Rerolling DTW

[Ozshock]

on many posts ive been looking at regarding the psychic phase and how we "seem" to dominate it on paper im wondering how everyone came to the conclusion that dreadnoughts reroll the DTW test against powers that do not target the dreadnought (dont worry i thought the same as well until it seemed blaringly obvious lol)

 

i know the reinforced aegis rule allowing the dred to reroll DTW tests he can take, but there appears to be some confusion allowing him to do this against psychic powers that target NO unit (conjurations/Blessing etc)

 

the rule and step by step instructions for DTW are as follows:

 

to make the DTW test, first select one of your units that WAS a target of the enemies psychic power. you then expend a number of warp charges, declaring how many and remove them from your pool. Roll that many dice and apply the following modifiers:

(everyone should know modifiers)

for each result of 6+, one warp charge has been successfully nullified and as long as the total equals your opponents total then you have successfully denied the witch.

If none of your units are the target of the psychic power simply follow the same process but apply no modifiers.

 

i guess what people thought was that the phrase "follow the same process" leads you back to choosing a target to make the DTW, but that sentence is only followed if someone is the target, if noone was the target then you cant select a unit that was a target can you? which leads me to believe that you cant choose a target to make the DTW test...but i can see where people still assume to choose a target to make the test

 

what are all thoughts pertaining to this? RAW seems to state that you need to be the target of the power to make a DTW test...if there is no target then its essentially the player making the DTW test...but is GW's RAI to be that you still choose a unit to make the DTW roll?? its not really covered if noone is the target, only if someone is.  Btw grey knights are the only army i know about that can use the rule like this...so misinterpreted for max power?

[Captain Coolpants]

Well I assumed that the dreadnoughts only re-rolled dtw tests that are aiming at them, and that's how I play it because nobody really says otherwise.

 

BUT

 

When you think about it.... is a re-roll a modifier? Because for weapons, a re-roll most certainly isn't a modifier, it's an ability.

Same for regular agis, re-rolling 1s only, although it's still literally modifies the result, it's labeled as an ability for our army, like how wolves get counter attack or how white scars get skilled rider. It's not a modifier, it's an ability.

I could be misunderstanding and sounding like an ass.. But that's how I see it

[Captain Coolpants]

But then it gets confusing because it doesn't say that you choose a unit to deny a witch test if there is no target. Just says you can make one. So who's power do you use if my above post is correct?

When you consider that reinforced agis used to be a massive -4 modifier to the leadership of the enemy, letting us re-roll dtw saves now using the new version as long as the dreadnoughts on the board doesn't seem that bad really, as you'll still be needing 6s

[Quozzo]

the rule and step by step instructions for DTW are as follows:

 

to make the DTW test, first select one of your units that WAS a target of the enemies psychic power.

This. If you follow the same process for Denying blessing you must pick a unit that was the target of the power, but since none of your units were the target then you simply cannot deny any blessings at all. If that is the case then there would be no reason to include that no modifiers are used to deny blessings.

 

RAW: No-one can deny a blessing as none of your units were the target of one.

RAI: You pick a unit (that wasn't the target) and follow the rules from there, including not using any modifiers.

 

As Jbat said, some people believe that rerolling is a modifier and would thus not allow rerolling DtW anyway. But in the BRB under rerolls it specifies that rerolls use the same modifier as the original roll. So by that logic a modifier cannot be a reroll, otherwise you get recursive algorithm (or infinite loop).

[IndigoJack]

Re-rolling is not a modifier. Both re-rolls and modifiers are defined on pg. 11. Quozzo is right. RAW, denying blessings is broken. IMO, that the rules mention no modifiers allowed means that a unit is the one denying the witch. However, until it is FAQ'd either way I play it conservatively. After, GKs already have a solid chance of denying most armies anyways.

[Captain Coolpants]

What does IMO mean? I see it everywhere lol

[IndigoJack]

What does IMO mean? I see it everywhere lol

IMO - In my opinion

 

You also might see

 

IMHO - In my humble opinion

[Valerian]

In my opinion.

[Captain Coolpants]

Lmao thanks guys haha. Lots of things make complete sense to me now xD

[Ozshock]

 

the rule and step by step instructions for DTW are as follows:

 

to make the DTW test, first select one of your units that WAS a target of the enemies psychic power.

This. If you follow the same process for Denying blessing you must pick a unit that was the target of the power, but since none of your units were the target then you simply cannot deny any blessings at all. If that is the case then there would be no reason to include that no modifiers are used to deny blessings.

 

RAW: No-one can deny a blessing as none of your units were the target of one.

RAI: You pick a unit (that wasn't the target) and follow the rules from there, including not using any modifiers.

 

As Jbat said, some people believe that rerolling is a modifier and would thus not allow rerolling DtW anyway. But in the BRB under rerolls it specifies that rerolls use the same modifier as the original roll. So by that logic a modifier cannot be a reroll, otherwise you get recursive algorithm (or infinite loop).

 

 

 

this is exactly how i read it...why state that you pick a target of a unit that was the target, the state that there are no modifiers for denying blessings?  it seems to me that you still pick a target, or why would they put the line "apply no modifiers" ... SOOOOOOOO many rules have been mis worded imo that it is stupid to think that there is an easy answer

[Gentlemanloser]

I didn't think it would be possible for GW to release a rulebook with worse (less robust / concise) rules than 6th (lol at Plasma Grenades when 6th hit...).

 

GW proved me wrong.

 

7th is a mess.

[Quozzo]

I didn't think it would be possible for GW to release a rulebook with worse (less robust / concise) rules than 6th (lol at Plasma Grenades when 6th hit...).

 

GW proved me wrong.

 

7th is a mess.

Understatement of the year.