A better 40k chaos codex design

[Black Cohort]

Remember we could get most "pre-modern"Imperial stuff with a small tax? That but no tax.

 

I suppose theres only one choice; give us freedom to choose from lots of lore fiendly choices or give us OP.

 

Its a sad joke that every single chaos unit already exists as a choice in other SM books.

 

Didnt mean to derail thread, sorry. Nice project BTW.

You mean stuff from the forgeworld heresy books? That could probably work and is a good idea.

 

We are trying to avoid OP in all the codexes we write.

 

Obliterators have no loyalist equivalent, neither do possessed or any of the cult units.

[brother_contagion]

 

Remember we could get most "pre-modern"Imperial stuff with a small tax? That but no tax.

 

I suppose theres only one choice; give us freedom to choose from lots of lore fiendly choices or give us OP.

 

Its a sad joke that every single chaos unit already exists as a choice in other SM books.

 

Didnt mean to derail thread, sorry. Nice project BTW.

You mean stuff from the forgeworld heresy books? That could probably work and is a good idea.

 

We are trying to avoid OP in all the codexes we write.

 

Obliterators have no loyalist equivalent, neither do possessed or any of the cult units.

 

 

Centurion Devastator and Assault squads are the Loyalist equivalent of Obliterator and Mutilator squads, and you can get twice the amount of Centurions than of Obliterators or Mutilators.

[Sception]

Yeah, centurions are very much loyalist oblits. About the only things we have that our loyalist counterparts don't are daemon princes, daemon engines, and cult units, and several of our daemon engines and cult units aren't even particularly good.

[Teetengee]

As a contributor to the A better 40k project and an avid chaos player, I have some points I want to emphasize and some suggestions for the codex.

First @Cohort, could you put the links for the Loyalist Dex and Main rules docs, plus their discussion pages in the OP.

Points to emphasize.

This is a grounds up, major changes are not a problem (and are in fact needed). Flexibility is a major goal (just look at the veterans entry in the loyalist dex.

In some ways this is about a return to the simpler days of 40k (No flyers, lords of war, etc.) but it is more about creating a balanced system.

My suggestions:

I think we should take the 3.5 chaos dex and our current "A Better 40k" loyalist dex as starting points. I also think Malisteen's points should be added.

Generally we should focus on what makes chaos, fluff wise, different from loyalists (I say the nature of infighting and freedom plus warp based abilities as a few points) and how that should be reflected in crunch. (The loss of atsknf in exchange for hatred/stubborn sounds like a good start although we may want to tinker with it).

Also, since we left in centurions in the other codex to not invalidate models, we should probably leave in heldrakes but make them work like skimmers ala voidraven/razorwing of the DE codex before 6th ed dropped.

I feel that allowing discounts for certain cults is likely problematic balance and simplicity concerns. Instead we should just work hard to make sure they have solid balance without having to make them cheaper in large numbers.

 

Also, IIRC, assaults are a lot easier in the "A Better 40k" edition than in recent official editions, which will go a long way toward addressing some issues chaos has had in the past.

[Sception]

Not taking away toys should be a goal.  For instance: the forgefiend and maulerfiend are not what I would have added to the codex had the design decision been in my hands, not with the defiler and dreadnought already available.  However, not that they exist and people have them, it would be rude not to find a place for them.  As for fliers and super heavies, I understand the desire to keep them out of regular 40k, but if your project ever finishes up the codeces, I think it would be worth your time to turn your eye to an apocalypse style big game expansion that adds those things back in.

 

I suppose if you're going for a tons-of-options, build-your-own-everything design theory, the fiends could theoretically be rolled with the defiler into a single highly customizable 'daemon engine' entry.

 

That isn't necessarily the direction I would choose, though.  I remember 3.5, and in particular I remember more illegal armies than legal ones being posted due to all the tiny rules interactions and esoteric restrictions (chaos lord gear - what the limits were, and what gear counted towards what limits - was a particular sticking point).  That, and the hassle of "let me include a unit.  Hrm, where do I look for the rules?  Ok, so the unit entry with points is on one page, the bestiary with what the special rules are another, the rules for its gear and weapons in a third section, the veteran skills on a fourth page, the list of what marks it can take hidden on a fifth page between the army list and the books of chaos, what the chosen mark if any does on a sixth inside one of the books of chaos, oh, wait, the marks completely change the units options, and now I'm going to a seventh page to find their new gear.  Oh, and what legion am I playing again?"

 

Chaos players generally eventually got the hang of it - though new players were constantly tripping it up - but gods help an opponent who didn't play chaos trying to keep everything straight.

 

 

If a unit option is changing their stats, special rules, starting equipment, and equipment options, then that isn't a unit option.  That's another unit entirely, and trying to pretend otherwise only tangles your rules up with needless complication.  That was the main problem with the 3.5 CSM book.  It was awesome and powerful and fun, but it was five or six codeces depending on how you count pretending to be one book, and tying itself in knots to do so.  Literally every unit in the army was as tangled as if the loyalist marine book had presented a single 'space marine' unit, with optional 'upgrades' to make them terminators, or veterans, or assault marines, or devastators, completely re-writing their options and force org position.

 

Anyway, the problem of not shoving half a dozen completely different units into the same entry is the main reason why my own thought exercises on a homebrew CSM codex have never gotten further than what I've already posted.  What could you do for cult unit 'upgrades' that wouldn't constitute making a completely separate unit that should by all rights have it's own unit entry?  What could you do that would be small enough to comfortably sit as an 'option', yet large enough to satisfy the players of cult armies?

 

I never found an answer, and if you can't either, then you should consider abandoning the 'cult unit as upgrade' plan and instead just pump out a bunch of cult unit options.  Maybe not for every unit - I think we can survive without cult marine bikes or havocs - but for Lords, Terminators, and Veterans, at least.  Something like:

 

HQ:

 

Lord of Chaos

Lord of Khorn

Lord of Slaanesh

Lord of Nurgle

Lord of Tzeentch

Daemon Prince

Warpsmith

 

Elite:

 

Berserker Terminators

Berserkers (troops if army includes Lord of Khorne)

Rubric Terminators

Thousand Sons (troops if yadda yadda)

Sonic Terminators

Noise Marines (troops if etc)

Plague Terminators

Plague Marines (troops if etc)

Chaos Terminators

Chaos Veterans (troops if etc).

Dreadnought

Possessed

 

This is more or less the model of the 3.0 codex, after its expansion via chapter approved (which included cult terminators, legion rules, cultists, and options for daemon princes).  And yeah, that's a lot of elite slots, but in practice most CSM armies will choose a single alignment,  In which case their elites will be dreadnought, possessed, and one kind of terminators, with the like marked veterans moved to troops and the other alignment units ignored altogether, so it will be more manageable than it appears.

 

The advantage here is that by freeing the cult status from having to fit the mold of a modular option, you can do a lot more with them in terms of unique stat lines, gear, and options without tangling your rules up in 3.5 style knots.

 

In all honesty, I think starting there and expanding (as opposed to the 4.0 book which started from the 3.0 book sans chapter approved and contracted) might work better for you in the long run than starting with the 3.5 model, but you may feel differently.

[Teetengee]

I hugely agree with you malisteen, although we do have certain benefits available to us because we are doing these as web documents. We can link sections and potentially add in scripting to keep things straight (although the latter is not in the books now). In particular because of web based systems, we can have a different entry for all these groups without creating an ungainly unusuable codex purely because of the ability to link up sections. (Want Khorne units, try these, want elites how about these). Also once we create a master dex we can reformat it as many times as we want to optimize for different player factions. (For example, if someone wants to run pure khorne, they can use a much simplified dex that for instance has no sorcs or slaanesh.)

 

Also, it seems a consensus to

a. not get rid of anything model wise

b. add in cult terminators (something I have wanted for a long time), I also think we should allow cult dreads/helbrutes and dedicated vehicles.

 

EDIT: c. oh and cult lords, real ones that don't leave you asking, why are my line troops more blessed by their patron gods than my commander?

[Black Cohort]

We could easily put god specific units in their own docs to keep the main one smaller.

 

Also I updated the OP with links to the core rules and loyalist codex

[Sception]

If you're going for that route, you still might want to go for separate unit entries for cult units rather than options applied to existing units. Even more so, actually. I imagine it would be far easier and faster to script up something along the lines of "if(warlord.alignment(x)) {(hide(units(a, b, c)); show(units(x, y, z));}" and just plug in separate whole unit entries than it would be to script up something that would change the special rules, statlines, equipment, and options displayed within all the individual unit entries themselves.

 

Obviously, if you went that route, than my stencil of vet skill and subfaction rules would have to be adapted. You could still treat the cults as vet skills, by giving them the veteran rule (fear/immune to fear in my example, as a place holder), but no skill, and not allowing them to select separate vet skills unless chosen from within a cult legion subfaction detachment.

 

I don't know. Anyway, my general thoughts remain:

 

fix up army special rules

 

fix up chaos power armored units in general (ties in with above)

 

fix up vet rules/skills - either just accept chaos veterans as separate units - ie, HQs and Elites (including Elites that can be made troops) are 'veterans', with rules and stats to reflect that - or make the upgrade matter. Be aware that the latter, upgrade option is very difficult. It's hard to come up with an upgrade that is meaningful enough to suitably reflect the difference between bog standard renegades and ancient heresy veterans, yet not so good as to be an automatic choice, yet not so expensive as to make the veterans too vulnerable for their points to function. A warning - do not try to make the upgrade cost more on units it is more useful to. Trying to do that just results in the current system, where the units that thematically are most likely to be veterans - chosen, terminators, etc - are the least likely to actually take the upgrade, because it is so much worse for them. I'm tired of CSM armies where the line grunts are apparently heresy era veterans, but the elite terminators are apparently fresh recruits.

 

DEEP STRIKE MITIGATION FOR TERMINATORS. I don't care how you do it - just let champions buy homing beacons from an armory like they could in 3.5. Or make icons reduce scattering like in 4.0 or the current daemon book. Or introduce a specific purchasable 'icon of summoning' that serves as a homing beacon, so that those who want that functionality can buy it and those that don't can skip it. Or add an artifact that allows the wearer and a unit they join to deep strike without scatter. Or an alternate 'speartip assault' chaos force org/detachment structure which reduces scatter for deep striking terminators. Deep striking terminator retinues used to be iconic for this faction, but so long as we have no functional means of mitigating scatter, our terminators will be good only for msu tactics (or infiltration, if that remains an option, but infiltrating terminators never did feel thematically appropriate to me).

 

Some kind of legion or subfaction rules. It really doesn't have to be a lot - maybe some kind of preferred access to a particular vet skill if using a choosable vet skill system, as I previously described. Or maybe just have one 'veteran of the long war' upgrade, but let the actual effects of that upgrade depend on what subfaction you choose. Or maybe make it a chapter tacticsesque minor rules addition completely separate from veteran upgrades, particularly if you opt to drop veteran status as an upgrade entirely and just have 'veteran' units and 'not veteran' units.

 

Look at the Mark of Tzeentch. Honestly, all the marks could be reconsidered, but MoT especially. It's all but useless on units, and doesn't feel especially tzeentchy. On characters, it's generally overshadowed by Nurgle's +1 toughness (though that is arguably to strong). Rather than giving our faction access to better inv saves then others, it seems mostly just to lower the saves available to non-tzeentch characters. All in all, it's just a poor fit for the game. Consider instead:

 

+1 mastery level (or mastery level 1 psyker or brotherhood of psykers on non-psyker characters and units).

 

or maybe just +1 casting/dispel die during the psykic phase, (+1 extra for every 9 models in a unit).

[Teetengee]

Keep them coming mal, I really appreciate your thoughts on it. Also, I forget to mention scatter mitigation, I just sort of assumed icons would do it again.

[Sception]

That is one way to do things, and probably one of the better options. However, I do like the current standard icon bonus - the +1 combat res - both for the symmetry with fantasy and for it being a more generally applicable bonus making icons better in more units. Do consider having a selection of icons, that do different things, as with the current rule.

 

from a conversation I had with maverike about small scale homebrew detachments (as opposed to larger scale homebrew codex rewrites), here's a sketchy example of what you might consider for icons:

 

'dataslate: chaos icons', expanding on the fluff for icons (not just a banner, but the physical embodiment of a contract between the unit carrying the banner and a daemonic presence in the warp - hence why the ability is lost when the bearer dies - you can't just pick it back up, once the icon has been allowed to fall, the contract has been broken) and introducing maybe four to six new icons that any unit with the ability to take one could select (prideful icon - very cheap, basic +1 combat res bonus only; icon of summoning - homing beacon; icon of darkness - stealth & night vision; icon of the forge - 1/game r-eroll 1's to hit/wound/penetrate with shooting attacks for a round, etc).

 

Maybe also a set of 2 to 3 unique icons, of which only one could be used per army, with extra effects, like maybe a 'banner of the voices' for crimson slaughter - unique, possessed only, units within 12" of the banner with the 'slaves to the voices' rule may roll twice for the effect and choose the result they prefer, or a 'Icon of the Eye Aflame' for black legion - Bringers of Despair only, as long as both Abaddon and the icon are in the unit, the unit benefits from Abaddon's 'Mark of Chaos Ascendant')

note that I was considering this as a way to backdoor legion themes into the current rules structure, if you were to introduce such options into a structure that already had legion rules, you might pick other benefits or themes.

 

Anyway just a thought. In general, I like chaos icons - both conceptually and aesthetically. They're one of the visual queues that set chaos marine units apart form their loyalist counterparts. IMO, icon use should be encouraged by the rules, and having a variety of available options, such that no matter what unit you're taking or what your game strategy is there's an icon worth taking, is one means of doing so. Just making icons homing beacons or scatter reducers would make terminators and allied daemons work better, but if you weren't running either of those then you wouldn't have any reason to take them.

[Teetengee]

An answer for warp talons that would be fluffy and fun would be to allow them to pick a single target unit pregame that they may assault out of deepstrike. The idea came from this thread: (it still might requires some work to make warpflame strike work though).

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292856-warp-talons/

[Trevak Dal]

There is always someone, somewhere working on a codex rewrite...

 

It's too bad it won't ever actually matter-because most people will enforce the standard rules because some people will make stuff overpowered.  By sheer dint of that-it makes it somewhat pointless outside of the creator's enjoyment of doing pointless things.

[brother_contagion]

Defilers with AV13/13/11, Skyfire, and Daemon Engines being able to fire Ordinance w/o Snapfiring! Forgefeinds w/ Skyfire! Customizable Dreadnaughts! Vehicles with Marks of Chaos! Being able to take Sorcerers/Warpsmiths/Dark Apostles 2 for 1 HQ like their Daemon Herald counter parts! Chaos Space Marines ignore the Insane Heroism rule! Havocs and Marine Squads can take an Ectoplasma Cannon for a heavy weapon choice! All HQs have access to Jump Packs, Bikes, Terminator Armor, and Daemonic Steeds (except Daemon Princes)! Drop Pods! Razorbacks! Terminators w/ Storm Shields! Teleport Homers! Give Chosen access to the Armory (can take Jump Packs, Terminator Armor, Gift of Mutation, etc. including Daemonic Steeds but not Artifacts) and can take one specified USR! More Daemon weapons! A Chaos Retinue/Command Squad choice for HQs! Double the unit size of Obliterators and Mutilators! Give Fleshmetal to all HQs! Unique Chaos Land Raiders that mirror the Loyalist ones but in a Chaos flavor! Power of the Machine Spirit! Give Heldrakes the turret head back or make them a Vector Dancer! A second new flyer!

 

.... That's all I got. lol

[daboarder]

legion warband rules.....

 

mic drop

[brother_contagion]

I also think we need a non-Lord of War unit that can be taken in normal games like the Riptides, Wraithknights, Gorkanaughts, and Knight Titans. Either make the Defiler a larger model with great abilities and tougher armor, or create an entirely new unit that can meet these guys toe to toe. I'd like to see that.

[incinerator950]

Slaaneshi Subjugators? About the closest thing to a demon knight we hve, minus corrupted knights or making Lesser Brass Scorpions.

[Teetengee]

We might be able to create a generic "exalted daemon engine" for such a purpose. Although it could be fairly difficult to produce it rules that aren't able to be abused.

[Angrypantz]

legion warband rules.....

 

mic drop

That will happen when I have my renegades codex.

[Clewz]

legion rules, rare weapons and vehicles from the heresy, mark of chaos undivided

[daboarder]

 

legion warband rules.....

 

mic drop

That will happen when I have my renegades codex.

 

you kinda already do

[Teetengee]

Remember, we aren't just wishlisting here, these are things we plan on including in what boils down to a full alternate ruleset for the models we all love.

[Sception]

Have you done anything to the core rules, such as 2e style overwatch or swapped player shooting phases, that would alleviate the problems of assault-from-reserve deep strike or outflank, assaults from transports, or alpha rush gimmicks in general, such that certain chaos units could be granted such abilities without being a major problem for the game?

 

With the current rules, such gimmicks would indeed be too disruptive to allow, imo, but if players in general had options to respond to their opponents movement phase before their opponents assault phase, options generally available rather than restricted to rare special rules, then such things could be allowed again, opening up some key design space for chaos units like warp talons or dread claws.

[Hellios]

I think being able to 'chaosify' vehicles would be huge. Generally speaking, I feel our vehicles are inferior to those belonging to the Imperium. Being able to take archaic weapons, or warp-forged weapons on standard vehicles would be a simple way to make them stand out. FW has already helped out in that regard... But all we really need is basic predator and Land Raider templates with lots of weapon upgrade options.

 

Can you imagine the bale-flamer raider BWAHAHAHAHA 

[daboarder]

Just a more diverse armoury with more warpforge weapons would be GREAT!

 

I mean, it would be really easy

 

Take terminators,

Give the Heavy flamer the torrent special rule and bump it to 25 pts, boom instant relevance (without the AP3 that people dislike about the drake)

Or throw armourbane on the reaper/hades.

Give us the chance to have units lugging ectoplasm cannons

Or miniaturised versions of the soulburner petard (HUGE fan of that gun)

 

we need more of our eccentric options spread throughout the list as opposed to being only available on one or two specific units.

 

of course we wont ever get this from W proper due to their obsession with model driven rules, hell we are probably lucky we still have marks

[Teetengee]

There have been discussions about using disordered charges out of outflank and similar, so models that could assault out of reserves, although powerful, would be more expected and thus be less of a threat due to it being a regular tactical decision.