Death Guard Chem-Fury (3k)

[Flamebeast]

I realise I've posted a couple of DG lists recently, but thought I'd post an alternative that amused me, and that might actually be better. Anyway, here goes:

 

Lords of War -

Mortarion the Reaper, Primarch of the Death Guard

 

HQ -
Calas Typhon, First Captain of the Death Guard

          5 Deathshroud Terminators, Melta Bombs

 

Troops - 

Legion Tactical Squad, 20 strong, Vexilla, Artificier Armour, Rad Grenades

Legion Tactical Squad, 20 strong, Vexilla, Artificier Armour, Rad Grenades

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 10 Strong, Artificier Armour, Melta Bombs, Chem Munitions

            Rhino Armoured Carrier, Aux Drive, Extra Armour, Dozer Blade

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 10 Strong, Artificier Armour, Melta Bombs, Chem Munitions

            Rhino Armoured Carrier, Aux Drive, Extra Armour, Dozer Blade

 

Elites -

Apothecarion Detachment, 2 Apothecaries, Power swords, Augury scanners

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, 2 TL Lascannons, Extra Armour, Havoc Launcher

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, 2 TL Lascannons, Extra Armour, Havoc Launcher

Rapier Weapons Battery, 3x Laser Destroyers

 

Heavy Support -

Spartan Assault Tank, TL Heavy Flamer, Chem Munitions, Armoured Ceramite, Aux Drive, Dozer Blade, Flare Shield

 

 

Spartan Assault tank takes the Deathshroud and Typhon towards the enemy, assaulting when possible, and preferably hitting something nasty. Mortarion ghosts up the field and pretty much does the same thing, only more impressively. The TSS get driven up the field and thrown at large enemy infantry squads, because who doesn't love 20 flamers that re-roll to wound rolls? Tac squads move up behind and provide massed bolter fire at anything that doesn't have more immediate problems, and the whole time the Rapiers and Mortis are engaging (and hopefully killing) enemy armour and aircraft.

 

Thoughts?

[Triacom]

Huh, this is a coincidence as I'm building a very similar list, the main problem I see with this one though is your movement, you've got rad grenades on tactical squads meaning you're taking the reaping rite of war, but this means, at most, those 20 man tactical squads will move 6" per turn, I think it would be better to cut them down into squads that can fit in Rhino's, even though it costs more points, though I'm not sure what to do about the apothecaries then, one could go with the deathshroud, and I don't know about the other.

 

Get's Hot! weapons on something like a spartan is way too risky in my opinion, since the roll doesn't need to roll over the armour of the target, you have a 50% chance of glancing yourself on a roll of 1, which on something costly (and as hard to kill) as a spartan is pretty huge.  You don't want to make it easier for the opponent, though if you're playing purely for fluff purposes, go ahead, there's nothing funnier for both sides than when a giant killing machine self destructs because its flamer malfunctions.

 

You've also got a LOT of AT, I'm not sure if it's because you're really worried about running across mechanized iron hands, or you don't like vehicles in general, but I don't think you need 7 S9 shots per turn, you could free up a lot of points by cutting down a contemptor mortis.

[Flamebeast]

I'm going to break the response down to try and get a point-by-point debate going, so here goes:

 

1. "you've got rad grenades on tactical squads meaning you're taking the reaping rite of war, but this means, at most, those 20 man tactical squads will move 6" per turn, I think it would be better to cut them down" - True, but while they're moving slowly, they'll be hugging cover as much as possible, and will have FnP from one of the apothecaries, so they should make it to at least bolter range intact, especially since most sane opponents would be targeting other parts of my army.

 

2. "Get's Hot! weapons on something like a spartan is way too risky" I'd disagree there, tbh. Twin-linked now lets me re-roll the GH die, then the glance only happens on a 1-3, so I've got something like a 1/64 chance of losing a hull point to it. Given that I've taken it instead of the heavy bolter on a completely fluffy basis, I'm totally ok with this level of risk (especially since it needs to be like 8" at most from anything to actually use it, so it won't even be firing that often).

 

3. "You've also got a LOT of AT, I'm not sure if it's because you're really worried about running across mechanized iron hands, or you don't like vehicles in general, but I don't think you need 7 S9 shots per turn, you could free up a lot of points by cutting down a contemptor mortis." It's not so much that I'm worried about coming across a LOT of vehicles, but more what vehicles I'll encounter. Squadrons of 3 land raiders, spartans, and the various astartes aircraft are all nasty mother:cussers, and I'd rather have too much AT than not enough. Also, I'm pretty sure I've got 9 S9 shots in there (4 from contemptors, 2 from spartan, 3 from rapiers), which might actually be too many. Might swap a contemptor for more Deathshroud, because scythes are bitchin'.

 

New possibility:

 

Lords of War -

Mortarion the Reaper, Primarch of the Death Guard

 

HQ -
Calas Typhon, First Captain of the Death Guard

          10 Deathshroud Terminators, Melta Bombs

 

Troops - 

Legion Tactical Squad, 20 strong, Vexilla, Artificier Armour, Rad Grenades

Legion Tactical Squad, 20 strong, Vexilla, Artificier Armour, Rad Grenades

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 10 Strong, Artificier Armour, Melta Bombs, Chem Munitions

            Rhino Armoured Carrier, Aux Drive, Extra Armour, Dozer Blade

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 10 Strong, Artificier Armour, Melta Bombs, Chem Munitions

            Rhino Armoured Carrier, Aux Drive, Extra Armour, Dozer Blade

 

Elites -

Apothecarion Detachment, 2 Apothecaries, Power swords, Augury scanners

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, 2 TL Lascannons, Havoc Launcher

Rapier Weapons Battery, 3x Laser Destroyers

 

Heavy Support -

Spartan Assault Tank, TL Heavy Flamer, Chem Munitions, Armoured Ceramite, Aux Drive, Dozer Blade, Flare Shield

 

That seeming a bit more balanced to you?

[Emperors Teeth]

I love this list man, regardless of how effective it'll be (and it looks very effective). I'm writing a 3k Iron Hands list of similar composition, though possible more frivilous unit choices at this very moment. I am unsure if it would fare well vs. yours.

[Triacom]

Those responses are pretty fair, I can certainly see where you're coming from, EXCEPT with the AT bit, if those are the vehicles you are worried about, you'd be better off with graviton weapons because having haywire far outclasses lascannon/laser destroyers in my opinion.

 

Let's look at those vehicles for a second, I've never heard of anyone bringing a spartan without a flare shield (or really any vehicle that can take it not having it), so any shots you make at the front of it are S8 (because it'll be facing some of the Laser destroyers, though you should be able to sneak in the side with a contemptor or your own spartan for S9) and if they are iron hands then your laser destroyers and las cannons cannot hurt it at all from the front, and at best can glance it from the side.

 

Aside from that, and reading your points, I like both your lists, these are just my opinions, and I've held back some recommendations because they'd pretty much just turn it into the list I wrote and I don't want.

 

One last suggestion I'll give though is to swap out Typhon for Morturg, Typhon is awesome (especially for chem bombardment), but if you're increasing the amount of deathshroud you've got I think they'd do a lot better with infiltrate, that way, in turn one, they can walk up to the enemy, flame them (a lot with that many templates), and then wall of death any charge they'll get like no tomorrow, even if they get shot a lot instead of charged, Morturg giving them feel no pain (4+) and eternal warrior should let them survive any shooting phase pretty easily.

[Emperors Teeth]

...and if they are iron hands then your laser destroyers and las cannons cannot hurt it at all from the front, and at best can glance it from the side.

 

Fortunately for you, that -1S Iron Hands get only applies to units with the 'Legiones Astartes: Iron Hands' special rule; which is only ever infantry.

[Triacom]

My mistake on that then, I just misremembered it.

[Flamebeast]

OK, so where would you drop the extra.... 60 points I'd need for graviton rapiers?

[Triacom]

OK, so where would you drop the extra.... 60 points I'd need for graviton rapiers?

This depends on if you want to take Morturg or Typhon, Morturg guarantees you a first turn of flaming the enemy (if you go first or they don't run away) with the deathshroud if you put him in there, which fits the feel of the list a little (more chem blasts are always better), but Typhon might be better for the theme overall because of Chem-bombardment (though I think he'll play a bit worse), and unfortunately for Typhon, he can't get Psychic Powers unless your opponent agrees to let you have them (due to Mortarion), so your Psychic Phase will be a bit lacking.

 

If you take Morturg, since he costs less than Typhon, you only need to lose 1 Deathshroud, 10 is fun, but a bit excessive, 9 can easily do the job just as well, if not better, thanks to the buffs Morturg can give them, not having your Deathshroud get Instantly Killed by S8 is a lot better in my opinion.

 

If you keep Typhon, I'd recommend getting rid of 1 Deathshroud, the havoc launcher, and an augury scanner.

The 1 deathshroud I'd recommend getting rid of for because 10 is a bit excessive, the havoc launcher because the mortis-contemptor is usually AA support, blast weapons can't be fired at fliers, and if you're upgrading to Graviton Cannons you've already got your blasts covered, three 5" blasts a turn instead of one 3" blast a turn is a big improvement, and I'd recommend sacrificing the augury scanner because infiltrators, barring a few examples that the death guard can make (thanks Morturg), are terrible, Close Combat infiltrators cannot charge in turn 1, non-shooting infiltrators are very rare, the shooting ones can still shoot at 18" anyway, I've never been too worried about losing interceptor, but that's because I've never been screwed over by deepstrikers in the turn they shoot, though I've never played against really bad combo's like the farsight bomb, if you're really worried about infiltrators you could remove Extra Armour or an auxiliary drive on one of the Rhino's instead, I've never been too hurt by skipping Extra Armour, and for the auxiliary drive, usually if the Rhino's immobilized you want to hop out right away, instead of waiting a bit to see if it'll repair itself (although the chance of repairing before the movement is handy), though I'd still recommend both on bigger things like Land Raiders and Spartans.

Depending on the tables you usually play on you could choose to drop one of the dozer blades instead of the scanner, extra armour, or Aux Drive if there isn't too much terrain usually.

 

Here's another idea, if you take Morturg, you don't need a Spartan to carry around your deathshroud, you can put a regular squad in it instead and ditch their Rhino to get the points you need, and then some.

 

One last important thing to keep in mind, while your enemy will be greatly hindered by the graviton weapons after-effects, they'll have next to no effect on you because the Rite of War gives you Move Through Cover, you're immune to dangerous terrain and move through cover means your movement phase will almost always have your full movement available to you.

 

Anyway these are my three suggestions, and that's only if you want to play with Graviton Cannons (which I'd still recommend over laser destroyers for vehicle killing).

[Flamebeast]

Another alternative would be to simply drop one of the rapiers, leaving me with a battery of two gravitons. Less shots, but it'll cost less money and won't waste any of the models I do buy.

[Triacom]

That's an option too, so long as they both keep hitting you'll take down a Spartan, I like three just in case it passes an IWND roll (iron hands with ferrus) or that 6+ thing it can get normally, but after thinking it over I'll admit three probably won't make their points back unlike two, and even though three can kill it in two turns it'll have probably dropped its troops by then.

[Flamebeast]

To be fair, to actually miss a spartan they'd need to roll pretty highly on the scatter. Yay BS4! Two grav-blasts plus lascannon action is almost certainly enough dakka for most tanks. I can also throw gravs at foot-slogging primarchs to slow them down if need be (though to be fair I'd probably just charge them with Morty because that'd be great fun).

[Triacom]

To be fair, to actually miss a spartan they'd need to roll pretty highly on the scatter. Yay BS4! Two grav-blasts plus lascannon action is almost certainly enough dakka for most tanks. I can also throw gravs at foot-slogging primarchs to slow them down if need be (though to be fair I'd probably just charge them with Morty because that'd be great fun).

Woah, hold on a minute, Mortarion doesn't fare too well against most Primarchs, he's got very even odds, or worse at taking them down, the only one he can really deal with consistantly is non-invisible Lorgar and half of the other primarchs have a better invulnerable save and either higher strength, or more attacks to make up for it, the only way I can see for him to consistently take on other Primarchs is if you give him rad grenades (and you're taking the reaping, so you can do that), which is something I'd suggest if you plan on fighting primarchs or monsters, though he normally doesn't need them.

 

EDIT: Disregard that bit about Mortarion being able to take rad grenades, he cannot because he doesn't have the Legiones Astartes rule, and only Legiones Astartes (Death Guard) can take them.

 

Unlike other primarchs though, Mortarion is awesome at almost every single other battlefield role there is, Monsters?  Instant Death them, grots/ork boy mob?  Sweep Attack them, Vehicles?  Re-roll failed Armour Penetration at S8 with your pistol, Phosphex bombs will chase your opponent out of cover (nobody likes taking dangerous terrian tests every turn) and T7 makes him invincible to guardsmen rapid fire, Shadow of the Reaper insures he's almost always going to get into combat, where he excels against everyone who isn't a Primarch thanks to T7 making him nearly (if not outright) invincible to most armies regular troops.

[Flamebeast]

Fair point on the rad grenades, may have to do that. However, my reason for charging other primarchs with morty wouldn't necessarily be that he'd win (although I'd soften up the other primarch first to try and tip the scales that way), but more that primarch on primarch duels are great.

[Triacom]

Fair point on the rad grenades, may have to do that. However, my reason for charging other primarchs with morty wouldn't necessarily be that he'd win (although I'd soften up the other primarch first to try and tip the scales that way), but more that primarch on primarch duels are great.

That's true, they are great, and I need to correct myself on something, Mortarion cannot take Rad Grenades because only Legiones Astartes can take them, and he does not have that rule.  My mistake, he's still fantastic at every other battlefield role except AA though.

[Flamebeast]

Just had a thought - I can just use it as a crusade-era force, and perform the following savagery:

 

Lords of War -

Mortarion the Reaper, Primarch of the Death Guard (deploys with Deathshroud)

 

HQ -
Calas Typhon, First Captain of the Death Guard - Rad Grenades

          10 Deathshroud Terminators, Melta Bombs

 

Section Leader Crysos Morturg (deploys with Morty and DS), Rad Grenades, Chem-munitions

 

Troops - 

Legion Tactical Squad, 20 strong, Vexilla, Artificier Armour, Rad Grenades

Legion Tactical Squad, 20 strong, Vexilla, Artificier Armour, Rad Grenades

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 10 Strong, Artificier Armour, Chem Munitions

            Rhino Armoured Carrier, Dozer Blade

Legion Tactical Support Squad, 10 Strong, Artificier Armour, Chem Munitions

            Rhino Armoured Carrier, Dozer Blade

 

Elites -

Apothecarion Detachment, 2 Apothecaries, Artificier Armour, Power swords

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, 2 TL Lascannons

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, 2 TL Lascannons

Rapier Weapons Battery, 3x Graviton Cannons

 

 

Fits better with Mortarion's personal philosophy of war, gives me a bit more useful AA, and lets me dump Typhon, Morturg, Mortarion and 10 Deathshroud right in front of the enemy, and keeps my AT viable.

[Slips]

Looks nice and Fluffy really, and since all units are scoring in 7th you could actually deploy your batteries as backfield objective campers. Just a question : Tac Supporrt squads are using Flamers for Chem Munitions right?

[Triacom]

Now this looks like a good list, fluffy and it looks like it's going to be fun to play.

 

Looks nice and Fluffy really, and since all units are scoring in 7th you could actually deploy your batteries as backfield objective campers. Just a question : Tac Supporrt squads are using Flamers for Chem Munitions right?

They start with flamers by default, and they haven't swapped them, so they've got flamers.

[Slips]

Yeah sorry I just like having the extra information regardless, especially since we can't really list points cost, it makes it that much clearer - for me anyways :p

[Triacom]

Yeah sorry I just like having the extra information regardless, especially since we can't really list points cost, it makes it that much clearer - for me anyways

You don't need to worry about chem-munitions when factoring in points cost, all chem-munitions are free, it's one of the really nice things about them and why I have a very hard time trying to justify not taking them at all times.

[Flamebeast]

Yeah, flamers on the tacsup squads - the obvious choice really, when playing death guard. Also I like that this setup saves me a non-trivial sum of money by not having a spartan in it.