Help spending last 100 points, maybe...

[himkano]

This is my list - although I have only played one game in 7th with this list, I like it.

 

Mephisto

 

4x AMS (with 2x Landraiders and 2xLandraider Crusaders

 

2 x Furioso Dreads with claws

 

Stormraven

 

The strategy is pretty simple, landraiders screen the furioso dreads, who provide counter charge protection.  Mephisto rides the stormraven, hopefully with iron arm, and handles stuff.

 

This game, I did not get iron arm and, since my opponent had 2 greater daemons and 2 demon princes, and typhus, I did not let mephisto out of the plane until it was shot down.

 

After the game, talking to me friend, he stated that I didn't need to have 250 points to sit a plane doing nothing, and that a normal librarian with iron arm wouldn't be that much worse than mephisto (which might be true, because unless you are fighting very specific things, Str 7 and toughness 7 are roughly equal to 9's).  On that note, a lvl 2 librarian with termi armoe is 100 points cheaper than mephisto - so...

 

Do you guys think he is really worth the points, all things considered, and that he will shine in future games, or can I get more bang for my buck spending those 100 points somewhere else (and where)?

[Midnightmare]

He is worth it imho, our other HQ's suck. However he relied on wings, New he needs the 200+ python storcraven which is pricey, but worth it when he pulls it off! But if you went for a cheaper HQ, spare points on an attack bike squad with Multimeltas is a good buy.

[Demoulius]

Ive never used Mephiston so I can safely say that the other hq's work to. No matter what any naysayer might tell you <_<

They work mainly as support characters though. BA chars lack the ability to tooll their kits like vanilla marines or space wolves but our chaplains and librarians synergize very well with the rest of our forces.

That said I wouldnt know what youd want your HQ to do in that lit of yours? You say you have 4 assault squads in land raiders? How many points is this?

[himkano]

Its a 2000 point list (exactly), and that is part of the issue - if I took someone other than Mephiston, they would either sit in a landraider, because I don't think there is a unit in this list to that would be able to keep them alive.  I think Mephiston is good enough to be a unit, but in my current list, another HQ would seem more like a "tax" than a useful part of the team - I just don't know if he is 250 points worth.  I kind of like the bike idea, and if i could put my librarian on a bike, he could use his powers more (but he would also be the only non armor 13+ on the board, which means he would take all the small arms fire.

[SonOfThunder]

If you don't get Iron Arm or can't cast it, your librarian can be instakilled by plenty of weapons. And even if you do get it the libby still has only 2 wounds and a 3+ save with no invul. Plus only one mastery level, or 2 but then the difference in points gets smaller. Trying to get a mephiston out of a librarian is rather difficult. Iron Arm a Mephiston does not make ...Basically, the librarian's statline is awfully inferior to mephiston's, and biomancy won't change that, he still won't be a cc monster. A librarian is better off rolling on telepathy or divination, and fulfilling a support role. However as you say to be effective in that role he needs to be outside the LRs. And that makes him really vulnerable in your list.

If you want an HQ that performs as a solo killing machine, that's Mephiston. That said, you could change one of your ASM and Mephiston for a DC, with reclusiarch. Then you'd have one unit that can perform as a Mephiston, hitting hard any kind of target (with the right tools), and not rely on reserve rolls to make a timely appearance.It's also like 600 pts in one pack though . A Reclusiarch with a normal ASM squad will probably not perform as nicely. One good thing about the DC is that they don't score...which means you can be absolutely reckless with them and just have them do cool stuff, without worrying about sensible decisions and other nonsense . It's liberating to have one such unit in your army.

Having 4 LRs, your opponent would probably focus on the DC one, but that still leaves 3 ultrascoring raiders with their crews to capture objectives. And even on foot, the DC willl eventually get to an useful place, they can't just be ignored.

I was reluctant to try the DC feeling they were overpriced, but now that I've tried them, there's no coming back!

[Remtek]

I think you should transport Mephiston in the LR, since you have the option. He will usually be able to assault in round 2 and you can use your raider to screen him easy + the raider is still objective secured scoring. Put some ASM in the Stormraven and use it for contesting/claiming something in round 3-4-5.

 

As for the DC Reclusiarch in LR, ive tried that. My problem was the unit doing to much dmg. Most things will be wiped leaving them vulerable for shooting. You can really run them without a character since you are in the LR. Most stuff will be severly crippeled and die in the opponents assault phase using 10DC with 3 ap2/1 power weapons, rest barbone. They can't be challanged aswell, so you wont have to worry about that. 

 

I can see a reclusiarch or chaplain in TDA viable if using a drop pod. So you can use him as a screen for ML's etc, but i guess that depends on your local meta.

[SonOfThunder]

Mephiston in the Raider and ASM in the Raven for late objective grabbing sounds like a solid option. And you can try it out without buying/building more minis, just need to shuffle the transports a bit.

[Shaezus]

Personally I would put mephy in a raider, though obviously he won't be able to deploy embarked.

 

How have you been playing with your dreads? I can see them functioning in a defensive role as protection for the raiders, but I would put them in pods if you want to be aggressive with them. Swapping mephy for a libby would pay for another ASM in pod so you could drop both on turn 1 if you can find the points for two pods.

[InquisitorBlack]

For Meph to go in the raider it would involve Assault marines disembarking and Meph embarking on turn 1, which seems very slow and wasteful, especially because the footslogging marines basically become a tax.

 

He is better in the raven, and definitely better than a regular librarian + 100 points of other random things.

[InquisitorBlack]

Also, to the OP. Looking at this list, I think the fat are the dreadnoughts. That's a lot of points to spend on units that are fairly cumbersome and aren't guaranteed to do anything.

 

I think a vindicator is better. I also think making one of your barebones ASM squads into a 10 man DC squad is strong. They fill a similar role of the Furiosos, but are a lot more mobile in a Land Raider. The downside is that they give you a vulnerability to small-arms fire which you otherwise don't have.

Hence, I think I'd go with the Vindi (or even Baals)

[Shaezus]

About the mephy-in-raider thing, if you are taking a raider ASM anyway, it's not a tax but rather a discounted raider. Seeing as meph will still be able to charge on turn two there is no serious drawback.

[himkano]

Also, to the OP. Looking at this list, I think the fat are the dreadnoughts. That's a lot of points to spend on units that are fairly cumbersome and aren't guaranteed to do anything.

I see what you are saying, and I agree that the dreads are least guaranteed to do anything, unless the enemy brings drop pods or teleporting demons, because then they can engage those things better than ASM can, and I don't know that a vindi would be in a better situation than the LRs in that circumstance - but you are right that same games they do very little....

[InquisitorBlack]

 

Also, to the OP. Looking at this list, I think the fat are the dreadnoughts. That's a lot of points to spend on units that are fairly cumbersome and aren't guaranteed to do anything.

I see what you are saying, and I agree that the dreads are least guaranteed to do anything, unless the enemy brings drop pods or teleporting demons, because then they can engage those things better than ASM can, and I don't know that a vindi would be in a better situation than the LRs in that circumstance - but you are right that same games they do very little....

 

 

Having played a lot of competitive RTS and card games, I've applied a lot of that theory to Warhammer. I want units that give value from the very start, that allow me to apply pressure or get good trades most of the time. Alpha strike + long ranged units are perfect examples of units that have the potential to immediately begin to pay themselves off and swing the pendulum in your favour.

Some units are the opposite of this. Short ranged units that are easily to kill. For BA, these 'fat' units are things like footslogging infantry, jump pack DC, and in your case, dreadnoughts without a delivery system (pod or raven).

 

I understand that they perform a role, but I feel as though if you are optimising, you could easily find a better way to spend your points. I like the fact that your list denies the efficacy of all of your opponent's small arms fire, so I agree that AV13 is good. Perhaps you could cut a dreadnought and deploy one by Stormraven (with Meph). That would free up enough points for a Pred or a Stormtalon which would contribute more in turns 1-3 which are the most important.

[Xenith]

A spare 100pts in a list is very well filled with 2 mm attack bikes

[Remtek]

For Meph to go in the raider it would involve Assault marines disembarking and Meph embarking on turn 1, which seems very slow and wasteful, especially because the footslogging marines basically become a tax.

 

He is better in the raven, and definitely better than a regular librarian + 100 points of other random things.

 

You can start with the Raider empty and deploy units outside of transport (even combat squad and just put them on backfield objectives) On turn 1 any model close to an entry point will be counted as embarked. So in turn 1 you can move 6" 12" or 18" with Meph embarked in Raider. So turn 1, if you go all out that will leave you 6" from your opponents deployment zone. Turn 2 you can move 6" and disembark 6". So your 6 inches past his DZ + charge distance. 

 

Not a big fan of taking him in the stormraven. This is assault in turn 3 at best. If you fail reserve it can be even longer. 

[Demoulius]

A spare 100pts in a list is very well filled with 2 mm attack bikes

I second this. I completly forget to comment on that part of the OP's post

[Tabgoi]

Vindis are just tanks, fast vindis with siege shields are terror weapons that focus your enemies attention on them or he pays dearly. Of course you have to use them right, but you have a chance at turn one pie plates that will wreck havoc on almost any unit in the game so your opponent has to spread his forces or deal with them. Ignoring terrain test makes the move quicker and makes you more likely to get a cover save. Unfortunately we lost fast with the FAQ so I would wait for the new dex before committing to them.

[Cronhour]

Coteaz! Attach him to some missile devs with divination. Rerolls to hit and to wound versus demons from his warlord trait!

Vindis are just tanks, fast vindis with siege shields are terror weapons that focus your enemies attention on them or he pays dearly. Of course you have to use them right, but you have a chance at turn one pie plates that will wreck havoc on almost any unit in the game so your opponent has to spread his forces or deal with them. Ignoring terrain test makes the move quicker and makes you more likely to get a cover save. Unfortunately we lost fast with the FAQ so I would wait for the new dex before committing to them.

We got it back.

[Tabgoi]

Oh, cool. I have not been paying attention to seventh as much because my group still uses sixth and I cannot play at the GW shop near me. One does not allow knights and the other refuses to read the rules or abide by them, i.e. You can take an armor save, cover save, invul save, and jink save all against the same shot. Pointing out the rules does not help.