Gal Vorbak On the table

[Emperor's Furor]

I was just wondering according to the note in the book all attacks regardless of the weapon use are rending, so would that mean if I had two power axes and a power fist in the unit they'd all have rending and if so would that be a good way to go with equipping them?

[blackoption]

All close combat attacks are rending... regardless of weaponry.  They could be stock and they would still rend in an assault.

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah but do the axe attacks rend to?

[blackoption]

Yes.  Your axes would gain the benefits of the rending special rule, as would the power fists.  The rending rule is applyed to the model, not to any specific war gear.  As such, any war gear it uses gains the rending rule.

[Emperor's Furor]

That's pretty awesome then. Thanks.

[Moonstalker]

That's pretty awesome then. Thanks.

 

Not really.  The powerfists gain no benefit from rending.  They will already wound anything, even Toughness 10, on a 4.  So the auto-wound on 6's doesn't help, and they are already AP2.  Vs Vehicles, They already autopen AV10, have 2+/3+ and 3+/4+ vs sicarans/dreadnoughts and contemptors respectively, and will also pen Land Raiders/Spartans on a 4 to glance/5+ to pen.  The additional d3 on a 6 means nothing because a 6 is already 16 vs 14.

 

For axes, there is a little more benefit.  They are basically the equivealent of a Kheres at that point, so no change vs AV10, 6's autopen AV12/autoglance AV13 with a 2/3 chance of it being a pen.  Vs models with a toughness value, S6 can already wound everything up to T9 with 6's, so all the rending does there is allow them to hurt T10 models.  How many of those are there, exactly, in 30k?

 

For those high strength, AP2 melee weapons the rending just isn't doing a whole lot.  Wanna talk about value?  5 attacks per model on the charge with WS5, I5 and Rending.  Give them swords, not axes, get the most out of that high initiative and rely on the rending to carry you through against terminators.

[Emperor's Furor]

With the axe though the rending hit is AP2 against vehicles since it uses the ap of the weapon now rather than automatically being AP2. It's only against things with armour saves that rending becomes AP2. I'm already using Bloodletters so I don't think I need more AP3 weapons in combat so I'm not sure, perhaps I shouldn't give them anything, I'm thinking of having ten of them in a spartan eventually. What do you think about Power Mauls?

[Leif Bearclaw]

Are you really looking to explode vehicles with them though? With Hull Points unchanged this edition (grumblegrumblegrumble) you have pretty solid odds of glancing most vehicles to death. Plus, are you really relying on Gal Vorbak for anti tank? With their number of attacks and S5, they can do it, but there surely are better value options availalble.

[Emperor's Furor]

Shall I just leave the special weapons off them entirely then? I'm converting 5 out of possessed marines so I have the options to equip them with what ever, but I don't know what to give them.

[Moonstalker]

I might give the Martyr a powerfist because it's 5 S10 attacks on the charge.  5 S10 AP2 attacks hitting on 3's with no cover saves will ruin any vehicle if you get pushed into having to fight a dreadnought or emergency-remove a Spartan/Land Raider.  The rest of them I would not go power axes on because leveraging their good base stats is more important.  The power sword is preferable over the maul because the +2 str from the maul is not enough to defeat FNP on marines and ignoring 3+ saves is better than having a 2+ instead of a 3+ to wound.  Considering their high cost already, I am not sure if I would go for any weapons on the Brethren - depends on the point value of the game and how big of a squad I was bringing.  You might have the right mix already with a powerfist, two power weapons (swords) and then two with just their BP/CCW.  I might reduce it to one or no power weapon if I was starved for points.  You're putting out enough attacks anyway, especially mixed with the powerfist on the Martyr, that you're probably going to straight-up break any tactical squad, and then probably catch them in the sweep because of your Initiative advantage.

[Emperor's Furor]

Ok cool, I'll just go with the power fist then, I'm planning on having ten of them eventually, five of my converted ones and 5 of the forge world ones.

[blackoption]

I agree with kitwulfen's assessment.  The Rending makes them nastier in close combat, but would be wasted on AP2 weaponry.   The most point efficient way to use the rending would be to have them with just stock equipment. 

 

All things being equal... I'd go up to AP3 at most, so lightning claws and swords.  The Rending would still be lethal against Terminators and 2+ armor saves.  Gal Vorbak strike me more as rounded infantry killers.  They are what the chaos possessed marines should have been and then some. If I remember correctly, they are not exactly cheap though and they cannot be scoring units.  If I were to run them, I'd use them as suicide troops.  I'd leave the anti-vehicle to a better suited unit (raiper batteries, heavy weapons squads, tanks, ect)

[Kol Saresk]

Actually since Gal Vorbak are supposed to Possessed on steroids(fluffwise) I'd have to strongly argue against Chaos Possessed being the exact same thing.

 

Note: That does not mean I am advocating the current Chaos Possessed's stats. Just that they shouldn't be Gal Vorbak.

[blackoption]

Kol:  I agree 100 percent, hence why I said "should have been and then some."  Although not exactly on topic, I think GW possessed should take lessons and emulate the Gal Vorbak

[Balthamal]

It was noted in both Massacre and in a fragment of something from Black Library that I can't quite put my finger on, that the Gal Vorbak were the first and the greatest, everything that came after were pale shadows of what came after. Stands to reason really since the powers in the Warp needed to make a convincing case to convert Lorgar in the first place.

 

That being said though they were far from immortal. Don't think there were any left by the time the Shadow Crusade reached it's apex

[Kol Saresk]

We don't know the state of the original Gal Vorbak. Argel Tal states that after Istvaan V, they all went their various ways. So a few may have survived the Shadow Crusade, maybe even the Heresy itself. But after that, there would only be the "thinblood" Gal Vorbak that Argel Tal birthed on the way from Istvaan V to Ultramar, or any that were birthed from the original Gal Vorbak in a similar manner.

[Emperor's Furor]

Were the Vakrah Jal all possessed marines? I thought I read they were less than the original Gal Vorbak, equally from Vengeful Spirit...

 

 

The Luperci are meant to be a lesser form of possessed to I think

 

[Kol Saresk]

Were the Vakrah Jal all possessed marines? I thought I read they were less than the original Gal Vorbak, equally from Vengeful Spirit...

 

 

The Luperci are meant to be a lesser form of possessed to I think

 

The Vakrah Jal are simply the new Chapter Argel Tal formed under the orders of Lorgar. In the short story "The Underground War", we see Lorgar commission Argel Tal with creating 2000 new Gal Vorbak who would all be sent to Calth.

 

And the Luperci are a lesser form of possessed in which Fulgrim's possession is emulated: the daemon controls the body, but does not mutate it and no physical changes are observed except for when they are covered in black flames.

 

Then we also have the Unburdened, which according to Unremembered Empire, are Erebus' own creation and going by the descriptions in Censure, they cover themselves in Colchisian script and after enough bloodshed, become possessed and while the body permanently mutates, the Astartes reigns supreme.

[Russ Brother 92]

So that means in effect - three very different variations of possessed... I like this - especially those Luperci.

[Kol Saresk]

So that means in effect - three very different variations of possessed... I like this - especially those Luperci.

At least. If we count Daemonworld, Index Chaotica: Possessed as well as the Crimson Slaughter, the number jumps to six. Seven if we want to count the Inquisitorial daemonhosts.

 

EDIT: I forgot about the Secondborn from the Abaddon short. That makes it eight, that we know of.