, because it's less reliable), but the +1 mastery level on the sorcerer is quite worth it for the extra die alone. If playing crimson slaughter, prophet of the voices is good for running malefic, but you've already gone down that path and didn't much care for it.

 

 

Crimson Slaughter. No one is playing these guys... and very few have even started them. Kranon seems very playable as does the Divination Sorc. Originally when seventh came out I thought these guys looked even better with Daemon Summoning but since playing 7th, I've discovered it's pretty hard to pull off and I'm not a fan of Space Hippies.

 

Kranon's gear is good... I'm not sure I'd say Kranon is. Kranon is unmarked and on foot, his gear is better on someone with a mark of nurgle or tzeentch on a bike or disk.

[Dallas Drake]

Sorcerer HQ is totally doable. So much so that I run two now, both Crimson Slaughter (one with PoTV or naked if I don't want to use my Possessed & one with Balestar - both ML3 with spell familiars). I run the two and just have any cult troops I bring (which is not often) as elites (they only really lose objective secured). I like Lords but right now I'm enjoying Sorcerers more, mostly because melee isn't easy or good and force multipliers are more important.

 

If you magnetise the arm of your HQ you can swap 'force axe' for what ever your Lord has and use the same model for both. Experiment and see what you prefer.

 

Dallas

[Prot]

Thanks Malisteen.

 

I've been playing a lot of seventh and agree the psychic phase sure ain't what she used to be. Everything is tougher.... and subject to a few armies with immense canceling abilities. I was hoping the Black Legion sorc (last memories) was going to be a killer. Someone told me the way Nova's worked made it better, but I guess he was mistaken.

 

Sorcerer HQ is totally doable. So much so that I run two now, both Crimson Slaughter (one with PoTV or naked if I don't want to use my Possessed & one with Balestar - both ML3 with spell familiars). I run the two and just have any cult troops I bring (which is not often) as elites (they only really lose objective secured). I like Lords but right now I'm enjoying Sorcerers more, mostly because melee isn't easy or good and force multipliers are more important.

If you magnetise the arm of your HQ you can swap 'force axe' for what ever your Lord has and use the same model for both. Experiment and see what you prefer.

Dallas

 

Very good info Dallas thank you. I was working on a new Crimson Slaughter Sorc (the latest model, which is not bad.) and wasn't keen on running him with Malefic .... I was even thinking of pairing him with a second, Terminator Sorc.

 

The possessed were my original draw to CS, but it became the sorc after a while. I only played about 3 games with them though.... I never did test even using Divination with multi Oblits, or Forgefiends (trying to work around that BS3).

 

I'm thinking of putting together a test list and if it works out I'll hopefully start a thread on re-building my Chaos forces. I'd really like to narrow it down first.

 

++EDIT++

Just to add a question as I ponder things. Now I realize that I can take anything legal the codex allows but if you were building a Night Lords force, what do you think an appropriate HQ would be. Trying to retain a balance between the 'feel' of the army with trying to remain competitive?

 

For Black Legion I see using Abe, or a Sorc in lower point games. Chosen a must (at least one squad?)

 

For Crimson Slaughter A sorc is perhaps the best option in this supplement? But Kranon (as mentioned) has some great gear.

[Sception]

For night lords I'd go with one of:

 

Belakor - shroud, undivided, fear based, telepathy, a good fit overall, whether counts as or just as himself.

 

Bikelord - however you want to equip him, the bike makes him night lordsish enough

 

Bikesorc with telepathy (feels more night lordsish than biomancy).

 

nurgle prince with mace (perhaps refluffing nurgle's shroud as a cloud of darkness)

 

 

The upside is that these are our better HQ builds in general, so you can go with a night lordsy flavor and still be playing decent HQs (or as decent as we get, really).  The downside is that since these are our better HQs, people tend to run them regardless of theme, so while 'shrouded batwinged daemon prince' and 'chaos marine commander on bike' are theoretically thematic choices for you, they won't exactly help a night lords force stand out from other CSM armies in practice.

 

You could try a jump pack lord in raptors or warp talons.  It's not exactly more fitting for night lords than bikes, but it's also not something CSM players who aren't running night lords would generally do.  Downside there is that other CSM forces don't do that because it's basically just the exact same thing as running bikes, only much worse.

[Dallas Drake]

Everything Mal said x2.

 

Telepathy fits nicely, whilst it's a shame they decided to tamper with Terrify its still one of the strongest psyker options (on par with Divination).

 

The bike is a strong option and you can go mad with the conversion. I wasn't happy with the size and options (tiny legs) available for my biker Lord/Sorcerer so I cut up Raptors legs and added the top part of the Champion model, a touch of greenstuff and some careful pinning and hey presto, looks like more than just a 'regular biker'.

 

He's still WIP as he needs detail and highlights, but I took a snap for you.

 

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr353/jonas1917/Mobile%20Uploads/image-1.jpg

 

Dallas

[Prot]

Wow.... just when I was going to give up. That is truly inspiring. 

 

So that's your Sorc? Are you playing just undivided then or Crimson Slaughter? (Since you aren't using Divination?)

 

Looks fantastic... thanks a lot for posting that.

[Shuggnuggath]

That old Raptor you painted looks pretty sweet.

 

If I was doing Night Lords I would theme it around a biker gang, backed up by some squads in rhinos ect.

You could always run Night Lords using the Crimson Slaughter codex, some of the rules (fear causing) would fit them pretty well (not like GW is doing a NL one anytime soon).

 

The other beauty of a non daemonic NL army is you could use it for 30K without having to change anything. Even their colour scheme is pretty much the same :)

[Dallas Drake]

Wow.... just when I was going to give up. That is truly inspiring.

 

So that's your Sorc? Are you playing just undivided then or Crimson Slaughter? (Since you aren't using Divination?)

 

Looks fantastic... thanks a lot for posting that.

His arm is magnetised so I can switch between sword and axe. Sometimes he's my Lord, depends how I feel. My other Sorcerer is in the background on the left - Chosen conversion.

 

I always run Crimson Slaughter, If I take 2 Sorcerers I switch between Divination, Telepathy and Malefic. Honestly, I think Divination & Telepathy are the best, both have a solid Primaris and both have some game changing powers (Invisibility, Forewarning, Shrouding). I'm a fan of Malefic but to be honest I'm not getting a great deal out of it, Cursed Earth is great for Daemons like Possessed or Oblits but Summoning is 3WC and I find that whatever Deep Strikes in just dies to a stiff breeze. Even Possession has been lacklustre for me, (I only own a Bloodthirster Forgeworld conversion - hate the GW models) since Deep Striking a FMC is utterly pointless. I'm actually allying in Daemons soon so I can start them on the board, just got to paint 20 Daemonettes.

 

All in all, I'd say Telepathy is one of the best options to go for and it fits well with your theme. You don't need PoTV or Balestar, which keeps your Sorcerer affordable. Just go: bike, ML3, spell familiar.

 

PS. Glad I've inspired you :)

[Sception]

I was working on something similar for a bike lord.  It remains only half converted, but in its unfinished state, it might be useful for seeing how the bits fit together:

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/Black%20Legion/BikeLord01.jpg

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Malisteen/Black%20Legion/BikeLord03.jpg

[Prot]

Malisteen, that is awesome. Really cool rider conversion. I had no idea that model was so good for riding a bike you guys have really pulled it off nicely.

Wow.... just when I was going to give up. That is truly inspiring.

So that's your Sorc? Are you playing just undivided then or Crimson Slaughter? (Since you aren't using Divination?)

Looks fantastic... thanks a lot for posting that.

His arm is magnetised so I can switch between sword and axe. Sometimes he's my Lord, depends how I feel. My other Sorcerer is in the background on the left - Chosen conversion.

I always run Crimson Slaughter, If I take 2 Sorcerers I switch between Divination, Telepathy and Malefic. Honestly, I think Divination & Telepathy are the best, both have a solid Primaris and both have some game changing powers (Invisibility, Forewarning, Shrouding). I'm a fan of Malefic but to be honest I'm not getting a great deal out of it, Cursed Earth is great for Daemons like Possessed or Oblits but Summoning is 3WC and I find that whatever Deep Strikes in just dies to a stiff breeze. Even Possession has been lacklustre for me, (I only own a Bloodthirster Forgeworld conversion - hate the GW models) since Deep Striking a FMC is utterly pointless. I'm actually allying in Daemons soon so I can start them on the board, just got to paint 20 Daemonettes.

All in all, I'd say Telepathy is one of the best options to go for and it fits well with your theme. You don't need PoTV or Balestar, which keeps your Sorcerer affordable. Just go: bike, ML3, spell familiar.

PS. Glad I've inspired you

Thanks for this. In 7th I dabbled with Malefic and just think it was overrated from the gate when people were throwing their hands up in the air saying it was the I win button for a few armies. I've seen (with other armies) just how hard it is to pull off anything of note in the Psychic phase without killing yourself... there's a lot of uncertainty there now.

I gotta say for the first time after seeing your bikes I feel like a Night Lords Lord/Sorc on a bike is a possibility... not that I never played HQ on bikes just I didn't feel inspired by the idea. I'm not killing off my Crimson Slaughter but at this point it wouldn't be too hard for me to switch over.

In the back of my mind one advantage with the Crimson Slaughter is I'm also a huge World Eaters fan and never sold any off.... and Crimson Slaughter support units are pretty identical to my Khorne theme and *if* we ever saw a World Eater supplement, it would be a very easy transition for me.

Regardless, I can see doing either army now. (Raptor models do look very cool though too... I realize everyone rags on them.. but Raptors and Warp Talons look cool)

[Sception]

I don't think anyone rags on the raptor models.  Well, apart from a few who don't like the lightning trim on the shins, which is admittedly a little much.  Apart from that, though, the models are fantastic.  People rag on the rules, and with some reason, since raptors are very similar in battlefield role to bikes, only bikes do almost all of the same things considerably better, yet only cost a few more points a model.  Also, if you like vets for thematic reasons, it gets worse, because raptors pay two points a model for vets for some ridiculously stupid reason, while bikes only pay one.

 

That said, raptors, like a lot of our units, aren't terrible, just a bit overpriced.  It's just harder to ignore on them, because they're sitting next to a unit entry that is so similar, yet not overpriced.  You can run raptors, just be aware that they're very fragile.  The main issue you'll run into is that they need a lot of line of sight blocking terrain to skulk around - cover isn't good enough for them - and if you don't have that they'll just melt under small arms fire, far more so than bikes which get +1 toughness for, again, hardly any more points at all.  It.  Of course, you could buy MoN for the raptors, then they're the same toughness for the same cost... but the bikes are faster, and have better shooting, and cheaper vets, and more reliable hammer of wrath (unless 7e changed that)....

 

Anyway, using raptors - hug los blocking terrain, that's about it.  Take them in small units with max specials to hunt whatever it is those specials are good against (tanks for meltas, light infantry for flamers, heavy infantry with plasma) - such units can even risk deep strike if there's no well covered approaches on the table.  Or take them in larger units, probably with meltaguns, as melee retinues for a jump character, or possibly a tzeentch character on disk.

 

 

As for warp talons - if you play on boards with a lot of line of sight blocking terrain, and not a lot of defensible area terrain which would allow enemies to strike first if assaulted, and you play against a lot of 3+ save armies, but said armies don't run drop pods or bikes, then warp talons can be worth running in small squads, potentially with the mark of slaanesh.  If any of that doesn't apply, you really don't want to run them.  If there's not much los blocking terrain, then they'll get gunned down by small arms before getting anywhere close, since they die like basic CSMs but cost like terminators.  If there's a lot of defensible terrain, then their lack of grenades means you're going to face overwatch AND the enemy attacks before you get to swing, and considering that you'll tend to want to run them in small units means that losing even one or two before making your attacks is a big deal.  If the opponent isn't running meq units, then they're either nigh useless (ie, vs. anything with a 2+ save or vehicles) or wasted points on overkill (vs. blobs or orks - and in those cases you might even get overpowered by weight of numbers).  3+ save armies though frequently run drop pods and bikes, both of which can get around the terrain you're hugging to blast your overpriced jump units in the shooting phase where they're most vulnerable.

 

So that's a lot of iffs.  But if those ifs apply, they can make a decent melee hunter or skulking counter attack sort of unit.  You can also try to run them with daemon allies as the central unit of a grimoire based death star...  but that's very unreliable, and they're worse in that role than screamers.

 

Just whatever you do, don't deep strike them.

[Prot]

Okay last night while contemplating this possible project I came across some stuff.... a fair amount of it.

Some of it was staggering.... I couldn't believe some stuff I bought and haven't seen in a while. I took pics of about... half of it because I just sat there wondering what the heck to do next. lol

First off these guys have been repainted ONCE. I am willing to airbrush the black areas ONCE more. (Or else paint will be too thick). I got them back to black but now I think they will be crimson red, or NL blue..... Not sure. I have one unnassembled Forgefiend/Maulerfiend next. Not sure which to put togther????

Next...

+++I think I took a picture of these guys once before..... once I sold all my Iron Warriors, I started on a 'new' edition of them using Iron Hands bitz that I had left from a failed project.

+++These are Chosen (mostly). I found a pile of them I bought. 6 Packs of chosen and a new Helbrute from DV!!!! Ugh so much stuff.

+++ I found some Alpha Legion test pics. Honestly I couldn't recreate this color if I tried.... Also found a ton of shoulder pads and an Alpha FW Dread!!

+++This is kind of interesting. I found Doom Rider's bike here along with a mish mash of beat up bikes missing weapons and with swapped heads.. ugh. (Doom Rider's torso is shown in a different picture sitting on a rhino)

+++Oh the Termies I found... I found about 5 half finished Oblits (metal), about 5 Forgeworld World Eater Termies including the special character (front right). I also found 2 more boxes of Termies. (What was I thinking?) In looking for the termies I found most of my current World Eaters which I have pictured. I also found enough heads and shoulder pads from forgeworld to do another 10 Berzerkers.... yeeesh.

Almost forgot this....

+++Lot's of forgeworld stuff mostly for WE and AL. Doomrider sits atop a rhino.

So as you can see i have a lot of junk. Not pictured are about 4 rhino's.... a IW Pred, a red chaos Landraider with WE doors.....

So I can probably start just about anything I want. Too bad so much of it is already WIP.

I think it's safe to say I need to make a decision before buying anything else. lol

[incinerator950]

Nice stuff Prot.

[Dallas Drake]

@Malisteen

Great minds eh Mal! His body is perfect, great for a Lord on Jugger conversion too.

 

@Prot

Choose a legion/warband then undercoat all of it in that colour using Army Painter or similar. Once you've got a theme it'll feel less daunting... Hopefully!!

 

Edit: Also, yeah I do think Malefic is over-rated. Especially in CSM lists. I've only used it a few times but each time I use Summoning my opponent just wipes my squads out, Bloodletters and Daemonettes (the only Daemon troops I have) are S3 with a 5++, they die to literally the crappest shooting. So I'm not really feeling that route, especially since WC3 is dangerous, even with a Spell Familiar.

[Tenebris]

I see this discussion an awful lot of times, people ditching chaos space marines in a fit of rage and annoyance only to take them up again after the seething embers of despair have cooled down. I agree I am one of those people too. Since the advent of our codex in 2012 I have sold three CSM armies, World Eaters, Emperor's Children and now it seems my Alpha Legion is next in line (though mostly in order to corrupt a new generation of 40k players). At this stage it is so hard to focus on a single traitor legion for in no way one can play it as the background demands it, alas we of Chaos often suffer from the so called syndrome of "altoholism" since we often enough search for new identities to field on the tables of war. 

 

Part of this process is also the less constant flux of background, novels and generic fluff which always inducts something new and it is not even remotely a streamlined process as the one of the space marines, which keep their identity always constant, with brief advances in the fluff here and there. While the books like Path of X which focus on exploring the entirety of a faction (Eldar in this case) we of Chaos are at the random mercy of many authors, of which only one or two somehow constant, hence this is mirrored in our constantly shifting armies, since we jump on everything that gives our faction a bit of identity and flair. 

 

In this case, what I would recommend is to ditch all projects, ditch all models and ditch all the background you have envisioned, and start in the "tabula rasa" mode, as a blank slate. Identify a legion, read all the material on this legion, if it inspires you begin to envision this legion on tabletop, if not, then move onto the next legion. Meanwhile buy slowly and steady your collection, simply fill out your collection with every entry in our codex and just assemble and basecoat them. But while you study the fluff you work and build your collection of models. Initially keep your models free of conversions, then move onto the legion specific kits from FW or GW if you are really set on an army.

 

What will this allow you to do? Simple, you will have an enviable collection of models which will allow you to test all kinds of army lists and configurations as well as it will allow you to play safely in the long turn since the advent of formations (X units with X special rules) will be inevitable. If new kits appear, don't buy a whole collection of them but only those minimum required to create the codex entry unit. For example, one kit for Raptors and another for the Warp Talons.

 

Slowly and steady as you read more and play more you will identify a legion to your liking and here you can begin to paint. This is the only stage of your project where you should actually put the brush on the model, when you are certain what you want.

 

In order to reap the full benefit of the books "Undivided" legions are the best, but cult legions are much more in character and scope.

 

 

As for the question on daemons and allies. Well I never saw them as a separate book, for me they are always Chaos, and hopefully one day we will have official Chaos Knights and Traitor Guard. I understand that many lists hog on the daemons for victory but I usually field them mostly as part of the narrative. My commander has several pacts with the daemons, he does not venerate them, does not cooperate with them, he uses them as he would use every subordinate under his command. Same goes for the other factions which can be included Come the Apocalypse, if my hero has a veritable reason to have them at his side I will include one of the said units in the army list, otherwise I wont.

 

Now most legions, if not all, loathe daemons. They venerate the Chaos Gods but they also see the daemons as inferior creatures, as pawns in the Great Game, as disposable troops and useful reinforcements at the expense of some sacrifices. Strategically speaking every wise Chaos Lord would use daemons, if for that he would use everything and everyone, to get the job done and spare some of his quality troops so the question is mostly if it fits the narrative.

 

I usually like to field armies steeped in the confines of our "common sense" background. Do I have a Sorcerer in the army, then I would have some of his summoned daemons in my ranks too, afterall no sorcerer worth his salt would not have several daemonic pacts. Do I expect to face astartes, then it is astartes in my ranks, I have 10k, years of bitterness and rage to vent on my former brothers... and so on. The thing with Chaos, especially with the new Unbound mechanic is that we can tailor armies as per background, not as per legion specific background, but as our forces would actually behave on the real battlefied.

 

So actually everything goes, for no traitor legion worth its name would not field a myriad of different units and formations. There is no strict need for daemons, those can be ghosts, mindwiped slaves, Dark Mechanicus creations, chaos xenoforms and so on. In the end what I think the best bargain is to simply play either Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion. The rules in our actual codex are somehow reminiscent of the WB/BL/IW tactics.

 

I would go with Black Legion/Word Bearers for a long term collection. They are flexible enough in concept that everything goes. Sadly there is too few known on the Alpha Legion to base upon it a project and the Iron Warriors and the Night Lords both share the third place but they require a hefty load of conversion bitz to make it look good.    

[incinerator950]

Unfortunately I consider Demons a seperate variety of Chaos. That's mainly because I don't want to make an allied list out of necessity, don't want to buy multiple codexes, and despite the narrative, I don't want to feed a problem. It comes off negative, but I'm in the same gunship as Prot. Excluding I barely have any modmodelsnow that to thirds of mine are lost. So while it's great that I can start over, I can't decide on how to build because of restraints.

 

Oh and guys, I'm digging those Asp bikers.