Skyfire vs Invisibility

[CoffeeGrunt]

Here's another thing, turning the argument around. Imagine a unit of Tau who ignore Snaps when firing Overwatch. But Skyfire forces you to fire Snaps at infantry. What happens when that unit fires a Quad gun at a charging Infantry unit? What if that charging unit is an FMC? What if either of them is Invisible?

It's a train wreck, really.

 

However, such a unit doesn't exist and thus no problem exists. Tau may also choose whether to have Skyfire or not for each shooting attack, so it's further mooted. As a result, the unit fires Snap Shots as normal. As the condition forcing Snap Shots is not Hard to Hit, Skyfire cannot override it as it doesn't integrate with Overwatch in the same way. If they're Invisible, they still Snap Shot.

[Gentlemanloser]

Basically, it seems that GW wrote rules not to override Snap Shot, but instead to override the specific conditions that cause snap shots. So, unless the rule mentions a specific condition, it cannot bypass the Snap Shot restriction.

PotMS is specific to the Vehicle rules that restrict the number of Full BS weapons you fire.

Skyfire is specific to Flyers.

etc etc..

Totally the intention.

But the RAW for over riding Snap Shots is to specifically state they over ride the Snap Shot itself, and not whatever might cuase you to have to Snap Shot int he first place.

It's an extra layer, that wasn't necessary.

Writing the rules something like the following would have made them much more robust, and easier to understand. (totally off the top of my head and condensed! )

Hard to hit: if the Target of a Shooting Attack is a zooming Flyer, all To-Hit rolls must be Snap Shots

Snap Shot: If the To-hit roll must be a Snap Shot, in order to either Modify the BS a Snap Shot is taken at, or to Ignore having to make a Snap Shot entirely, a rule must specifically state it is allowed to modify or ignore Snap Shots

Skyfire: The shooting unit can ignore Snap Shots caused by the Hard to Hit rule only.

[Kastor Krieg]

Here's another thing, turning the argument around. Imagine a unit of Tau who ignore Snaps when firing Overwatch. But Skyfire forces you to fire Snaps at infantry. What happens when that unit fires a Quad gun at a charging Infantry unit? What if that charging unit is an FMC? What if either of them is Invisible?

It's a train wreck, really.

However, such a unit doesn't exist and thus no problem exists. Tau may also choose whether to have Skyfire or not for each shooting attack, so it's further mooted. As a result, the unit fires Snap Shots as normal. As the condition forcing Snap Shots is not Hard to Hit, Skyfire cannot override it as it doesn't integrate with Overwatch in the same way. If they're Invisible, they still Snap Shot.

Of course it does exist. Markerlights.

Basically, it seems that GW wrote rules not to override Snap Shot, but instead to override the specific conditions that cause snap shots. So, unless the rule mentions a specific condition, it cannot bypass the Snap Shot restriction.

PotMS is specific to the Vehicle rules that restrict the number of Full BS weapons you fire.

Skyfire is specific to Flyers.

etc etc..

Totally the intention.

But the RAW for over riding Snap Shots is to specifically state they over ride the Snap Shot itself, and not whatever might cuase you to have to Snap Shot int he first place.

It's an extra layer, that wasn't necessary.

Writing the rules something like the following would have made them much more robust, and easier to understand. (totally off the top of my head and condensed! )

Hard to hit: if the Target of a Shooting Attack is a zooming Flyer, all To-Hit rolls must be Snap Shots

Snap Shot: If the To-hit roll must be a Snap Shot, in order to either Modify the BS a Snap Shot is taken at, or to Ignore having to make a Snap Shot entirely, a rule must specifically state it is allowed to modify or ignore Snap Shots

Skyfire: The shooting unit can ignore Snap Shots caused by the Hard to Hit rule only.

Yeah, but as it is, Skyfire allows full BS vs three model types, else Snap Shots. So it refers to Snap Shots (requirement fulfilled), while modifying any effect that caused Snap Shots in the first place, regardless of the source effect itself, provided it's on a Flyer / FMC / Skimmer.

Which is not only stupid, but also redundant (Skimmers, really?).

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Yeah, but as it is, Skyfire allows full BS vs three model types, else Snap Shots.

 

Where does Skyfire specifically state you can ignore Snap Shots?

 

It doesn't.

 

That's a property of anyother rule, Hard to Hit.  The rule that actually imposes the Snap Shot.

 

Technically, Skyfire can't modify any Snap Shots a zxooming Flier might impose, as it doesn't specifically state it does.

 

(The other side of the coin is that a zooming flirer doesn't impose a Snap Shot.  Yet it does, becuase it's zooming.  But it doesn't becuase the shooting unit has Skyfire.  But Skyfire can't modify a Snap Shot.  But there isn't a Snap shot.  But a Zooming flier imposes a Snap Shot....)

[CoffeeGrunt]

 

 

Of course it does exist. Markerlights.

 

It doesn't, Markerlights do not ignore Snap Shots, they may merely increase the BS you make them at. Templates still cannot be fired in this way.

[Kastor Krieg]

Another problem. Because if it's fired at anything else than BS1, it's not a Snap Shot :D

[CoffeeGrunt]

It is, because Templates cannot be fired at all, regardless of Markerlights.

[Kastor Krieg]

Nope, because a Snap Shot by definition reduces to EXACTLY BS1. If it's BS2+, it doesn't conform to Snap Shot definition anymore, hence all the rest also is void and null. It's not a Snap Shot anymore, just a BS2+ shot.

 

Yeah, it's convoluted and stupid, but that's the RAW of it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

And then the rules for Markerlights allow you to make Snap Shots at BS2+ by editing them. Codex overrides Rulebook. It also specifically says that you may not fire weapons that could not be fire as Snap Shots normally, regardless of this. Please read the rules before commenting on them.

[Kristoff]

Nope, because a Snap Shot by definition reduces to EXACTLY BS1. If it's BS2+, it doesn't conform to Snap Shot definition anymore, hence all the rest also is void and null. It's not a Snap Shot anymore, just a BS2+ shot.

 

Yeah, it's convoluted and stupid, but that's the RAW of it.

Um, where exactly is that written? Page numbers and reference points (for eBookers), please. Last time I read the Snap Shot rule it didn't say it was no longer a Snap Shot if it was no longer BS 1, in fact, it only allows provisions from stopping it being the end absolute, such as in the Markerlight's case.

[Gentlemanloser]

A BS2 Snap Shot is still a Snap Shot.

 

Just becuase you can up the BS doesn't mean you can now shoot Templates.

[[TA]Typher]

The world is flat.

[Quixus]

Typher" post="3734406" timestamp="1404234871"]

 

The world is flat.And 6 ft x 4 ft.

[Teetengee]

As far as I can tell, the only thing the Skyfire rule does in and of itself is force you to fire snap shots at all non flyer/fmc/skimmer targets. The hard to hit rule is what allows Skyfire shots to not be subject to snap shots at flyer/fmc in zoom/swoop.

[Kristoff]

As far as I can tell, the only thing the Skyfire rule does in and of itself is force you to fire snap shots at all non flyer/fmc/skimmer targets. The hard to hit rule is what allows Skyfire shots to not be subject to snap shots at flyer/fmc in zoom/swoop.

That would be correct.

 

The world is flat.And 6 ft x 4 ft.

And "all these squares make a circle..."

[Quixus]

And "all these squares make a circle..."

Wrong game, but yes.

[Kristoff]

 

And "all these squares make a circle..."

Wrong game, but yes.

 

No, not a game at all, but a team of stars is involved... Four of them, in fact.

[Spacefrisian]

The world is flat.

The part where you standing on is indeed flat, them guys in the victorian age where pretty smart you know.

[Quixus]

 

 

And "all these squares make a circle..."

Wrong game, but yes.

 

No, not a game at all, but a team of stars is involved... Four of them, in fact.

 

I don't get it. I thought you were talking about D&D where circles and spheres are composed of 5 ft squares/cubes.

[Dam13n]

Can this be kept on-topic please. D&D, "world is flat" comments and Victorian physics are not in any way relevant to the rules of 40k.

Thanks.

[Axagoras]

you shoot at fliers and fmcs at snap shot

sky fire lets you fire at full BS vs those targets

a invisable target is always snap shotted at regardless of other rules or issues

There is no other way it will work and my advice is good luck getting a opponent to want to play this house rule interpretation of the rulebook...

[Kristoff]

you shoot at fliers, skimmers and fmcs at snap shot

 

Skimmers do not have Hard To Hit, so are only Snap Shot at if Invisible or other affects are on the Shooter.

[Axagoras]

realized the mistake after I had left... I know that...