Skyfire vs Invisibility

[Kastor Krieg]

SKYFIRE

A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers, but it can only fire Snap Shots against other targets.

 

 

Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

 

Sooo, bwuh? I shoot with a Skyfire model / weapon at an Invisible Zooming Flyer / Invisible Swooping FMC - both rules are specific over the general rules of To Hit. Do I ignore both sources of Snaps "because Skyfire"?

 

What about Invisible Skimmers / Hovering Invisible Flyers / Gliding Invisible FMCs? Skyfire should ignore these Snaps as well, because they're the model type mentioned in Skyfire.

 

Thoughts? For me the interaction of these two rules is simply broken now. I don't see why Invisibility should ignore Skyfire's wording, though.

[StewRat]

Skyfire is an ability that over-rides the normal Snapshot restriction of targetting air-borne models. So, IMO, the special case of the air-borne target being Invisible reduces your ability to Snapshot.

 

This seems to me the same as a normal model with, say, a BS of 5 being reduced to hitting only on a 6 if the target is invisible.

[Kastor Krieg]

Not the case, it's not a normal model, it's a model with a Special Rule: "Skyfire". We can also say, it's an Invisible model (the target) that is hit on Snaps, but since he's, say, a Skimmer, Skyfire allows to hit him on BS. 

I know it's very likely not the designer's intent, but there's nothing indicating which way the interpretation should go. Skyfire can just as well allow to hit Flyers / FMCs and Skimmers on BS not Snaps, regardless of whether they're Invisible or Swooping/Zooming or both.

[Quixus]

Looks like an opportunity to roll off.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah, if there ever was one. But this is a fairly common situation. One of my takes would be stipulating, using the game's own structure, that there are the following "categories" of models to be hit on Snap Shots instead of BS, which then encounter the Skyfire rule:

 

model > unit > vehicle > flyer > zooming vs skyfire
model > unit > vehicle > flyer > zooming > invisible  vs skyfire

model > unit > vehicle > flyer > hovering > invisible  vs skyfire

 

model > unit > mc > fmc > swooping vs skyfire

model > unit > mc > fmc > swooping > invisible vs skyfire

model > unit > mc > fmc > gliding > invisible vs skyfire

model > unit > vehicle > skimmer > invisible vs skyfire

In all the above cases, Skyfire acts on the category well above Invisibility. It acts on the "containers" containing ALL flyers, fmc and skimmers, as per rule wording. Hence, I would stipulate Skyfire overrides Invisibility in all those cases.

[CoffeeGrunt]

There are several conditions you cycle through to see if you are being forced to Snap Shot here.

 

If firing at a Flier, you Snap Shot, unless you have Skyfire, then if you have Skyfire, you fire at full BS, unless it's a Heavy weapon and you moved, in which case you Snap Shot. If you have a Heavy Weapon and didn't move and it has Skyfire you fire at full BS, unless you went to Ground or are Pinned.

 

If you have a Heavy Weapon and didn't move or are Relentless/Slow and Purposeful, have not Gone to Ground or been Pinned, have Skyfire and are firing at an FMC in the air, you fire at full BS.

 

Unless that target has Invisibility, which overrides all of the above.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

Unless that target has Invisibility, which overrides all of the above.

Why? :)

[JamesI]

Skyfire lets you use your normal BS when shooting at flyers.  Your normal BS when shooting at Invisible models is 1 (snap shots)

[Kastor Krieg]

Skyfire lets you use your normal BS when shooting at flyers.

And FMCs and Skimmers (which do not have Hard to Hit - so there has to be another reason!).

 

Your normal BS when shooting at Invisible models is 1 (snap shots)

So what if I'm shooting at an invisible skimmer? Invisibility has me shoot at THIS skimmer at Snaps, but Skyfire has me shoot at ANY skimmers at full BS.

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

 

Invisibility has me shoot at THIS skimmer at Snaps, but Skyfire has me shoot at ANY skimmers at full BS. 

 

Specific overrides general in most logical progressions. Otherwise the ruling that all models only fire one weapon would override the MC/Multi-Tracker rule stipulating otherwise.

[Kastor Krieg]

But this "rule" is not in the ruleset. It's RAI. I'm looking for a RAW solution, I'm not interested in external input into the decision making process (external to the game itself, so "it's usually interpreted this way" is not an answer I will satisfied with).

[CoffeeGrunt]

Well, you answered your own question then. In a pure RAW interpretation, you are correct. It doesn't really make sense nor is it the answer most people would go with, but you're right...RAW.

[Raeven]

Unless that target has Invisibility, which overrides all of the above.

Why?

Snap shot rules say that any special rules that modify Snap Shots have to specifically state so.

Skyfire modifies snap shots specifically for flying models only.

Invisibility overrides Skyfire, because it adds an extra layer of shooting as a snap shot which isn't specifically overridden by the Skyfire rule.

[Kastor Krieg]

Snap shot rules say that any special rules that modify Snap Shots have to specifically state so.

Then either Skyfire does not affect Hard to Hit as well, or it affects Hard to Hit AND Invisibility. They both use Snap Shots.

Skyfire modifies snap shots specifically for flying models only.

No, it does for Flyers, for Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. There's nothing in it against modifying BS to "normal" for a Gliding (non-Hard To Hit) FMC that is Invisible. Nothing. You just hit the FMC on normal BS, regardless of anything else (no other specific factor mentioned than unit type Flyer / FMC / Skimmer). That's the only requirement that permits you to fire on full BS.

Invisibility overrides Skyfire, because it adds an extra layer of shooting as a snap shot which isn't specifically overridden by the Skyfire rule.

There's no "layers" of USRs in the rulebook. Skyfire also does not specifically refer to Hard to Hit. You want to claim that it doesn't affect Swooping / Zooming?

[Raeven]

Snap shot rule says, "The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots).  If a special rule doesn't specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the snap shot is resolved at BS1.

 

When I said Skyfire only helped against Flyers, I didn't think I needed to list every possible model option for you as you already understand the rule.  

 

My point stands.  Skyfire is specific to Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.  It does not override the penalty from being Invisible.

 

To bypass the Snap Shot imposed by Invisible, you need a special rule or Psychic power that specifically overrides Invisibility.

[Kristoff]

Snap shot rules say that any special rules that modify Snap Shots have to specifically state so.

Then either Skyfire does not affect Hard to Hit as well, or it affects Hard to Hit AND Invisibility. They both use Snap Shots.

You're trying to muddy it up. Both versions of Hard To Hit specifically calls out Skyfire as an Exception to itself. Skyfire calls itself as an exception for a case of a Unit Type, but does not provide any exception for any Psychic Powers, Movement, or other exceptions.

Invisibility overrides Skyfire, because it adds an extra layer of shooting as a snap shot which isn't specifically overridden by the Skyfire rule.

There's no "layers" of USRs in the rulebook. Skyfire also does not specifically refer to Hard to Hit. You want to claim that it doesn't affect Swooping / Zooming?

Perhaps layers is the wrong word. The fact remains Skyfire provides no provisions for overriding any other Snap Shot considerations. And in Skimmers, none at all, just provides that one from being limited when shooting at a non-flyer.

[Spacefrisian]

Do check if the unit that has cast invisibility on itself is one of those mentioned as by skyfire, afterall skyfire doesnt negate your snapshots bs when overwatching.

 

You guys think to much.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Skyfire doesn't let you Overwatch a charging FMC at full BS. Skyfire doesn't let you move and shoot at full BS either. How then does Skyfire let you override anything other than Hard To Hit?

 

If that's the case, I'm moving my Hydras 12" every turn, because apparently they no longer Snap Shot when moving at Cruising Speed because they have Skyfire.

[Kastor Krieg]

Do check if the unit that has cast invisibility on itself is one of those mentioned as by skyfire, afterall skyfire doesnt negate your snapshots bs when overwatching.

 

You guys think to much.

Yes, the FMC can charge me. It's mentioned in the Skyfire. It charges me. I overwatch. Skyfire says I shoot at FMCs at full BS. Whoops.

 

Skyfire doesn't let you Overwatch a charging FMC at full BS. Skyfire doesn't let you move and shoot at full BS either. How then does Skyfire let you override anything other than Hard To Hit?

 

If that's the case, I'm moving my Hydras 12" every turn, because apparently they no longer Snap Shot when moving at Cruising Speed because they have Skyfire.

Check above. Skyfire doesn't override Hard to Hit specifically. It allows you to shoot at BS at Flyers, FMCs and Skimmers.

 

Per RAW, yes, Skyfire allows full BS overwatch vs a charging FMC. Again, not saying it's not stupid :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Raeven's totally correct.

 

That being said;

 

 

 

Specific overrides general in most logical progressions. Otherwise the ruling that all models only fire one weapon would override the MC/Multi-Tracker rule stipulating otherwise.

 

There is no Specific > General in 40k (bar the new stipulation on the Snap Shot Rule).

 

It's only Codex > Advanced > Basic.

 

It *should* be Specific > General though.

 

Edit;

 

 

 

Check above. Skyfire doesn't override Hard to Hit specifically.

 

Which would give a case for Skyfire *not working at all*.

 

It doesn't specifically say that it either over rides Hard to Hit, or specifically state it overrides Snap Shots.

 

7th edition rules are badly written.  Worse then 6th.  It's clear this eiditon is the "do what you want, we don't care" edition from GW.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Every time I stumble across a thread like this, I want to attend a tournament even less. Ah well.

 

 

Raeven's totally correct.

 

That being said;

 

 

 

Specific overrides general in most logical progressions. Otherwise the ruling that all models only fire one weapon would override the MC/Multi-Tracker rule stipulating otherwise.

 

There is no Specific > General in 40k (bar the new stipulation on the Snap Shot Rule).

 

It's only Codex > Advanced > Basic.

 

It *should* be Specific > General though.

 

Edit;

 

 

 

Check above. Skyfire doesn't override Hard to Hit specifically.

 

Which would give a case for Skyfire *not working at all*.

 

It doesn't specifically say that it either over rides Hard to Hit, or specifically state it overrides Snap Shots.

 

7th edition rules are badly written.  Worse then 6th.  It's clear this eiditon is the "do what you want, we don't care" edition from GW.

 

Hard to Hit notes that Skyfire is the only exception, so Skyfire doesn't modify Snap Shots, but via Hard to Hit, means the Snap Shots never happen in the first place.

 

Much like Power of the Machine Spirit overrides the condition that causes Snap Shots, rather than the Snap Shots themselves.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, so Skyfire never modifies *any* Snap Shots.

 

And the way rules interact is *far* more convulted than 6th was.

 

I've said my peice on PotMS in the other thread. ;)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I stopped following that thread a while ago, as I don't run anything that uses it and the argument just started to circle. :P

[Kastor Krieg]

@CoffeeGrunt
I do not attend tournaments, I just like analyzing nuances and finding out the discrepancies, then finding out how to best fix them. Years in translating RPGs and doing QA for them will do that to you :D

 

@Gentlemanloser

That's actually a very valid point, you could argue that Skyfire does nothing at all.

 

Here's another thing, turning the argument around. Imagine a unit of Tau who ignore Snaps when firing Overwatch. But Skyfire forces you to fire Snaps at infantry. What happens when that unit fires a Quad gun at a charging Infantry unit? What if that charging unit is an FMC? What if either of them is Invisible?

It's a train wreck, really.

[Raeven]

Basically, it seems that GW wrote rules not to override Snap Shot, but instead to override the specific conditions that cause snap shots.  So, unless the rule mentions a specific condition, it cannot bypass the Snap Shot restriction.

 

PotMS is specific to the Vehicle rules that restrict the number of Full BS weapons you fire.

 

Skyfire is specific to Flyers.

 

etc etc..