CSM Upgraded in 7th?

[Smurfalypse]

I have played 14 games of 7th so far and I must say that the more I get the hang of it the stronger CSM seem to be. I do ally with Daemons but I think CSM make a better primary detachment right now than Daemons. Being able to take four Heralds as your single ally HQ slot is money, this can be used to up your Warp Charge by huge amounts, or add in a guy who will buff a unit he is in with his Loci, basically whatever you need them to be they will be for ya.

 

As I play more games I feel like I am starting to dominate harder than at any point in 6th ed. I struggle to win less often now and it no longer feels like I have one hand tied behind my back. Went to a local RTT a few weekends ago and I did pretty well though I did have a single loss. I ran a FMC list that just jumped 12" up the table and assaulted when it had the chance. A Knight list was down to two Knights (out of five) and the second to last one blew up and took out x3 of my MCs with it (three rolls of a 6 in a row removed them all :P), while he did get retardedly lucky with that, I managed dominated my other games (and the one against the Knights as I had lost zero models until that explosion took out three of my four MCs). In my practice games I am seeing the same results, people are getting outright destroyed against my assault oriented armies. 

 

Wondering if others are noticing this trend as well?

[Prot]

If MC's are monstrous creatures, then it sounds like most of your success revolved around those?

 

I personally can't speak for CSM (I have no interest in daemons personally) but from playing Dark Angels I've watched what I would consider mediocre 6th edition lists turn into flexible, objective stealing winners.

 

This in part is why I'm considering trying a run with them in 7th. We've been playing mostly Malestrom though as it's added a dimension to the game that pretty much eliminates sitting in a corner with the shootiest army in the game and pew-pewing your way to victory.

 

So yea, in principle I absolutely agree with what you're saying but it does sound like you rely heavily on daemons???

[Emperors Immortals]

Uh, no. I'm not no.

 

But it is nice to hear!

 

I don't run much othr than CSM and daemon engine, so I've limited options to begin with. I'm just starting the ImperialGuard army I've always wanted because chaos makes me cry right now. And I won't run my WorldEaters with loyalist codex any more.

 

Hopefully I can do a traitor guard list ala Vraks 2.0, cause I love chaos and have only just discovered (and pledged to) the black legion.

 

But sounds more like q daemon flyer lust would be more efficient for you.

 

 

Edit; I'm sure daemonic loci won't work for CSM as no daemonic instability unit can join a non-daemonic intabilty unit. If that's what you did, which I'm not too sure about.

 

Free mixes between Daemons ans CSM and battlebrithers AstraMilitarum would solve all the probs though.

[hornywingythingy]

I have played 14 games of 7th so far and I must say that the more I get the hang of it the stronger CSM seem to be. I do ally with Daemons but I think CSM make a better primary detachment right now than Daemons. Being able to take four Heralds as your single ally HQ slot is money, this can be used to up your Warp Charge by huge amounts, or add in a guy who will buff a unit he is in with his Loci, basically whatever you need them to be they will be for ya.

 

As I play more games I feel like I am starting to dominate harder than at any point in 6th ed. I struggle to win less often now and it no longer feels like I have one hand tied behind my back. Went to a local RTT a few weekends ago and I did pretty well though I did have a single loss. I ran a FMC list that just jumped 12" up the table and assaulted when it had the chance. A Knight list was down to two Knights (out of five) and the second to last one blew up and took out x3 of my MCs with it (three rolls of a 6 in a row removed them all :P), while he did get retardedly lucky with that, I managed dominated my other games (and the one against the Knights as I had lost zero models until that explosion took out three of my four MCs). In my practice games I am seeing the same results, people are getting outright destroyed against my assault oriented armies.

 

Wondering if others are noticing this trend as well?

How did you off the knights so easily? With the smash nerf, fmc nerf and vector strike nerf I shelved my fmc circus after test games, as only gliding nurgle spam seemed effective, and wave serpents Own that. And since wave serpents didn't get much weaker, and most other eldar builds did, more wave serpents is likely to be the thing.

 

Not having a dig, glad your having success, but confused as to how, since I'm not the only demon player moving off circus.

[Dallas Drake]

In Maelstrom missions we suffer badly from not having cheap, fast troops. I find it almost impossible to compete with some armies in that department. Cultists are good in that they're cheap but they're too slow. I'm looking towards allies Daemons tbh.

 

For the record. All the games I've took Telepathy and got Invisibility I've narrowly won (4). All the games I've taken Malefic or not got Invisibility I've lost (3).

 

Dallas

[Deadman Wade]

I haven't played old Eternal War missions, and I doubt I ever will, so I can't say anything about them, but in maelstrom we're definetely better. Our troops are resilient enough to hold objectives, we've got a lot of rearless squads, and there aren't that many other armies troops that can reliably contest our objectives without getting killed in close combat. Also, now we don't really need home-scoring troops, so kitting out a couple squads of CSM or plague marines should work fine. Rhinos got better, Champion of Chaos and challenges in general aren't as bad for us as before, flying MCs nerf again works in our favor, while our DPs, especially Nurgle DPs, got better (no shooting after Jink, but good cover save).

Sure, deathstars and net-lists are as boring and annoying to play against as ever, and we don't have any new stuff to counter them, but overall for CSM I see only improvements.

[Smurfalypse]

Uh, no. I'm not no.

 

But it is nice to hear!

 

I don't run much othr than CSM and daemon engine, so I've limited options to begin with. I'm just starting the ImperialGuard army I've always wanted because chaos makes me cry right now. And I won't run my WorldEaters with loyalist codex any more.

 

Hopefully I can do a traitor guard list ala Vraks 2.0, cause I love chaos and have only just discovered (and pledged to) the black legion.

 

But sounds more like q daemon flyer lust would be more efficient for you.

 

 

Edit; I'm sure daemonic loci won't work for CSM as no daemonic instability unit can join a non-daemonic intabilty unit. If that's what you did, which I'm not too sure about.

 

Free mixes between Daemons ans CSM and battlebrithers AstraMilitarum would solve all the probs though.

 

Think you are really misunderstanding what I am saying.

No, I am not talking about Heralds joining CSM units I am talking about them joining their own units and making them better and getting us more WC.

[Zhukov]

Could it be due to the fact that you grasp the changes of 7th and how to win in 7th a lot quicker than most of your oppenents? What list are you playing? What lists are your oppenents playing? Missions being played?

 

Basicly, severe lack of information  and small sample size makes me wonder how reliable your results are. Elaborate please!

[Smurfalypse]

I have played 14 games of 7th so far and I must say that the more I get the hang of it the stronger CSM seem to be. I do ally with Daemons but I think CSM make a better primary detachment right now than Daemons. Being able to take four Heralds as your single ally HQ slot is money, this can be used to up your Warp Charge by huge amounts, or add in a guy who will buff a unit he is in with his Loci, basically whatever you need them to be they will be for ya.

As I play more games I feel like I am starting to dominate harder than at any point in 6th ed. I struggle to win less often now and it no longer feels like I have one hand tied behind my back. Went to a local RTT a few weekends ago and I did pretty well though I did have a single loss. I ran a FMC list that just jumped 12" up the table and assaulted when it had the chance. A Knight list was down to two Knights (out of five) and the second to last one blew up and took out x3 of my MCs with it (three rolls of a 6 in a row removed them all ), while he did get retardedly lucky with that, I managed dominated my other games (and the one against the Knights as I had lost zero models until that explosion took out three of my four MCs). In my practice games I am seeing the same results, people are getting outright destroyed against my assault oriented armies.

Wondering if others are noticing this trend as well?

How did you off the knights so easily? With the smash nerf, fmc nerf and vector strike nerf I shelved my fmc circus after test games, as only gliding nurgle spam seemed effective, and wave serpents Own that. And since wave serpents didn't get much weaker, and most other eldar builds did, more wave serpents is likely to be the thing.

Not having a dig, glad your having success, but confused as to how, since I'm not the only demon player moving off circus.

I had Belakor, a GUO, a Nurgle Mace Prince, and a normal Prince. I jumped them forward on the first turn and he assaulted them. Belakor killed one, the Mace Prince killed one and another was hurt. On his turn he threw another two into CC with stuff and the Mace Prince killed another. On my turn Belakor jumped in and killed one that was not engaged, it blew up, scattered and killed Belakor, Prince, Mace Prince all in one go (it was a bit of a scrum to be honest). That left the GUO and a single Knight, the Knight was left with a single hull point when he offed the GUO so I just ran my troops around and scored some of the objectives. I ended up losing by a single VP.

It was a gliding Nurgle Prince list, so there is no flying in it. The stuff I do struggle against with that list (stopped playing it as it is not really my style) is MSU as I just cannot kill enough small units to stop them from owning objectives with OS.

I then switched to a more balanced list.

Nurgle Lord

Sorcerer

Nurgle Spawn

Cultists

Cultists

Mauler

Mauler

Herald of Tz

Herald of Tz

Herald of Khorne

Horrors

Horrors

Khorne Hounds

Everything is a big unit and it has a massive amount of aggression . I have been doing super well with this as I have an answer for just about anything (other than air). I can summon what I need to succeed and just control the table with my big units. Wave Serpent cant kill enough for it to matter, I get into CC turn two and usually kill two or three at that point. Downhill for him from there. Knights are not a massive issue either, can keep the Maulers in cover and use them to suicide a few if needed, the Lord/Sorcerer both have Melta to help out and I can summon Plaguebearers or Screamers if needed.

Conjuration is like a swiss army knife, you dont spam it, just conjur what you need at that moment and use it to reinforce your army with an answer it may not have had previously. I also ran a list recently with a x20 man blob of CSMs with MoS and Banner of Excess. Took a few Sorcerers and a few Horrors units for the extra WC. Ended up geting Invis and was able to Invis or Endurance my blob every turn, it basically made them unkillable to my opponent, they walked up the board and controlled such a large area that he was never able to respond with anything threatening.

[Smurfalypse]

If MC's are monstrous creatures, then it sounds like most of your success revolved around those?

 

I personally can't speak for CSM (I have no interest in daemons personally) but from playing Dark Angels I've watched what I would consider mediocre 6th edition lists turn into flexible, objective stealing winners.

 

This in part is why I'm considering trying a run with them in 7th. We've been playing mostly Malestrom though as it's added a dimension to the game that pretty much eliminates sitting in a corner with the shootiest army in the game and pew-pewing your way to victory.

 

So yea, in principle I absolutely agree with what you're saying but it does sound like you rely heavily on daemons???

 

I do rely heavily on Daemons, but what I take from CSM I could not take if I made Daemons my primary detatchment. Being able to take up to four Heralds as my HQ for an ally is money. Daemons primary would mean I would have to chose between a Lord or Sorcerer and not be able to double up on Maulers or Drakes (not that good anymore to be honest), or Obliterators, or whatever else I would like to take from CSM.

[the jeske]

Would have to be tested, But if you get off invisi with just one source of it , then the avarge power dice number has to be realy low [as in lower then 7].

 

My problem with melee and chaos in 7th is that we can pull it off only , if there are no melee death stars in the enviroment. One GK choir or a marine runing dual tele bikers with Inq henchman dice generators and can have problems .

 

necron builds are also bad. av13 in melee and flyers and suddenly each of  our maulers want an invisibility every turn .

[Smurfalypse]

Would have to be tested, But if you get off invisi with just one source of it , then the avarge power dice number has to be realy low [as in lower then 7].

 

My problem with melee and chaos in 7th is that we can pull it off only , if there are no melee death stars in the enviroment. One GK choir or a marine runing dual tele bikers with Inq henchman dice generators and can have problems .

 

necron builds are also bad. av13 in melee and flyers and suddenly each of  our maulers want an invisibility every turn .

 

I have played a few games against GK deathstars and came out ahead (2-0 so far), also played Seer Council once and stomped that. Not too worried about deathstars anymore, I can literally throw all 15-22 of my dice at it to try and block with decent odds.

 

Necrons have a rear of 11, not 13, so would be stomping those pretty handily in CC.

[the jeske]

Well as I said it would have to be tested more. I play demon primary with sorc+spawn and cultists+oblits support , but probably will drop the oblits for more dogs . I am always worried about single caster tactics and multi unit combos.

IMO summoning is too important to leave it to only 2[well 3 am assuming your runing glyph] heralds , and I was always too worried about whole horror units going puff on peril.

 

My problem with GK is that they have the same shoting as my army , but more sources of ++2 , str 6 far too offten and those god them empyrean mines. And no army can beat a 55 pts power dice in form of a paladin or  a bit cheaper two with henchman rhinos shrieking their way through my army.

[Dallas Drake]

I have played 14 games of 7th so far and I must say that the more I get the hang of it the stronger CSM seem to be. I do ally with Daemons but I think CSM make a better primary detachment right now than Daemons. Being able to take four Heralds as your single ally HQ slot is money, this can be used to up your Warp Charge by huge amounts, or add in a guy who will buff a unit he is in with his Loci, basically whatever you need them to be they will be for ya.

As I play more games I feel like I am starting to dominate harder than at any point in 6th ed. I struggle to win less often now and it no longer feels like I have one hand tied behind my back. Went to a local RTT a few weekends ago and I did pretty well though I did have a single loss. I ran a FMC list that just jumped 12" up the table and assaulted when it had the chance. A Knight list was down to two Knights (out of five) and the second to last one blew up and took out x3 of my MCs with it (three rolls of a 6 in a row removed them all ), while he did get retardedly lucky with that, I managed dominated my other games (and the one against the Knights as I had lost zero models until that explosion took out three of my four MCs). In my practice games I am seeing the same results, people are getting outright destroyed against my assault oriented armies.

Wondering if others are noticing this trend as well?

How did you off the knights so easily? With the smash nerf, fmc nerf and vector strike nerf I shelved my fmc circus after test games, as only gliding nurgle spam seemed effective, and wave serpents Own that. And since wave serpents didn't get much weaker, and most other eldar builds did, more wave serpents is likely to be the thing.

Not having a dig, glad your having success, but confused as to how, since I'm not the only demon player moving off circus.

I had Belakor, a GUO, a Nurgle Mace Prince, and a normal Prince. I jumped them forward on the first turn and he assaulted them. Belakor killed one, the Mace Prince killed one and another was hurt. On his turn he threw another two into CC with stuff and the Mace Prince killed another. On my turn Belakor jumped in and killed one that was not engaged, it blew up, scattered and killed Belakor, Prince, Mace Prince all in one go (it was a bit of a scrum to be honest). That left the GUO and a single Knight, the Knight was left with a single hull point when he offed the GUO so I just ran my troops around and scored some of the objectives. I ended up losing by a single VP.

It was a gliding Nurgle Prince list, so there is no flying in it. The stuff I do struggle against with that list (stopped playing it as it is not really my style) is MSU as I just cannot kill enough small units to stop them from owning objectives with OS.

I then switched to a more balanced list.

Nurgle Lord

Sorcerer

Nurgle Spawn

Cultists

Cultists

Mauler

Mauler

Herald of Tz

Herald of Tz

Herald of Khorne

Horrors

Horrors

Khorne Hounds

Everything is a big unit and it has a massive amount of aggression . I have been doing super well with this as I have an answer for just about anything (other than air). I can summon what I need to succeed and just control the table with my big units. Wave Serpent cant kill enough for it to matter, I get into CC turn two and usually kill two or three at that point. Downhill for him from there. Knights are not a massive issue either, can keep the Maulers in cover and use them to suicide a few if needed, the Lord/Sorcerer both have Melta to help out and I can summon Plaguebearers or Screamers if needed.

Conjuration is like a swiss army knife, you dont spam it, just conjur what you need at that moment and use it to reinforce your army with an answer it may not have had previously. I also ran a list recently with a x20 man blob of CSMs with MoS and Banner of Excess. Took a few Sorcerers and a few Horrors units for the extra WC. Ended up geting Invis and was able to Invis or Endurance my blob every turn, it basically made them unkillable to my opponent, they walked up the board and controlled such a large area that he was never able to respond with anything threatening.

This sounds very promising, congrats on the victories.

Got to ask you Smurf (& anyone else with experience) what are those Maulerfiends like? I just can't get my head around them (4xS10 I3 hits + magma/lasher?) yet I keep reading and hearing good things about them. Surely they're getting pwned by Dreadnoughts or Wraithknights; or just bogged down by Gaunts, etc?

Reason I ask is I plan on running some big blobs of Daemonettes (15-20) led by Heralds with Locus of Beguilment in my next few games. Thing is, outside of the Fire Raptor I've actually given up on anti-flyer, CSM just can't do it, my Heldrakes can't do hull points quick enough & even Prescience Forgefiends/Havocs/Oblits aren't cutting it. So, I figure just kill everything on the ground. That leaves my HS slots open, (I'll take 2-3 Oblits for Swiss Army knives) so I could add 2 Maulerfiends... I'm just not sure...

The list will have Telepathy Sorcerer x2, bikes, cultists and maybe a Heldrake or unit of Possessed/noise marines.

Your post has piqued my interest.

Dallas

[Dragonlover]

So, purely anecdotal here, but I agree with the OP. I came the closest I've been to beating one of my regular opponents in two years this week thanks to Maelstrom. We played the exact same lists against each other for our last game of 6th and I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter, this time there was 1 VP in it.

 

Just in general though, my army seems to perform better and the flow of the game just makes more sense now. Hell, I used a Turbo Boosting Rhino for the first time ever this week in order to get an objective, rather than just driving around shooting things from the top hatch.

 

Dragonlover

[Emperors Immortals]

K, I'm curious too.

 

If you get this workingvwell, ill redo my CSM.

 

Please make it work .

 

-edit- I didn't mean it to sound like its your responsibility.

 

Dallas, I'm running NM too, not convinced on an all NM list yet, I've added daemonettes (of course) and some bikers for my lord.

 

Tips to get malific off against Eldar/GK wry welcome.

 

Also, I've found maulers to be very effective against single chats ters (bike lobbies) and AV up to 12, prob do 13, 14 too but I've never tried.

[the jeske]

Just in general though, my army seems to perform better and the flow of the game just makes more sense now. Hell, I used a Turbo Boosting Rhino for the first time ever this week in order to get an objective, rather than just driving around shooting things from the top hatch.

 

Dragonlover

storm missions are a bad indication of army being good or bad? I had games where I had gone first or second , where I was able to cycle my mission hands turn 1&2 doing 4+ VP per turn . If that happens your already winning , but if your using only one deck[imo for balance sake everyone should have theirs] and his "best" missions are those that you used , and suddenly his tau end up with those destroy in melee , kill HQ etc The game is more or less made , unless he starts using loaded dice.

 

 

 

 

 

Reason I ask is I plan on running some big blobs of Daemonettes (15-20) led by Heralds with Locus of Beguilment in my next few games. Thing is, outside of the Fire Raptor I've actually given up on anti-flyer, CSM just can't do it, my Heldrakes can't do hull points quick enough & even Prescience Forgefiends/Havocs/Oblits aren't cutting it. So, I figure just kill everything on the ground. That leaves my HS slots open, (I'll take 2-3 Oblits for Swiss Army knives) so I could add 2 Maulerfiends... I'm just not sure...

 

 

Ignore flyers if your playing a melee centered army. And if you realy realy realy want anti air take a slanesh DP with lash.

[Tenebris]

Good to hear Chaos doing well. It is ... refreshing.

 

I think we should make a topic for the battle reports in the 7th since we all could use the tips, strategies and army lists we can get our hands on. Chaos is shifting, sure part of the success is due to Daemonology and the new army list mechanics but I think that we can field flexible armies, especially in an environment which favours JOAT armies. 

[Dallas Drake]

 

Reason I ask is I plan on running some big blobs of Daemonettes (15-20) led by Heralds with Locus of Beguilment in my next few games. Thing is, outside of the Fire Raptor I've actually given up on anti-flyer, CSM just can't do it, my Heldrakes can't do hull points quick enough & even Prescience Forgefiends/Havocs/Oblits aren't cutting it. So, I figure just kill everything on the ground. That leaves my HS slots open, (I'll take 2-3 Oblits for Swiss Army knives) so I could add 2 Maulerfiends... I'm just not sure...

 

Ignore flyers if your playing a melee centered army. And if you realy realy realy want anti air take a slanesh DP with lash.

I think I'm going to have to. If you want anti-flyer you have to build your list around it. Even then, it's not certain to be effective. 5 FMCs or 3 Valks are just too tough for CSMs and I resent piling points into Aegis or Drakes, and even Prescience on regular stuff is meh. I had my Drakes taken out by electroshock grubs the other day, that was the final straw :(

[Smurfalypse]

Yeah, CSM need to all in on rush forces if you are going that route. Can't afford to ease up at all, if you ignore the air you must table him on the ground (or nearly table him).

 

I like Maulers, they got better as only a 7 and a 6 stop them in their tracks (explosion and immobilization), you can also start off with your Horrors near them if they get Cursed Earth and use that to give the Maulers a 4++ for the first turn or two (if the Horrors get a good run), helps tons. I am feeling a bit better about it and it feels less like I am playing competitive 40k with one hand tied behind my back lately. I feel like I have a shot to win more games than I did previously.

 

We match up better than just about anyone else vs MSU and Serpents should not be able to kill enough to stop us from assaulting and killing the majority of their transports by turn 3. Just my two cents on it, though I need far more games to get a full feel for what is happening and how the meta is shifting.

[Dallas Drake]

How does this look for 1250?

 

L3 telepathy Sorcerer (Spell familiar)

L3 telepathy Sorcerer (Spell familiar & bike)

17 Cultists (7 autoguns)

17 Cultists (7 autoguns)

4 Bikes (MoN & meltaguns)

Maulerfiend

Maulerfiend

2 Obliterators

 

Herald of Slaanesh (Locus of Beguilement)

20 Daemonettes (Icon)

 

Not sure whether to drop the CSM Sorcerer (as he's footslogging with a non-fearless unit) and an Oblit for a ML3 Herald of Tzeentch and 10+ Horrors? More OS and more magic, albeit Divination/Malefic not Telepathy.