Can a 'pure' knights list be truly competitive?

[Captain Coolpants]

The heading pretty much sums it up. Can a pure knights list (not including henchmen, inquisition or any allies) be truly competitive? Especially in this edition where there are loads of objectives and we have such a small footprint on the field. This edition seems great for blob/swarm armies to cover all objectives.

[hornywingythingy]

Without allies? No, allies shoring up inherent weaknesses is a massive part of competitive 40k in 7th. Then again I don't understand why you'd want to restrict yourself like that when going balls out so to speak. Henchmen are part of the codex, why would you not want to take them?

 

Honestly, things haven't looked better for grey knights as an army for a long time, in tournament sense they counter a lot of the scary builds and allying with guard really adds a lot.

[Adeptus]

I've always found it really hard. I have a specific idea of how the knights would operate, and that's how I try to make my army work on the tabletop. I loathe the idea of "gimmick" armies, like the psyker spam, or the masses of DCA/Crusader squads, or other armies that make extensive use of Inquisition allies. IMO, an Inquisition warband should be a small and unique retinue of carefully converted and painted models, each one with their own name and background. I can see a case being made for more extensive warbands, such as press-ganged hivers, or conscripted PDF or Arbites, but then you're not really playing Grey Knights any more.

 

I've always found it difficult to overcome the inherent weaknesses of the knights. Namely, it's hard for them to get across the table, and all their weapons are very short ranged. We're forced to trudge across the table, eating incoming fire, while our enemies back away and continue to fire at us. We have some options for getting our troops nice and close (Stormravens and Landraiders spring to mind) but we can't field those transports in enough numbers to count. It's too easy for our enemies to focus fire on those targets when they're the only threat on the table. Unless, of course, we spam cheap henchmen squads to flood the table in cheap Chimeras, but I already talked about that...

[Captain Coolpants]

I just hate henchmen. Whats the point in buying a space marine force, and only or mostly using basic humans?

What you guys think the chances of grey knights being made into a mini dex exactly like inquisition? Because we've now been made battle brothers with all imperial forces :-\

And all armies can now summon daemons, so it actually makes a lot of sense to have a grey knights presence in all imperial forces.

[jeffersonian000]

I see the next GK codex having all the Inquisition units stripped out, and the rest reworked into a SM suppliment with GK relics, special rules and unique equipment. While this isn't a favorite opinion in this forum, it does make since in that GK equipment shared with all other Chapters will gain centralized rules that are updated across the board yet still allow for the unique flavor of the Chapter. GK would go from being too expensive to use in their own codex to the actual elite Space Marines they truly are.

 

However, that is a future thing. Right now, with our 5th Ed Dex, I still run pure GK. Ghostwing, Mordrak Bomb, Shunt Punch, you name it! The only non-GK units I'd even consider are OM Inquisitors and Knight Titans. Personally, I hate the henchmen, and I refuse to use the Coteaz-Crutch just to get cheap filler so I can take half the units I want to take, when I can just not take the Crutch and field all of the units I want to take.

 

SJ

[Quozzo]

I just hate henchmen. Whats the point in buying a space marine force, and only or mostly using basic humans?

What you guys think the chances of grey knights being made into a mini dex exactly like inquisition? Because we've now been made battle brothers with all imperial forces :-\

And all armies can now summon daemons, so it actually makes a lot of sense to have a grey knights presence in all imperial forces.

I think the chances of us becoming a mini-dex are slim to none, especially as we are rumoured to be the next, or second next codex released. There is literally no point as all the Imperium has battle brother GK's. C:I is like C:LotD where is it based around 1 unit in another codex. C:I is too except for being able to upgrade one unit to be the "sergeant", the henchmen come with their mandatory HQ choices. 

 

I think henchnmen might be taken out of our next codex but if anything they will just update the rules to those found in C:I.

[Captain Coolpants]

Glad to see others with a hatred of henchmen lol

Although making a mini dex out of us does kinda make sense, I really hope it doesn't happen though....

 

 

But anyway! I'm yet to try a successful shunt list! Do you go unbound with interceptors? Or do you use two 5 man strikes to use your troop slots and fill the rest of your points on mordrak and interceptors/dreadknights?

[Quozzo]

How does it make sense? They would need to retcon most of our fluff if it was only a mini-dex, but i digress.

 

With a shunt list i find that cheaper troops allowing for more interceptors/dreadknights is a good thing. You can even start them on the table too and scout them up 6" if the opponent has his army at the front line of his deployment zone. Otherwise just use them as objective grabbers when they come in from reserves. Using Modrak is hit or miss ironically. If the opponent has interceptor then he is the only one that will trigger it for every unit that has interceptor, but he is great at getting IC's up the table to join in the fray.

 

If you going for unbound then throw everything I said out of the window, take 7 dreadknights or 25 psycannon inquisitors on mordrak or a mix :P

[IndigoJack]

Bah, I don't get the henchman hate. If you think of GKs as a codex of grey knights it might make sense, but I started playing GKs back when they were daemonhunters, and there were several options in that 'dex to take GEQ troops. It's actually pretty rare that the GKs take to the field in large presence. Most of the time, it's a small strike force. Also, many inquisitors have their own personal armies (though not to the extent of the Lord of Formosa) and coteaz just allows players to field a force that fits their inquisitors fluff.

 

As for competitive GKs? Not at all. They're simply too expensive, and don't have a sufficient body count. It's not hard for a lot of armies to kill 15+ space marines a turn, and terminators really aren't that much better (twice the survivability, twice the price). Pallystar is pretty much the closest thing that pure knights have to being competitive, but even then it's easily avoided and outscored. And while a shunting alpha strike list sounds good, in reality, alpha strike lists are easily countered by smart deployment. The thing drop pods have going for them, is that the transport scores now. Without that, our "shunt" lists are just going to be a gimmick, and against a savvy opponent, not very damaging turn one.

[Quozzo]

Bah, I don't get the henchman hate. If you think of GKs as a codex of grey knights it might make sense, but I started playing GKs back when they were daemonhunters, and there were several options in that 'dex to take GEQ troops. It's actually pretty rare that the GKs take to the field in large presence. Most of the time, it's a small strike force. Also, many inquisitors have their own personal armies (though not to the extent of the Lord of Formosa) and coteaz just allows players to field a force that fits their inquisitors fluff.

 

As for competitive GKs? Not at all. They're simply too expensive, and don't have a sufficient body count. It's not hard for a lot of armies to kill 15+ space marines a turn, and terminators really aren't that much better (twice the survivability, twice the price). Pallystar is pretty much the closest thing that pure knights have to being competitive, but even then it's easily avoided and outscored. And while a shunting alpha strike list sounds good, in reality, alpha strike lists are easily countered by smart deployment. The thing drop pods have going for them, is that the transport scores now. Without that, our "shunt" lists are just going to be a gimmick, and against a savvy opponent, not very damaging turn one.

I disagree. They allow the majority of the army to get up close turn one. Something the DA can't even do. They also have a 24" firing range which on top of the 30" shunt makes for a 54" threat range. If you scout the 2 troops then they even get a 36" threat range on turn one.

 

By contrast I would say the Draigowing is the least competitive list we have in 7th.

[IndigoJack]

All someone has to do is castle up some vehicles. You're going to have a hard time cracking more than 2 even with 3 interceptor squads with psycannons and psy ammo psyfleman are going to help, but again, castling is going to block a lot of LOS. Against serpent spam, your shooting will largely be ineffectual. The competitive meta is shifting to mass vehicles again, and unless you can deliver an alpha strike that can cripple your opponent turn 1, return fire is going to be pretty devastating. DA run into a similar problem, and I've already mentioned the big thing pods have going for them. I think a shunt list can work, but not in a pure GK army. Ally in some IG for manticores, your going to make your opponent think twice about castling.

 

Pallystar is fine. It's still survivable, it's just not particularly kill-y. A little invisibility goes a long way to help survivability. Again, they benefit from allies a lot, as twiggy can help you get invisibility/endurance (or both!). This army suffers from the same problem that shunt lists do, in that most opponents are going to have a lot more OS units than you and without some luck on your side, will simply out score you.

[Gentlemanloser]

This is one of the main things I hate with recent 40k.  Random Lists.  Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers.

 

You have a Deathstar Paladin unit, with Tiggy.

 

Pregame, you roll, hoping for Invisibility and Endurance.

 

The Dice God loves you, and you get both!  *BAMPH*  You have your uber Deathstar of doom, and go to town at full power!!!

 

The Dice God hates you and you get neither.  *SUCK*.  You're Deathstar is impotent, it's going to be Krak'ed to death by ID.  And the game will be over before it's begun.

 

Might just as well forfeit.  Pack up and find another game.

 

Random that has such an impact on the game.  Not fun.  Never fun.

[Quozzo]

All someone has to do is castle up some vehicles. You're going to have a hard time cracking more than 2 even with 3 interceptor squads with psycannons and psy ammo psyfleman are going to help, but again, castling is going to block a lot of LOS. Against serpent spam, your shooting will largely be ineffectual. The competitive meta is shifting to mass vehicles again, and unless you can deliver an alpha strike that can cripple your opponent turn 1, return fire is going to be pretty devastating. DA run into a similar problem, and I've already mentioned the big thing pods have going for them. I think a shunt list can work, but not in a pure GK army. Ally in some IG for manticores, your going to make your opponent think twice about castling.

 

Pallystar is fine. It's still survivable, it's just not particularly kill-y. A little invisibility goes a long way to help survivability. Again, they benefit from allies a lot, as twiggy can help you get invisibility/endurance (or both!). This army suffers from the same problem that shunt lists do, in that most opponents are going to have a lot more OS units than you and without some luck on your side, will simply out score you.

Serpent spam will cause a lot of lists to be ineffective. To deal with vehicles you take hammers and dreadknights.

[march10k]

I agree about allies...why ask whether GK can compete without them under the assumption that your opponent will be using them.  Might as well ask how competitive C:UM is if you limit them to taking scouts as troops, or tau that reject broadsides.  If you choose not to consider some of the options that GW is giving you, you are going to be less competitive.  

 

/edit/That said, I think PAGK can be competitive.  You have to avoid the expensive/sexy stuff.  6x250 points gets you 16 deepstriking superscorers with 30 points left to spend after psybolt ammo, and you can still squeeze in a psyfleman and an HQ.  60 marines with force weapons and S5 shooting generating ~15 warp charges...I'd call that competitive.  You'll have to rely on melee for tank hunting, and it's certainly not broken the way fateweaver+hounds or jetseerstar is, but it'll give a lot of competitive lists fits.  If your definition of competitive is "autowin," then competitive doesn't exist.  If your definition is "wins more often than not in a competitive environment," then I'd say combat-squadded strike spam is competitive.  You can put a pair of psycannons in one demisquad and camp objectives while the other demi-squad, with a couple halberds, maneuvers (perhaps after deepstriking?).  

[Valerian]

What you guys think the chances of grey knights being made into a mini dex exactly like inquisition?

Somewhere around 0%

 

V

[IndigoJack]

So you're saying there's a chance then