Template and blast weapons who is hit?

[thepowerofwar]

From what I have read (unless I am missing it some where) the only reference to what is hit is what is underneath the Template.  So like what level a model is on in a ruin for example no longer is an issue.  If any one know of a page reference  that states anything different would you post it.  Thanks because I feel like I am blind

[Kristoff]

Wound Allocation remains the same, though, so it is possible, if everything is placed just right, to Wound something that was never under a Template. So if the unTemplated model was closer to the shooter, but the angle of the Template put more models away from the closer model, then he would get burned by an attack not aimed at him.

 

But as to the other part, yeah, Blasts and Templates are now 2-D and do not recognize a height limit at this time, from what I understand.

[Nusquam]

That's what I thought at first too when I heard this. The first time I checked this I thought it was every model you could see underneath the template. So say there are 3 models on the top, 2 on the middle and 2 on the bottom. You target a model on top and get a direct hit and look from above. You can see all three models on the top floor and part of one on the second floor and none on the bottom due to the floor blocking the other 3. So you get 4 hits. Made some sense as the explosion could rain down on those below.

 

Now I read page 12 and in bold it says "A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially underneath the template or blast marker." So it seems that it it only matters if the unit is under it, regardless of hieght. Which isn't too bad if the ruin in question has only 1 additional floor and if you treat the marker as sphere. Though for models across the three floors of one of the GW scenery buildings it makes less sense. Especially if you consider that if you target the middle floor which might have more models you hit that floor and below. But then say that unit has fewer guys on top and target them you hit all 3 floors.

 

HIWPI(since these rules seem to be streamlined and simplified from 6th to make it easier on new players; leaving room for more vet players to adjust rules as they deem necessary IMHO) is treat the blast as spheres, hold it vertically to see what it hits above and below after it's final position is determined. The bigger the blast marker, the more larger the explosion thus it could hit a few different floors. If it collapsed the building I could see targeting the top hitting everything, but as it is now seems just like an exploit.

[Polythemus]

I recently played a game where this was an issue. so what we're saying here is that each blast marker's final position is determined, and then you look down through it to see how many models are visible. this means that you sort of treat blast weapons firing into multi level ruins like barrage, except that the direction of the shot is coming from the firer and models are removed from the front. whereby being under an overhang gives you protection from a blast weapon. the whole "...even if those models are not within the firer's line of sight" clause is to account for scattered blasts whose final position has moved behind solid walls out of LOS. You still have to be visible under the template to be hit by it, right?

[Nusquam]

Not just visible but underneath it regardless if you can actually see them from above-down according to page 12.

[Brother_Marius]

Yeah this is weird. It's like GW just forgot to add the rules about how to handle blast or hits on a unit that is scattered over multiple stories in a building. 

[Ozshock]

the forgot to copy paste that page...>.>

[Brother Casman]

Seeing as ruins are mentioned but reduced to two lines of rules in 7th, I really don't think it's a copy-paste error. If you're under the template, you get hit. If you're inside a ruin, you get a cover save, unless the weapon ignores cover. Done and done.

[Nusquam]

That's not wrong, it's how it's less detailed and has ore room for exploitation. I don't know why rules would get less specific for this, but more restrictive for others. Especially when it was so detailed in 6th. If you're on top of a Shrine of the Aquila and throw say a frag grenade at a small group of havocs you're trying to finish off and there happens to be a huge group cultist underneath the bottom floor(so more than 8" of vertical height and through two floors) you can end p hitting 5 cultists. This seems extreme compared to 6th.

 

I just realized; use a vortex weapon on top of a ruin and it kills anything below, even if it's over two feet of distance and has 10 floors. Or phosphex. But only if it's on top.

 

Blasts went from fixed height (one level/floor) cylindrical area of influence to an infinitely tall cylinder regardless of strength or type of weapon so long as you aim high. That is, without a doubt, a game mechanic and susceptible to exploitation.

 

Along the same lines as the nob biker character musical wounds fiasco. Only this time you don't want to occupy multiple levels of a ruin or else you can have upwards of 10+ additional wounds done to your models just because they are below another unit. Even if it is a tiny frag grenade.

[Brother_Marius]

That's not wrong, it's how it's less detailed and has ore room for exploitation. I don't know why rules would get less specific for this, but more restrictive for others. Especially when it was so detailed in 6th. If you're on top of a Shrine of the Aquila and throw say a frag grenade at a small group of havocs you're trying to finish off and there happens to be a huge group cultist underneath the bottom floor(so more than 8" of vertical height and through two floors) you can end p hitting 5 cultists. This seems extreme compared to 6th.

 

I just realized; use a vortex weapon on top of a ruin and it kills anything below, even if it's over two feet of distance and has 10 floors. Or phosphex. But only if it's on top.

 

Blasts went from fixed height (one level/floor) cylindrical area of influence to an infinitely tall cylinder regardless of strength or type of weapon so long as you aim high. That is, without a doubt, a game mechanic and susceptible to exploitation.

 

Along the same lines as the nob biker character musical wounds fiasco. Only this time you don't want to occupy multiple levels of a ruin or else you can have upwards of 10+ additional wounds done to your models just because they are below another unit. Even if it is a tiny frag grenade.

 

Yes this is a perfect explanation of why the current RAW is worded as if they didnt put enough thought into it. I'm quite sure they will FAQ it to be either affecting just 1 level or only affecting those models you can see when looking down the template. 

[Seahawk]

Considering they made new planetstrike rules with the campaign book, perhaps they left out all the buildings rules so that they can write up a new cities of death set, and then people won't complain because the rules are only printed once instead of twice.

 

Instead, we'll complain that we didn't have any for such a period of time, but hey maybe they'll catch on.

[Brother Casman]

Considering they made new planetstrike rules with the campaign book, perhaps they left out all the buildings rules so that they can write up a new cities of death set, and then people won't complain because the rules are only printed once instead of twice.

 

Instead, we'll complain that we didn't have any for such a period of time, but hey maybe they'll catch on.

I have to admit, I'm kind of hopeful this is the case. I had a lot of fun playing Cities of Death.

[Ozshock]

but hten thats another 80 bucks we have to throw GW's way cause they cant explain it with a simple parapragh in the core rules...

 

they included the core escalation rules in the BRB...why not the rules covering buildings?

 

i dont think they will make a "hgneral" rule for multiple floors, what we have is what we have to work with i reckon...
 

if a "cities of death" book comes out it will include ONLY rules for given terrain pieces...and they wont flow over to ALL ruins, terrain with floors...they will be trying to force ( well not maybe force) everyone to buy the terrain that GW sells...not supporting any other terrain that you might bring, so im guessing house rules will have to come into play somewhere along those lines as well

[Brother_Marius]

Might I add that I also cannot find any rule in 7th edition which states that indirect Barrage weapons can only hit the top level of a ruin... 

[Dam13n]

That's because the whole idea of ruins having "levels" has effectively been scrapped.  Models can still clamber up terrain, and that'll affect line of sight and distances for shooting/assaulting etc however the levels are now little more than somewhere to place the model to represent where it is within the terrain.

 

However, for the purposes of blasts and barrages, terrain is now effectively flat, regardless of whether it has levels or not.  The counter balance being that the models contained within get a 4+ cover regardless of line of sight.

 

For those who object to it, the option of re-introducing the 6th edition level rules as a homegrown/house rule is perfectly fine.  But if you wish to play by RAW then stacking models across multiple levels of a ruin does make you more susceptible to blast/barrage weapons.

 

Those are the rules as they stand.  Either adapt your tactics to them, or agree with your peers to change the rules.  Those are the options.

[Morollan]

Can I just clarify. If a model in a ruin is completely out of LOS from a firer (behind a solid wall, for example) but under a template, it can still be hit and wounded even by non-barrage blast weapons?

[MisterDutch]

Can I just clarify. If a model in a ruin is completely out of LOS from a firer (behind a solid wall, for example) but under a template, it can still be hit and wounded even by non-barrage blast weapons?

Yes it says on page 158 that units out of LOS are both hit by the blast and can also have wounds allocated to them. 

[Ozshock]

do you still have to see the unit to fire at it?

 

i know normal shooting needs LOS but say i shoot a flamer weapon into a building but cant see the occupants with the model...can i still fire?

[Kristoff]

do you still have to see the unit to fire at it?

 

i know normal shooting needs LOS but say i shoot a flamer weapon into a building but cant see the occupants with the model...can i still fire?

The only weapons that do not require LOS to at least one model in the unit are Barrage and weapons that ignore LOS like the Tau Smart Missile System.

[Ozshock]

i though so was just checking :)