So tell me about the Wolves

[Kilofix]

So tell me about the Wolves; Terminators and / or Drop Pods.... anything interesting - tactics, fluff, modeling.

 

Also - anything interesting pre-heresy.

 

Thanks!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Kilofix, there are ample sources on the net which gives very extensive history regarding Space Wolves, such as those on Lexicanum Wiki and Warhammer Wikia. Kindly check those out first.

 

If I were to give you the short story about the Wolves, we look like barbarians, smell like barbarians, think like barbarians, eat like barbarians, BUT we don't fight like barbarians. We're as disciplined and cunning, if not more, than conventional Space Marines. And we're one of the few chapters that still cares for the little people of the Imperium, although we were not always like that pre-heresy. We uphold honor greatly, starting from personal, to pack, to Great Company, then to the whole chapter.

 

That's my take on the Wolves and why I collect/paint/play them.

[Toasterfree]

Space Vikings with cow bell, more cow bell. Even more cow bell.

[Kilofix]

Kilofix, there are ample sources on the net which gives very extensive history regarding Space Wolves, such as those on Lexicanum Wiki and Warhammer Wikia. Kindly check those out first.

 

If I were to give you the short story about the Wolves, we look like barbarians, smell like barbarians, think like barbarians, eat like barbarians, BUT we don't fight like barbarians. We're as disciplined and cunning, if not more, than conventional Space Marines. And we're one of the few chapters that still cares for the little people of the Imperium, although we were not always like that pre-heresy. We uphold honor greatly, starting from personal, to pack, to Great Company, then to the whole chapter.

 

That's my take on the Wolves and why I collect/paint/play them.

I apologize, I should have been clearer in my original request. I've read a significant amount about the Wolves; the HH books, the SW Codex, etc.

 

I'm not looking for basic info.

 

I'm thinking about doing Wolves as my '14 Q4 project (after ETL III) but I wanted to get more personal opinions about the Wolves to get a better sense of what those who are 'close' to them feel about them - with regards to playstyle (tactics), fluff, etc.

 

Your comments about discipline, honor, care, etc. help - thanks!

[Kasper_Hawser]

No worries.

 

I guess I will try to answer your question to the best of my fluff knowledge according to what you mentioned first: discipline, honour, care.

 

Discipline - As mentioned before, the Wolves do NOT fight like barbarians. They are profesional warriors who know how to use their bolters, chainswords and other weapons effectively not just individually but as a pack. Great emphasis is placed on the pack because that is where all Space Wolves will spend the rest of their lives until they're either dead or promoted. That being said, each pack is disciplined enough to follow battle plans of a bigger battle field commanded by a Wolf Lord or equivalent. It's just that each pack probably has a great deal of autonomy and freedom in HOW to achieve their objectives. Whereas a normal Space Marine will probably the Codex Astartes to the letter, as the Codex does try to list down every single possible action and strategy, a Wolf Lord will simply command his Grey Hunter packs to go for their objectives. How they accomplish it is totally up to them. You don't give a pack total instructions from Step 1 - 10 to do, they will REALLY resent that, Wolf Lord's command or no. A Grey Hunter pack that survives long enough to be a pack will have minimum a century of experience, they really hate micromanagement from higher ups. 

 

Of course there are certain rules they adhere, which is where the discussion about Honour comes in. Like I mention, honour starts from personal, then pack, then Great Company and finally the Chapter. A Space Wolf aspirant will most likely earn his battle honour through glorious combat and grit when he was a mortal, which means he would have a sense of personal honour (mostly about killing big stuff) before being selected by the nearest Wolf Priest. Once he goes survives gene implantation, he then has to survive training. Here he is most likely placed in Blood Claw packs lead by a Wolf Guard, where he first learns to value comradeship above his own personal goals. The Ragnar Blackmane novels is a clear example on this: Ragnar was selected along with a tribal enemy. It took him a long time to realise that his old tribal prejudices had been superceded by the importance of the pack in both survival and comradeship. With that, the pack becomes stronger as he now values the pack above individual yet not giving up his own personal brand of awesomeness. Here I think I've answer your question regarding CARE in regards to pack at least.

 

And then later, he and his pack would fight with the Great Company, where he would eventually, earn his place among the Wolf Lords. His rapid rise though criticised, is mostly silenced due to his great leadership, which while bordering on the insane, are extremely effective and starkly contrast with the surprising intelligence and tactical genius of Ragnar. From here, Ragnar now knows his place as part of the CHAPTER and values it above his own self, pack, and even Great Company.

 

Hope my ramblings made sense.

 

Addendum: as of the 41st Millenium, the Wolves are renowned for their willingness to fight for the common Imperial citizen, even while being cynical of the tyrannical state of the Imperium. First Battle of Armageddon clearly demonstrates this, not just in the 5th ed codex, but also the book "Emperor's Gift", where the battle is described from the POV of a Grey Knight.

 

However, back in the great crusade/heresy days, the legion's reputation was somewhat darker. They were basically an "at all cost" and "total war" army. They took actions that ensured victory, and thought little of the consequences as long as victory was achieved. Nevermind that the victory meant that the entire planet is destroyed and rendered uninhabitable or that the entire enemy fleet is destroyed even after trying to surrender (read Prospero Burns). According to that book, most Imperial commanders were reluctant to ask them for help.  (similar to 40K Imperial Guard reluctance to ask for Blood Angel successors chapters, having gotten wind of their bloodthirsty circumstances).

 

Their reputation, though well deserved, hides the true quality of their troops and battle organisation, which differs little from their 40K counterparts, except that the Legion was bigger then. They were also disciplined and tactically flexible, along with the usual bravery of normal Astartes. And if you can believe this as an advantage, they also were aware of the dangers of the warp, rather than being conned and taken unawares when facing chaos daemons.

 

I won't comment on the "Emperor's executioner's" status, as that is another whole can of worms, but for now, I'll say preheresy Space Wolves maybe less heroic sounding, yet every bit as cunning, disciplined and flexible as 40K. Heck, preheresy Wolves may even have the same technological levels as current wolves without the rest of the Astartes fancy weapons such as volkite, graviton and other exotic weapons.

 

Makes me wonder why they didn't stick Bjorn into a Contemptor though, which they should have ample amounts back then.

 

As for tactics, well, I only started my Wolves this February and so far I've been lost all but one of my games (mostly in 6th Ed but one in 7th Ed). so sadly I'm not good to give tactics advice, sorry, still learning myself.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Makes me wonder why they didn't stick Bjorn into a Contemptor though, which they should have ample amounts back then.

That one's simple, Contemptor Hulls have always had a dark reputation amongst the Wolves, acquiring a repuatation for excess and unwarranted savagry. The Wolves aren't going to stick Bjorn, chosen of Russ and second high Jarl of the Rout, in such a darkly reputed machine.

 

Slightly more on topic, despite their outward appearance, the Wolves are among the truest of Astartes. They fight for the Emperor, their brothers, and their comrades, who don't even need to Astartes. This is highlighted really well in The Emperor's Gift, where sticking to their principles and disputing the Inquisitorial purge of the Guard who fought on Armageddon results in full blown war with both the Grey Knights and Red Hunters. Both of whom come off as Inquisitorial lackeys unworthy of the legacy of the Astartes imo (although the Knights to do better in my estimation than the Hunters). While not forcing the issue would've been sensible, and Logan's stand was undeniably honour before reason, that for me is the essence of the Astartes. Which, combined with the Viking aesthetic (which I'm a sucker for) is why the Wolves are my favourite Marines.

 

In fact most of my favourite Marine Chapters have flavours of that idea, Wolves, Salamanders, Executioners, all have put themselves at some form of disadvantage/vulnerability because to their word and honour.

[Valerian]

 

Makes me wonder why they didn't stick Bjorn into a Contemptor though, which they should have ample amounts back then.

That one's simple, Contemptor Hulls have always had a dark reputation amongst the Wolves, acquiring a repuatation for excess and unwarranted savagry. The Wolves aren't going to stick Bjorn, chosen of Russ and second high Jarl of the Rout, in such a darkly reputed machine.

 

 

Actually, the answer is simpler even than that.  Bjorn precedes the invention of Contemptor dreadnoughts by ~ 20 years. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Makes me wonder why they didn't stick Bjorn into a Contemptor though, which they should have ample amounts back then.

That one's simple, Contemptor Hulls have always had a dark reputation amongst the Wolves, acquiring a repuatation for excess and unwarranted savagry. The Wolves aren't going to stick Bjorn, chosen of Russ and second high Jarl of the Rout, in such a darkly reputed machine.

Actually, the answer is simpler even than that. Bjorn precedes the invention of Contemptor dreadnoughts by ~ 20 years.

Well yes, that too.

But at least there's a halfway decent fluff explanation as well .

[Daddywarcrimes]

Except that Bjorn is still alive and walking around when the Contemptors show up.  He's nearly killed by a traitor Contemptor at one point in the Heresy, so there's no reason to suspect that he couldn't have been interred in one.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I'm pretty sure Valerian was referring to real world time, where Bjorn has been around much longer than Contemptors.

 

You're right though, Bjorn could have been put in a Contemptor, but the Wolves wouldn't put the renowned 2nd High Jarl into a machine they attributed such a poor reputation to.

[Valerian]

Yeah, I'm talking about real-world time, not in-game time.  The Bjorn model was released, when, around 1994?  His associated background material (the Studio material) was provided then, as well, if not a little earlier.  I don't remember exactly when Forge World started selling Contemptor models, and making rules for them, but it wasn't that many years ago. 

[Vash113]

It really helps to ask more specific questions to get specific answers. But as to the general attitude of the Space Wolves I find it interesting to see how much the players reflect the fiction material of the chapter. Ultramarines players act like Ultramarines, Dark Angels players act like Dark Angels, and Space Wolves players act like Space Wolves. We're a fairly irreverent bunch, quick to anger, quicker to mirth, and from a wide variety of backgrounds and attitudes, and that's pretty much the Space Wolves.

 

Tactics wise a wide variety of play styles are effective with the Space Wolf codex. Grey Hunters are point for point some of the best infantry in the game, with bolt pistol, bolter and close combat weapon all in one, combined with acute senses and counter-attack they are an excellent unit, as well as versatile. Attach a Wolf Guard leader to give them higher leadership and a second special close combat weapon, or keep it a 10 man unit to get a second special ranged weapon. Long Fangs are nasty with split fire and being able to take 5 heavy weapons per pack over the standard 4 of Devastators. Though the lack of ablative wounds can be irksome. Wolf Guard can be equipped for a wide variety of roles, with bikes, jump packs, close combat weapons, plasma pistols, even Terminator Armor. And our Terminator armored Wolf Guard can be assigned to a variety of packs, providing a 2+ save and Storm Shield 3+ invulnerable as a shield to Grey Hunters or Long Fangs, a combi-weapon added to Wolf Scouts, or a higher attacks characteristic with Wolf Claws to provide some extra punch to Grey Hunters. Thunderwolf Cavalry are very heavy hitters and our ability to take more than the usual number of HQs allows us to sprinkle around better leadership and combat capabilities than most space marine codexies. Wolf Scouts ability to OBEL makes flanking attacks highly effective and the Saga of the Hunter allows Grey Hunters to arrive on the flank with outflank, a potentially very useful tactic. The only significant lack in the codex currently is air cover, but allies can solve that problem fairly well, and fortifications can provide some nice anti-air weaponry for cheap.

 

Fluff wise the Space Wolves are one of the more unique forces out there. As humanitarian as the Salamanders, as unorthodox as the Black Templars, boasting one of the most fortified Fortress Monasteries in the galaxy, lots of characters, battles, history and lore. Check this out for more info: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254833-space-wolves-a-comprehensive-history/?do=findComment&comment=3104658

 

Hope that helps some.

[Kilofix]

Nature wise:

 

Was there anything major that change between Pre-Heresy and Post-Heresy Wolves that would have made them more humanitatian?

I've read Prospero Burns, is there another book that illustrates the Wolves discipline in combat?

 

Combat wise:

 

I've read the Codex and I understand the (reverse) progression from Blood Claw - Grey Hunter - Long Fang / Scout but per fluff, is there a particular unit type that the Wolves use in larger numbers?

Per fluff, how often do Wolves make use of Armor, and Jump Jets?

Also, per fluff, are Wolf Guard usually in PA or in TDA?

 

 

Thanks for all the info.

Btw, can't wait for an HH book with Wolves to come out.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Battle of the Fang by Chris Wraight  is a good look at the Wolves and their metamorphosis. 

 

all the questions on the combat styles of the Wolves are tough to answer, because their is not any set style. Each Great Company fights in manner desired by it's Wolf Lord. The attitude of the Wolf Lord will determine the make up of the company as well as it's reliance on armor and such.

 

 

WLK

[Vash113]

Nature wise:

 

Was there anything major that change between Pre-Heresy and Post-Heresy Wolves that would have made them more humanitatian?

I've read Prospero Burns, is there another book that illustrates the Wolves discipline in combat?

 

Combat wise:

 

I've read the Codex and I understand the (reverse) progression from Blood Claw - Grey Hunter - Long Fang / Scout but per fluff, is there a particular unit type that the Wolves use in larger numbers?

Per fluff, how often do Wolves make use of Armor, and Jump Jets?

Also, per fluff, are Wolf Guard usually in PA or in TDA?

 

 

Thanks for all the info.

Btw, can't wait for an HH book with Wolves to come out.

 

Battle for the Fang is a much better representation of the wolves than Prospero Burns IMHO. As for changes, there were some. The armor changed from a darker stone grey to a lighter blue grey. Things like the tooled leather masks and specifically numbered great companies declined into none use, but that's about it. There's nothing I've seen to suggest the behavior of the wolves, including how they deal with unaugmented humans, changed significantly from the Great Crusade to the current era.

 

Unit wise each Great Company will generally include a larger number of Grey Hunters than anything else, with a smaller number of Blood Claws and then 10-20 each of Wolf Guard, Long Fangs, Wolf Scouts and so forth. Skyclaws and Swiftclaws (Blood Claw Jump Troops and Bikers respectively) will generally depend on each Wolf Lord and might be present in small or larger numbers depending on the favored tactics of each commander.

 

Generally the Space Wolves don't use many Land Speeders or Jump Troops, but there's no reason your Great Company couldn't be an exception to that norm. Armor will again depend heavily on the Wolf Lord in command, some like Erik Morkai will likely not use as much armor, while others like Egil Ironwolf will have tons of heavy armor units like Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders, it just depends.

 

With Wolf Guard and Terminator Armor it will depend on how many suits the Wolf Lord has access too. It could be as many as 20, or as few as 2. It will also depend on the character of the Wolf Guard themselves. If your Great Company's Wolf Guard prefer Jump Packs or Bikes, or sneaking around leading Wolf Scouts, then obviously there won't be many in Terminator Armor, alternately if you love it then there's little reason not to field a dozen Terminators if you want.

[Valerian]

You may also want to check out these Space Wolves Resources.

 

V

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

There's nothing I've seen to suggest the behavior of the wolves, including how they deal with unaugmented humans, changed significantly from the Great Crusade to the current era.

I don't know. I can't really see the Crusade-era VI, pre-Prospero, making a stand over the fate of human soldiery and citizenry like Logan did at Armageddon.

[Bulldogging]

 

 

There's nothing I've seen to suggest the behavior of the wolves, including how they deal with unaugmented humans, changed significantly from the Great Crusade to the current era.

I don't know. I can't really see the Crusade-era VI, pre-Prospero, making a stand over the fate of human soldiery and citizenry like Logan did at Armageddon.

 

 

I agree with Logan's wolves being quite different than Russ'. Reading Prospero Burns/Thousand Sons actually had me losing interest in the Wolves. The way they acted is quite different than the actions of modern times like Logan in the Battle for Armageddon. An example is how they behaved in Blood of Asaheim(modern current wolves), I have seen nothing in pre-heresy wolves that would be similar.

 

Battle of the Fang is also 2k years after the Heresy and Russ has been gone, so that's not really the same as Heresy wolves.

 

I'm a much bigger fan of modern Wolves, personally.

[Vash113]

Well the problem with the heresy wolves representations is we don't really have any good examples. Prospero Burns was entirely from the perspective of Hawser, and that's pretty much it for heresy wolves. A little bit in Scars, some short stories and audiobooks but not much else. Meanwhile for modern era we've got a lot more material. I'm not saying there are no differences but I don't really see any in the representations thus far. I haven't seen anything in the heresy material to suggest those wolves wouldn't do the same thing in the same situation as Logan's bunch, if given the chance.

 

It's not like there are many opportunities in the heresy material where the wolves are doing anything other than either crusading or fighting the traitors. However there are a few snippets that give some insight, Bjorn does go out of his way to rescue Hawser, and he's not the only one to do so, in Hunter's Moon the surviving member of the Watch Pack does apologize to the humans who saved him for his initial outburst and tries to make it up to them, something that does fit with the behavior of the modern wolves. In Unremembered Empire the Watch Pack there goes out of their way to protect Guilliman's mortal steward from Curze when they really didn't have to, again something that would fit with the behavior of modern wolves.

 

So I mean there may be future material to come out that gives us some examples of the heresy wolves being more careless with unaugmented mortals but I think it's too early to say definitively with the material we have to hand that the humanitarian attitude of the wolves is a modern convention.

 

EDIT: It's also important to note that perceived differences may be due to the different writing style of Abnett in Prospero Burns and the lack of any actual Space Wolf character perspectives. It's all observations from an outsider, a very different writing style from any of the other Space Wolf books, and I think that's probably where most of the perceived differences come from. Thinking back I can't picture any behavior, actions or particular words of the wolves in the heresy material that's substantively different from the modern wolves, aside from the more exaggerated style of the Ragnar series vs the more gritty style of the more recent books. I suppose the heresy wolves could be said to be a bit more formal, formality that waned and vanished by the time of Battle for the Fang, but as for tactics, politics, etc, I'm not so sure there are big changes. I mean crashing an orbital shipyard into a target city? Sounds like something Ragnar would do. Ambush the Night Haunter? Sounds like something Ragnar would try.

[Max_Dammit]

Also remember that in the heresy they where conquering so what they encountered didnt want to be part of the emperors plan, now they protect whats left, so they interact different with humans, I dont even think they ever went to a planet that was in control of the empire when on the crusade, why would they?

[Bulldogging]

I do agree it is probably just as likely to be the authors, and if it is, I hope Chris Wraight does a Heresy era book.

 

I do want to mention that you talked about Bjorn saving Hawser. It came across to me more as Bjorn slaughtering a :cuss ton of native Fenrisians for funsies/frustration. He definately was...WAY more thorough with his "rescue" than required..lol.

[Trevak Dal]

Remember that good non Xenos book Phil Kelly wrote before he went all Lady In the Water with the Chaos Space Marine codex?

That'd be the Space Wolves.  If you want to run a Khornate or undivided bent Chaos Space Marine army with drop pods, and no daemonic stuff-this is your army.  One of the last Loyalist books to get a 'free' upgrade (expect that to be gone soon) so that you could have a 10 man grey hunter squad with 2 plasma guns cheaper than you could say, have 10 csms with ubergrit (Bolters, Bolt Pistols and CCws) and 2 Plasma guns.

 

Remember how Chosen were in the Often Lauded Chaos codex?  That's how wolf guard are but better.

 

Viking Werewolves in Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.  Their planet is a very not-great place to live.  Basically, take all the Warhammer Fantasy Battle background about the Northmen and make an army about them.  In spaaaace, with less chaos and more smelling like wet dog and Wolf Relics.  It's funny to substitute another, unrelated animal in 'Wolf's place:  Like Walrus.

 

 

Weasel Claws.  Lemur Tooth necklace.  Thunder Toad.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

a completely legit opinion from a GREY KNIGHT player.

 

nothing else to see here.

 

WLK

[Trevak Dal]

Oh I played my Chaos using the Space Wolf codex (and won more often than I did with Chaos-more reliable tools in the arsenal than what I had for chaos) and the others complained because "you're using chaos for loyalists" so now that's not a problem when I'm hitting them with s6 ap3 attacks at initiative 6 with my terminators who have grenades-they can't be mad anymore