A better 40k chaos codex design

[Black Cohort]

In the next few weeks the "A better 40k" team will be starting to work on our version of the chaos codex. As we have also re-written the core rules, no flyers, fortifications or lords of war will be in the codex. Challenges have also been removed from our core rules.

 

What do you feel is unnecessary in the current codex?

 

What do you think is missing from the current codex?

 

What should be changed to make more sense? (either in game or background)

 

Our current plans include

2 tiers of mark for each god, a normal mark and a "cult" mark. Cult marks may not be available to all units but will definitely include terminators. What do you think the rules for each mark and cult mark should be?

 

possibly an undivided mark

 

Something similar to codex marines chapter tactics, It will likely not be explicitly thousand sons or world eaters legion tactics. But the plan is to be able to represent all legions using these rules. That being said, what types of warband tactics should there be in the codex?

 

drop pod access (perhaps through a warband tactic)

 

Core rules

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ljQxSaasFTw0GX7ftvOe87eUgJXJt5G-M1Ymf6jxyC0/

 

Discussion

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/291523-creating-a-better-40k-initial-version-of-rules-finished/

 

Loyalist codex

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t7nl6t8-yMSp5VLJRrtS0Pyq1EpEq6FWZLumMSrWUNA/

[Forté]

I'm sure this was done recently.

[Excessus]

There is always someone, somewhere working on a codex rewrite...

[Warsmith Aznable]

As we have also re-written the core rules, no flyers, fortifications or lords of war will be in the codex. Challenges have also been removed from our core rules.

You're playing a completely different game from the rest of us, then. I'm not sure how to make suggestions that being the case. It sounds like you want to play an earlier edition more than you want to make the current edition better.

 

Also this gets done once or twice a year like clockwork and never seems to catch on, so I'd really suggest writing it however you and your mates you play with think makes sense. It sounds like you have a very solid idea where you want it to go already.

[hornywingythingy]

 

As we have also re-written the core rules, no flyers, fortifications or lords of war will be in the codex. Challenges have also been removed from our core rules.

You're playing a completely different game from the rest of us, then. I'm not sure how to make suggestions that being the case. It sounds like you want to play an earlier edition more than you want to make the current edition better.

 

Also this gets done once or twice a year like clockwork and never seems to catch on, so I'd really suggest writing it however you and your mates you play with think makes sense. It sounds like you have a very solid idea where you want it to go already.

Not to ever tell anyone not to do something, but you guys sound like you should pick up 3.5 and the third ed rulebook, just play that and save yourselves a lot of time and pain.

 

This codex is what we have, as is seventh, to quote something said to nid players lots, adapt and evolve.

[TheDevourer]

I have something similar running if you or anyone else are interested in exchanging ideas i'm more than willing to send you my work and explain ideas behind some choices. I also have some 50+ test games completed with this codex in a competetive tourny group in germany and so far all results have been fairly decent. 

[incinerator950]

 

 

As we have also re-written the core rules, no flyers, fortifications or lords of war will be in the codex. Challenges have also been removed from our core rules.

You're playing a completely different game from the rest of us, then. I'm not sure how to make suggestions that being the case. It sounds like you want to play an earlier edition more than you want to make the current edition better.

 

Also this gets done once or twice a year like clockwork and never seems to catch on, so I'd really suggest writing it however you and your mates you play with think makes sense. It sounds like you have a very solid idea where you want it to go already.

Not to ever tell anyone not to do something, but you guys sound like you should pick up 3.5 and the third ed rulebook, just play that and save yourselves a lot of time and pain.

 

This codex is what we have, as is seventh, to quote something said to nid players lots, adapt and evolve.

The last time I had that sort of conversation, I burried another player in plasma and proceeded to ruin a few lobbies.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Better and varied transports options.

 

More Synergies with our Demon Brethrens.

 

Lords that are truely the Paragon of their God.

 

A true difference for Chosen of a specific Legion/Mark, having Khorne Chosen been WS4, and grunts Zerkers WS5, never made sens for me.

 

Chaos Shields new item, give the model the Deamon rule, with a 4++ save, this can be affected with all that affects Deamons..., good or Characters, awesome on termies.

 

Divide the Helbrut into 2 units; classic Chaos Dreadnought, same profil and Options has actual Helbrut, then the Real Helbrut, with Armor 13 and Deamon or something else.

 

Really never made sens when you look at a Sm Dread and a CSm Helbrut, the visual gap that there is between the two, and that despite that, they are still kinda the same unit.

 

Infernal Engines rez...

 

Adding "Buffs" or "Warp Power" to Khorne Lords, like special CC attacks or something to compensate for the loose of Psy powers.

 

Adding an utility Character with the base statline of the Dark Apostle, can field 3 or more tactical roles; pay xx points, model become Dark Apostle, xxpts Becomes a Warpsmith, XXpts Becomes a Chaoschimist( Alchimist of Chaos...)-Apotochary-ish character, they are HQ, but don't take HQ slots, you can have 3 per HQ choice and they can join any unmarked, or with th apporiate mark units.

[maverike_prime]

A fan-dex for Chaos is hardly a new idea. Devourer is working on one, I've seen at least 2 others on other forums recently and then I'm working on one... well 3 but that's besides the point. if you will excuse me playing devils advocate for a bit, what will make your fan-dex any better/worse then any one elses?

[Black Cohort]

A fan-dex for Chaos is hardly a new idea. Devourer is working on one, I've seen at least 2 others on other forums recently and then I'm working on one... well 3 but that's besides the point. if you will excuse me playing devils advocate for a bit, what will make your fan-dex any better/worse then any one elses?

Because unlike most people who re-writing the chaos dex because they don't like how GW treated chaos, I am doing it because I dislike how GW is treating 40k and re-doing everything. Chaos just happens to be next on the to do list.

[daboarder]

First rule of community editions:

 

NEVER TAKE PEOPLES TOYS AWAY

 

feel free to add or change, but telling people "no you cannot use those/ have that option because I feel it is bad" is the surest way to see your project fail.

[qyntius]

I would like to see cheaper or more resilient khorne berserkers to fit their overwhelming suicidal nature. Also Lucius needs something he's better at than the other HQ's, perhaps you can properly display his duelist skill and make him an enemy HQ hunter.

[daboarder]

A good way of improving lucius would be something a good ic killer weapon combod with preventing opponent's from declinging. Have hime with less attacks than say Khârn. But each of them is more deadly to multi wound models

[the jeske]

From the way last 4 chaos codex look like and how design looks for other factions , I highly doubt that a 7th or 8th ed chaos codex is going to be much different . They are just the way GW wants them to be .

The only big difference could be in codex formations the way orks have them , and even in the case of those I doubt we will see  legion in any form.

[maverike_prime]

First rule of community editions:

 

NEVER TAKE PEOPLES TOYS AWAY

 

feel free to add or change, but telling people "no you cannot use those/ have that option because I feel it is bad" is the surest way to see your project fail.

 

second rule: be ready to be accused of doing exactly that weather you've actually done it or not.

 

Seriously, I still have people angry at me because they think I said I was taking away T6 bikers.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm curious if your new chaos space marines codex is going to be mostly pure marines a lot like our current codex, with most units being marines/chaotic versions of loyalist units, or if you want to try and create a true "forces of chaos" codex that would include daemons, non marine renegades, a wide range of daemon weapons and so on. Cause I think that's what GW misses. It's possible to make that forces of chaos army but you need to use FW which gets pricey.

[Black Cohort]

I'm curious if your new chaos space marines codex is going to be mostly pure marines a lot like our current codex, with most units being marines/chaotic versions of loyalist units, or if you want to try and create a true "forces of chaos" codex that would include daemons, non marine renegades, a wide range of daemon weapons and so on. Cause I think that's what GW misses. It's possible to make that forces of chaos army but you need to use FW which gets pricey.

I am leaning towards calling it mortals of chaos, daemons I think need a separate but linked codex. Traitor guard will probably be done after regular guard is and also be linked. Still a mortals of chaos codex can definitely include some non-astartes units.

[Lord Asvaldir]

That's sounds like a good idea and a codex worth making.

 

With that in mind, I'd split cultists into renegade guardsmen and your ill equipped fanatical cultists who could just be any former Imperial citizen. The guardsmen would probably have Las guns with a few weapon upgrade options while the cultists would be mainly just ccw+autopistol.

 

And for the Marines half of army, when you're making tactics for the separate traitor legions I'd consider dividing recent renegade chapters and the old traitor legions. Renegades would have more access to recent space marine units like the razorback and the storm talon, but would miss out on the more powerful demonic engines/artifacts and more potent chaos rewards and mutations available to the traitor legions.

 

Just food for thought.

[Sception]

Really?  No fliers?  I would miss the drake.  Not because it's op, it's not even all that good any more, but because it's freaking awesome, conceptually.

 

Anyway, main things needed/missing:

 

basically all our power armored infantry need to be rebalanced in some way, and in particular some meaningful universal army rules.

 

More meaningful vet upgrades.

 

 

infantry assault units really need a better/more affordable assault transport option, unless your core rule changes have gone back to allowing assaults from rhinos.

 

Chaos drop pods (or working deadclaw rules).  Come on, they're a major part of our fluff, and should never have been a 'loyalist only' thing to begin with.

 

DEEP STRIKE MITIGATION NEEDED FOR TERMINATORS - big deep striking chaos termie retinues are iconic for the faction, but nigh unworkable without homing beacons or something with similar functionality - and no, the Dimensional Key does not count.  Access to homing beacon-ish items or options in squads would also significantly help our interaction with our battle brothers, which is currently lacking due to the inability for our characters to join each others' units.

 

 

 

 

=====================

 

Suggestions for possible army rules:

 

"Chaos Marines: All chaos marines hate the lmperium and its citizens, else they would never have turned from the Emperor's light.  It is their undying hatred of the Imperium that sustains them through centuries of constant warfare and suffering.  Further, without the yolk of duty to maintain their discipline, all chaos marines grow prideful and intractable.  Only the most tyrannical of commanders can hope to lead them, and only the most terrible of foes can shake their resolve.  Units with the 'chaos marines' rule have the Stubborn and Hatred: Armies of the Imperium special rules."  This would go a ways towards re-balancing the gap caused by the lack of ATSKNF, and would subtly reinforce the faction's melee leaning, since both stubborn and hatred are rules that only come into effect in close combat.  Obviously non-CSM units in the army (cultists, perhaps warp smiths if they're re-branded as Dark Mech agents rather than Chaos tech marines, etc) would not have this rule.

 

 

re: tier 2 'cult' marks.  My preference would be to fold those into a set of selectable veteran skills for units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade, which I would rewrite as follows:

 

Veterans of the Long War: Time flows strangely near the warp, and for those who choose or are forced to live within massive warp storms like the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom this is especially true.  Centuries can pass like sand through fingertips, or single moments can be calcified into permanent scars in the fabric of the warp.  Even were this not the case, the Gods of Chaos have it within their power to preserve the lives of their servants long past their normal span - even indefinitely.  As such, the oldest and most terrible among the Chaos Marines have been battling the Imperium for many thousands of years - some are even the very same traitor marines who made war on the Emperor during the Horus Heresy.  How the centuries have changed these dread warriors varies widely, but all have been desensitized to the horrors of the warp, and all have been twisted both inside and out by Exposure to the Chaos Gods, projecting a tangible aura of corruption with simultaneously sickens and fascinates the weak minded.  Models with the 'Veterans of the Long War' upgrade cause Fear and are immune to Fear in turn.  In addition, they must select one veteran skill from the list of those available to them.

 

Veteran Skills: veteran skills represent a mixture of rare and exotic equipment, bizarre physical mutation, and several lifetimes worth of battlefield experience acquired by those Chaos Marines who manage to survive centuries of constant warfare and warp exposure.  Units and characters with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade may purchase one of the following veteran skills.  Note that not all skills may be available to all units  Each unit entry will indicate which veteran skills may be purchased by that unit.

 

vet skills:

- Psycho Surgery (noise marines; must purchase mark of slaanesh)

- Rubric of Ahriman (thousand sons; must purchase mark of tzeentch)

- Butcher's Nails (berserkers; must purchase mark of khorne)

- Destroyer Virus (plague marines; must purchase mark of nurgle)

- Infiltrate (bulky models and non-infantry models gain outflank instead)

- Black Crusader (Crusader + Preferred Enemy: Armies of the Imperium)

- Dark Faith (Zealot +re-roll missed attacks in all rounds of close combat against armies of the Imperium).

- Hit and Run

- Armorbane (does this normally apply to fortifications as well?  if not, then it does here)

- Feel No Pain

- Relentless

 

I'm not sure what the cult skills would do exactly.  They can't be too elaborate, or the book would become an unmanageable tangle of rules.  The cult skills would not all grant fearless (though psycho surgery might, among other things), though cult marines would still be stubborn by virtue of being chaos marines, and other methods of fearlessness would be available - such as attaching a fearless IC.  Cult marines from the cult legions could purchase dark faith as a second vet skill as well, see below.

 

 

Chaos Marine Subfactions:

There is considerable diversity among the warbands of the chaos marines, which range from hardened ancient warriors to recent renegades still carrying with them modern imperial technologies.  Some warbands can trace a direct line back to companies of the original Traitor Legions, while others of more nebulous heritage may choose to take up those banners simply for the power the name brings.  Any Chaos Space Marine detachment may choose to follow the special rules and restrictions of one of the following Subfactions.  Note that these rules are optional, even for warbands of the chosen Legions.  It is, for instance, entirely acceptable to play a World Eaters warband using the normal Codex: Chaos Space Marines rules, or a warband of recent recruits to the Black Legion using the Renegades rules.  Just be sure to let your opponent know what if any subfaction rules you are using within any given Chaos Space Marine detachment before deployment.  If your army includes multiple Chaos Marine detachments using different subfaction rules, then there should be some visual queue, such as different color schemes or iconography, to distinguish them.

 

Black Legion: Tracing its origin back to the Sons of Horus Legion, the Black Legion as fought back from the brink of extinction to become the largest and most diverse of the modern chaos legions, and the most dedicated to the destruction of the Imperium.  The success of the Black Legion can be laid at the feet of their warmaster, Abaddon the Despoiler, whose hatred, bitterness, and sheer force of will has driven the Black Legion through a series of stunning victories and devastating Black Crusades against the Imperium.  The Black Legion only continues to grow stronger as more and more warlords swear their forces to Abaddon's banner in the buildup to his 13th Black Crusade.  Units in a Black Legion detachment with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade must select the 'black crusader' veteran skill if possible, but may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

World Eaters: Dedicated to Khorne, World Eaters warbands will not suffer devotees of other gods among their number, though some use unaligned specialists in battlefield roles where the blessings of the Blood God are counterproductive.  World Eaters warbands are known for their Berzerkers - for there are few outside of the World Eaters with the knowledge or expertise needed to implant the Butcher's Nails without killing the subject.  There is little cohesion between disparate World Eaters warbands, the various warlords of their legions follow the path of blood and battle wherever it will take them, but when their primarch calls the world eaters answer in force, to the doom of entire systems. A World eaters detachment may not include aligned units except those aligned to Khorne.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade in a World Eaters detachment must select the 'Butcher's Nails' veteran skill if possible, but pay a reduced price and may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Emperor's Children: Chosen worshippers of Slaanesh, warbands of the Emperor's Children do not tolerate worshippers of other gods.  The original Legion was scattered into disperate warbands during inter-Legion wars in the Eye of Terror, but a few charismatic warlords such as Lucius the Eternal are attempting to re-forge the Legion. However, the champions of Slaanesh are an especially prideful and jealous lot, making any bids towards unification a near impossible task.  The daemon primarch Fulgrim could unite the Children with a word, but for the moment he seems content to see how the rivalries between his Children play out. An Emperor's Children detachment may not include aligned units except those aligned to Slaanesh.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade in an Emperor's Children detachment must select the 'Psycho Surgery' veteran skill if possible, but pay a reduced price and may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Thousand Sons: The Thousand Sons were ravaged before, during, and after the Heresy, until only a fraction of their original number remained.  They seemed on the brink of Extinction, until the Sorcerer Ahriman cast his dread Rubric, enhancing the powers of the Legions psykers, but reducing those without the gift to dust, the remains of their spirits animating their hollow armor as lifeless automatons.  The rubric also freed the Legion from mutation, aging, and death itself - the spirits of destroyed automatons can be bound to new suits of armor, and even the sorcerers can be restored to life with the proper rituals and sacrifices.  While Ahriman's cabal was banished and scattered throughout the Eye of Terror, the primarch Magnus has been slowly working to rebuild his Legion for the glory of Tzeentch.  A Thousand Sons detachment may not include aligned units except those aligned to Tzeentch.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade in a Thousand Sons detachment must select the 'Rubric of Ahriman' veteran skill if possible,  but pay a reduced price and may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Death Guard:  Harbingers of death and decay, the Death Guard are Nurgle's greatest tool for spreading disease through the galaxy.  Though the Death Guard are not, as a rule, picky in the company they keep, few who are not themselves blessed by Nurgle can stand their noxious presence, for the Plague Marines of the Death Guard are the primary carriers of the Destroyer Virus - a disease similar in nature to the Zombie Plague, yet so fearsome and virulent that even the heightened immune systems of space marines provides no defense.  A Death Guard detachment may not include aligned units except those aligned to Nurgle.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade in a Death Guard detachment must select the 'Destroyer Virus' veteran skill if possible, but pay a reduced price and may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Alpha Legion: Most elusive and mysterious of all Chaos Marine Legions, the Alpha Legion did not retreat to the Eye of Terror following the end of the Horus Heresy and the death of their primarch Alpharius.  Rather, they scattered to the four corners of the galaxy, went into hiding, and continued to wage a war of sabotage against the Imperium in subterfuge.  The Alpha Legion eschews chaos worship, though they have been known to ferment chaos cults on Imperial worlds.  The modern Alpha Legion operates as a series of terrorist cells, with a chain of command that can be impossible to trace.  Alpha Legion detachments may not include aligned units with the 'Chaos Marines' special rule.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade that purchase the 'infiltrate' veteran skill may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  If your warlord is chosen from an Alpha Legion detachment, it gains the following rule: If the warlord is destroyed during the game, but there is another character available in the Alpha Legion detachment, roll a d6.  On a 1-3, your warlord counts as destroyed as usual.  On a 4-6, nominate another character in the detachment, that character is now your warlord, with the same warlord trait as your original character.  The enemy does not count as slaying your warlord, but may still gain points for killing the original character (ie, the enemy would not gain 'slay the warlord', but might still earn a kill point for destroying a unit).  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Iron Warriors: Masters of seige warfare, the Iron Warriors favor the construction of vast fortresses, though their true talent is in tearing down the fortifications of their enemies. Iron Warriors commanders are distrustful and contentious by nature, even by the standards of Chaos Marines, and the Iron Warriors Legion might have broken up in the centuries following the Heresy, were it not for the Indomitable will of their daemon primarch Peturabo, who tolerates no breach in discipline, and suffers his legion to follow no master but himself.   The detachment may not include aligned units.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade that purchase the 'armourbane' veteran skill may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All units with the veterans of the long war upgrade in your army gain move through cover: ruins, regardless of the veteran skill they select.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Night Lords:  The Night Lords were always a fractious legion, and following the death of their primarch they scattered into a multitude of splinter warbands.  Night Lords are selfish by nature.  Few respect any higher power or authority than themselves, and most fight only for personal gain and pleasure.  They revel in fear and confusion, some so twisted that they literally feast on the fear of their victims.  Night Lords combat tactics emphasize lightning raids - striking from the dead of night to deal as much damage as possible before breaking the assault off as quickly as it started to disappear before reinforcements can respond.  Night Lords detachment may not include aligned units.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade in a Night Lords detachment that purchase the 'Hit and Run' veteran skill, may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All units with the veterans of the long war upgrade in a Night Lords detachment impose a -1 penalty on enemy fear tests against them and gain the night vision special rule, regardless of what veteran skill they select.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Word Bearers: Like the Black Legion, the modern Word Bearers are a large and diverse force, owing to their willingness to accept all chaos worshipers and their active conversion efforts.  The Word Bearers' faith in the chaos gods, and in their greatest prophet, the Word Bearers' own primarch Lorgar, is absolute and unshakable.  That faith is their most potent armor and weapon, a zealotry that accepts no compromise in battle, neither from the enemy nor from themselves.  Units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade in a Word Bearers detachment must purchase the 'Dark Faith' veteran skill if possible, but may choose to purchase an additional veteran skill.  All HQ choices in the detachment that can do so must purchase the veterans of the long war upgrade.

 

Renegades: Not all Chaos Marine warbands can trace their origin back centuries or millenia.  Even to the present day, there are still Space Marines that break their faith and go rogue.  Though usually when space marines fall it is just a one or two individuals pushed past their superhuman breaking point, sometimes an entire company or chapter will fall to chaos at once, taking with them their modern Imperial weaponry. Such renegade space marine forces are generally hunted down by the Imperium, and those that manage to escape to Chaos held space often find their technology stolen and sold to the dark mechanicus and their soldiers forcibly conscripted by more established chaos warbands.  However, a few, like Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs, manage to survive and claim their own territory.  A Renegades detachment may not include units with the 'veterans of the long war' upgrade.  If your warlord is chosen from a Renegades detachment, your army gains the following special rules:  units from Renegades detachments treat units from Codex: Space Marines as battle brothers and vice versa.  Codex: Space Marines detachments in your army may not include chaplains, chapter masters, or special characters.  All units from Codex: Space Marine detachments in your army lose 'chapter tactics' and 'And They Shall Know No Fear', and instead gain the 'Chaos Marine' special rule.

[Emperors Immortals]

Well, Mal pretty much covered everything I want in Chaos 40k.

 

Except one thing.

 

"Andy Chambers...."

[incinerator950]

I want rules that justify balance, not retro marketing for new toys and the need to buy allies because someones rules were negligently or deliberately made awful.

 

Oh, and chocolate. Even Khorne wants blood filled chocolate treats.

[Slave to Darkness]

jut re do Realms of Chaos for 7th ed :D

[Lord Asvaldir]

@malisteen: really like since of those changes you suggest. Stubborn/hatred is a great way to balance the lack of not having ATSKNF, always found it slilly that when Marines go renegade they just magically become less brave despite being exposed to many horrors.

 

Renegades chapter rule is also a great way to let them take modern space marine units but not add a whole lot of units or rules.

[incinerator950]

Conceptually, the Destroyer Virus was only used on the Death Guard, and primarily resides with Typhus. There were marines converted to PMs with the zombie virus, but overall I'm not keen on making every cult choice a bland derivative of Legion Warbands/Cells/Cults/Hosts/whatever.

 

Barring pointless origin and naming conventions, I like what Mal has put down. Maybe include looted or converted Imperial vehicles rules.

[Emperors Immortals]

Remember we could get most "pre-modern"Imperial stuff with a small tax? That but no tax.

 

I suppose theres only one choice; give us freedom to choose from lots of lore fiendly choices or give us OP.

 

Its a sad joke that every single chaos unit already exists as a choice in other SM books.

 

Didnt mean to derail thread, sorry. Nice project BTW.