CoffeeGrunt Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 On 6/30/2014 at 10:06 AM, Kastor Krieg said: Here's another thing, turning the argument around. Imagine a unit of Tau who ignore Snaps when firing Overwatch. But Skyfire forces you to fire Snaps at infantry. What happens when that unit fires a Quad gun at a charging Infantry unit? What if that charging unit is an FMC? What if either of them is Invisible? It's a train wreck, really. However, such a unit doesn't exist and thus no problem exists. Tau may also choose whether to have Skyfire or not for each shooting attack, so it's further mooted. As a result, the unit fires Snap Shots as normal. As the condition forcing Snap Shots is not Hard to Hit, Skyfire cannot override it as it doesn't integrate with Overwatch in the same way. If they're Invisible, they still Snap Shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Quote Basically, it seems that GW wrote rules not to override Snap Shot, but instead to override the specific conditions that cause snap shots. So, unless the rule mentions a specific condition, it cannot bypass the Snap Shot restriction. PotMS is specific to the Vehicle rules that restrict the number of Full BS weapons you fire. Skyfire is specific to Flyers. etc etc.. Totally the intention. But the RAW for over riding Snap Shots is to specifically state they over ride the Snap Shot itself, and not whatever might cuase you to have to Snap Shot int he first place. It's an extra layer, that wasn't necessary. Writing the rules something like the following would have made them much more robust, and easier to understand. (totally off the top of my head and condensed! ) Hard to hit: if the Target of a Shooting Attack is a zooming Flyer, all To-Hit rolls must be Snap Shots Snap Shot: If the To-hit roll must be a Snap Shot, in order to either Modify the BS a Snap Shot is taken at, or to Ignore having to make a Snap Shot entirely, a rule must specifically state it is allowed to modify or ignore Snap Shots Skyfire: The shooting unit can ignore Snap Shots caused by the Hard to Hit rule only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 On 6/30/2014 at 10:11 AM, CoffeeGrunt said: On 6/30/2014 at 10:06 AM, Kastor Krieg said: Here's another thing, turning the argument around. Imagine a unit of Tau who ignore Snaps when firing Overwatch. But Skyfire forces you to fire Snaps at infantry. What happens when that unit fires a Quad gun at a charging Infantry unit? What if that charging unit is an FMC? What if either of them is Invisible? It's a train wreck, really. However, such a unit doesn't exist and thus no problem exists. Tau may also choose whether to have Skyfire or not for each shooting attack, so it's further mooted. As a result, the unit fires Snap Shots as normal. As the condition forcing Snap Shots is not Hard to Hit, Skyfire cannot override it as it doesn't integrate with Overwatch in the same way. If they're Invisible, they still Snap Shot. Of course it does exist. Markerlights. On 6/30/2014 at 10:18 AM, Gentlemanloser said: Quote Basically, it seems that GW wrote rules not to override Snap Shot, but instead to override the specific conditions that cause snap shots. So, unless the rule mentions a specific condition, it cannot bypass the Snap Shot restriction. PotMS is specific to the Vehicle rules that restrict the number of Full BS weapons you fire. Skyfire is specific to Flyers. etc etc.. Totally the intention. But the RAW for over riding Snap Shots is to specifically state they over ride the Snap Shot itself, and not whatever might cuase you to have to Snap Shot int he first place. It's an extra layer, that wasn't necessary. Writing the rules something like the following would have made them much more robust, and easier to understand. (totally off the top of my head and condensed! ) Hard to hit: if the Target of a Shooting Attack is a zooming Flyer, all To-Hit rolls must be Snap Shots Snap Shot: If the To-hit roll must be a Snap Shot, in order to either Modify the BS a Snap Shot is taken at, or to Ignore having to make a Snap Shot entirely, a rule must specifically state it is allowed to modify or ignore Snap Shots Skyfire: The shooting unit can ignore Snap Shots caused by the Hard to Hit rule only. Yeah, but as it is, Skyfire allows full BS vs three model types, else Snap Shots. So it refers to Snap Shots (requirement fulfilled), while modifying any effect that caused Snap Shots in the first place, regardless of the source effect itself, provided it's on a Flyer / FMC / Skimmer. Which is not only stupid, but also redundant (Skimmers, really?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Quote Yeah, but as it is, Skyfire allows full BS vs three model types, else Snap Shots. Where does Skyfire specifically state you can ignore Snap Shots? It doesn't. That's a property of anyother rule, Hard to Hit. The rule that actually imposes the Snap Shot. Technically, Skyfire can't modify any Snap Shots a zxooming Flier might impose, as it doesn't specifically state it does. (The other side of the coin is that a zooming flirer doesn't impose a Snap Shot. Yet it does, becuase it's zooming. But it doesn't becuase the shooting unit has Skyfire. But Skyfire can't modify a Snap Shot. But there isn't a Snap shot. But a Zooming flier imposes a Snap Shot....) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Quote Of course it does exist. Markerlights. It doesn't, Markerlights do not ignore Snap Shots, they may merely increase the BS you make them at. Templates still cannot be fired in this way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Another problem. Because if it's fired at anything else than BS1, it's not a Snap Shot :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 It is, because Templates cannot be fired at all, regardless of Markerlights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Nope, because a Snap Shot by definition reduces to EXACTLY BS1. If it's BS2+, it doesn't conform to Snap Shot definition anymore, hence all the rest also is void and null. It's not a Snap Shot anymore, just a BS2+ shot. Yeah, it's convoluted and stupid, but that's the RAW of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 And then the rules for Markerlights allow you to make Snap Shots at BS2+ by editing them. Codex overrides Rulebook. It also specifically says that you may not fire weapons that could not be fire as Snap Shots normally, regardless of this. Please read the rules before commenting on them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 On 6/30/2014 at 12:54 PM, Kastor Krieg said: Nope, because a Snap Shot by definition reduces to EXACTLY BS1. If it's BS2+, it doesn't conform to Snap Shot definition anymore, hence all the rest also is void and null. It's not a Snap Shot anymore, just a BS2+ shot. Yeah, it's convoluted and stupid, but that's the RAW of it. Um, where exactly is that written? Page numbers and reference points (for eBookers), please. Last time I read the Snap Shot rule it didn't say it was no longer a Snap Shot if it was no longer BS 1, in fact, it only allows provisions from stopping it being the end absolute, such as in the Markerlight's case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 A BS2 Snap Shot is still a Snap Shot. Just becuase you can up the BS doesn't mean you can now shoot Templates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3733423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 The world is flat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3734406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Quote Typher" post="3734406" timestamp="1404234871"] The world is flat.And 6 ft x 4 ft. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3734411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 As far as I can tell, the only thing the Skyfire rule does in and of itself is force you to fire snap shots at all non flyer/fmc/skimmer targets. The hard to hit rule is what allows Skyfire shots to not be subject to snap shots at flyer/fmc in zoom/swoop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3734427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 On 7/1/2014 at 5:40 PM, Teetengee said: As far as I can tell, the only thing the Skyfire rule does in and of itself is force you to fire snap shots at all non flyer/fmc/skimmer targets. The hard to hit rule is what allows Skyfire shots to not be subject to snap shots at flyer/fmc in zoom/swoop. That would be correct. On 7/1/2014 at 5:25 PM, Quixus said: The world is flat.And 6 ft x 4 ft. And "all these squares make a circle..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3734513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 On 7/1/2014 at 7:15 PM, Kristoff said: And "all these squares make a circle..."Wrong game, but yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3734801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 On 7/2/2014 at 4:15 AM, Quixus said: On 7/1/2014 at 7:15 PM, Kristoff said: And "all these squares make a circle..."Wrong game, but yes. No, not a game at all, but a team of stars is involved... Four of them, in fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3734802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 On 7/1/2014 at 5:14 PM, [TA]Typher said: The world is flat. The part where you standing on is indeed flat, them guys in the victorian age where pretty smart you know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3735024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 On 7/2/2014 at 4:17 AM, Kristoff said: On 7/2/2014 at 4:15 AM, Quixus said: On 7/1/2014 at 7:15 PM, Kristoff said: And "all these squares make a circle..."Wrong game, but yes. No, not a game at all, but a team of stars is involved... Four of them, in fact. I don't get it. I thought you were talking about D&D where circles and spheres are composed of 5 ft squares/cubes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3735065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Can this be kept on-topic please. D&D, "world is flat" comments and Victorian physics are not in any way relevant to the rules of 40k.Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3735104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 you shoot at fliers and fmcs at snap shotsky fire lets you fire at full BS vs those targetsa invisable target is always snap shotted at regardless of other rules or issuesThere is no other way it will work and my advice is good luck getting a opponent to want to play this house rule interpretation of the rulebook... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3735334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 On 7/2/2014 at 7:34 PM, Axagoras said: you shoot at fliers, skimmers and fmcs at snap shot Skimmers do not have Hard To Hit, so are only Snap Shot at if Invisible or other affects are on the Shooter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3735651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 realized the mistake after I had left... I know that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293101-skyfire-vs-invisibility/page/2/#findComment-3736077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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